Accidental litters...

• 10-05-2008 1:50 PM

  Xeph Joined on 06-25-2006 Green Bay, WI Posts 1,802 Points 10

  Accidental litters... Reply Contact  ....That aren't the fault of the owner. So, the story goes that my friend (a new Welsh Springer Spaniel and English Cocker breeder) sent out her little black English Cocker bitch with a handler to be shown.  Said bitch goes into season, and guess what happens? She gets nailed by the handler's Welsh Springer male. So, now we have a bitch that is due to whelp at the end of October, and no homes lined up for these puppies.  The bitch owner is #1 upset that this happened at all, and #2 upset about the fact that she is going to have "Christmas Puppies".  She does not WANT Christmas puppies. On top of that, this same bitch just whelped a litter of Cocker babies 6 months ago (Her daughters are gorgeous x.x), so the breeder is worried about her health in that regard.  Since Welsh babies and English babies are about the same size when they are whelped, she is not all too concerned about having to do a C-Section (but she would if necessary).  I really feel for her...she's going to do the same for these puppies that she would any other litter, but is selling them at lowwwww prices (Just enough to cover her costs...and that probably won't even happen). She's trying to look on the bright side of things by trying to guess what colors she may get.  We all think that since the bitch is black, most likely her puppies will be all black or parti blacks....maybe some strange tri color (For those who don't know, Welsh Springers are Orange and White or Red and White)? I feel so bad, because this owner/breeder does everything right.  She health tests her dogs, and is very careful with her breedings, AND she hunts her dogs.  Her oldest Welsh bitch has her JH, her pet English male has his JH, and the Welsh father of the litter has his JH and is almost finished.  I can't remember if mom has her JH yet or not...don't think so, but I know the breeder will be after it...though this sets her back considerably :-( Doesn't that just stink?  Marcato Shepherds Where it's about function, not flash

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• 10-05-2008 2:51 PM

  In reply to Xeph

  brookcove Joined on 09-10-2007 Semora, North Carolina, USA Posts 4,717 Points 335

  Re: Accidental litters... Reply Contact  I wish to heaven that this were the only type of mixed cross that occurred.  I placed a foster dog with someone who had a Beagle and Aussie cross that was a similar situation.  He was a beautiful and healthy dog - and huge!  Genetics are funny things.  I wouldn't feel too awful about it.  I have a friend whose best young herding trial dog and go-to dog on the farm is the result of an accidental breeding between two youngsters. The Welsh color is the same as the gene that makes yellow labs, golden retrievers, and Irish setters.  So you would only get tri if the cocker carries it for some reason.  Probably they's mostly be solid yellow, with touches of white, with possibly a couple black and white or yellow and white (what cocker people would call parti).  Looking at body type, I think they'd look amazingly like field cockers.  If there were a yellow and white I'd want one for my mom!  She had a purebred cocker like that when she was a kid. I think she has little choice but to advertise and be very, very careful as to choosing the homes.  Becca Shouse: Irena Farm, Semora, NC Cord, Ted, Gus, Zhi, Maggie, Lynn, Lu, Min and Tully Waiting: Bubo & Ben "We didn't have a phone, and we couldn't call you!" Helen, AIDS orphan. Don't let them die of ignorance - WorldHelp.net "I-Dog Biggest Loser" Official Cheerleader/Mascot Start 09/15/08: 186.4 lbs Current 175.6 lbs

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• 10-05-2008 3:02 PM

  In reply to Xeph

  Chuffy Joined on 12-17-2006 UK Posts 5,799 Points 10

  Re: Accidental litters... Reply Contact That's a bummer, but it happens.... Did she know the bitch would go into season whil she was "away"? Is she going to keep the pups till after Xmas is over, to deter those impulse buyers and ensure the pup doesn't go hom amid the Xmas Chaos? "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." (Pratchett, Jingo) "I used to look at [my dog] Smokey and think, 'If you were a little smarter you could tell me what you were thinking,' and he'd look at me like he was saying, 'If you were a little smarter, I wouldn't have to.'" - Fred Jungclaus

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• 10-05-2008 4:36 PM

  In reply to Chuffy

  brookcove Joined on 09-10-2007 Semora, North Carolina, USA Posts 4,717 Points 335

  Re: Accidental litters... Reply Contact Oh yes, I forgot I was going to mention that.  We had a Border Collie Lab mixed litter in rescue who would have been nine weeks old the week of Christmas.  Instead of letting them go then, or even talking to anyone before then, I let them wean at a natural pace since I had the opportunity, didn't offer them for adoption until after Christmas, and held them until they were sixteen weeks old.  It meant that two all-black  puppies ended up with me until they were six MONTHS old, but they found wonderful homes too.  Those were the nicest set of puppies I've ever seen - one of them became a service dog for an autistic child. Becca Shouse: Irena Farm, Semora, NC Cord, Ted, Gus, Zhi, Maggie, Lynn, Lu, Min and Tully Waiting: Bubo & Ben "We didn't have a phone, and we couldn't call you!" Helen, AIDS orphan. Don't let them die of ignorance - WorldHelp.net "I-Dog Biggest Loser" Official Cheerleader/Mascot Start 09/15/08: 186.4 lbs Current 175.6 lbs

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• 10-06-2008 1:50 AM

  In reply to brookcove

  Xeph Joined on 06-25-2006 Green Bay, WI Posts 1,802 Points 10	Re: Accidental litters... Reply Contact I don't know Chuffy, but I DO know that she is very, very careful as to where her babies go, so even if they do go home around Christmas, they won't go anywhere bad.  She'll be selling everybody on spay/neuter and giving them the same contract as any of her other pet puppies. Marcato Shepherds Where it's about function, not flash
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• 10-06-2008 9:43 AM

  In reply to Xeph

  KarissaKS Joined on 06-01-2007 La Crosse, WI Posts 705 Points 795

  Re: Accidental litters... Reply Contact Just asking a question for my own knowledge --- can you not abort puppies?  In the horse world they can administer a drug that will cause the mare to abort unwanted pregnancies (such as when, say, a stallion jumps a fence).  They can also "pinch off" extra fetuses to avoid twins & triplets, so that the remaining foal will be viable. Why would a professional breeder not abort an unwanted litter?  It can't be good for one's reputation to have a mixed litter like this. Luke -- Lab/Shepherd (1-1-04) Open Versatility, EAC, EJC, TN-E, TG-E, HP-O Kaiser -- Alaskan Klee Kai (12-30-07) Future Agility Star!

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• 10-06-2008 9:56 AM

  In reply to Xeph

  rwbeagles Joined on 09-10-2007 DFW, TX Posts 15,466 Points 2,060

  Re: Accidental litters... Reply Contact Xeph why didn't she do the mismate shot? It has a couple risks but honestly? I sure would have given it a go...esp since the bitch in question has already given her some nice pups...make sure she at least KNOWS such a thing exists...if this were to occur again. Gina H. dog.community Moderator " Let's get it crunk upon, have fun upon...up in this dancery!"-Mary J. Blige

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• 10-06-2008 10:11 AM

  In reply to KarissaKS

  Liesje Joined on 03-02-2007 Grand Rapids, Michigan Posts 7,538 Points 850

  Re: Accidental litters... Reply Contact KarissaKS: Just asking a question for my own knowledge --- can you not abort puppies?  In the horse world they can administer a drug that will cause the mare to abort unwanted pregnancies (such as when, say, a stallion jumps a fence).  They can also "pinch off" extra fetuses to avoid twins & triplets, so that the remaining foal will be viable. Why would a professional breeder not abort an unwanted litter?  It can't be good for one's reputation to have a mixed litter like this.   That's what I was wondering.  I have heard of a few cases where good breeders have an oops litter but keep them and adopt them out to pet homes on spay/neuter contract and limited reg or not registered, but this was within the same breed, and even the same type (so honestly the pups were better quality than from most breeders, but it was just not a carefully planned litter as far as the breeder's goals). vankelderdogs.dutchbingo.net U-CH Alta-Tollhaus-Krieger Lamb Chop RA CL1-F CL1-R TT HIC TDI CGC ("Kenya", GSD) VPC's Coca-Cola CGC ("Coke", All American) Alta-Tollhaus' Bono ("Nikon", GSD)

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• 10-06-2008 10:21 AM

  In reply to Liesje

  rwbeagles Joined on 09-10-2007 DFW, TX Posts 15,466 Points 2,060

  Re: Accidental litters... Reply Contact it happens. Thinking one is infalible is the surest way to ensure it does. No one plans on things like this but sometimes things just happen. Not everyone is willing to risk the effects of the mismate shot or wants to spay their bitch (the only real way to abort pups in a bitch gone over 72 hours bred, and you cannot show a spayed bitch regardless). I know people in my breed that have other breeds where this has occured. Most often when they are out showing and the kennel help is there...or the chaos of christmas or bad weather. Stuff  happens. What matters to me, is how they handle things after the fact. Even rescues and shelters have accidental breedings occur...their advantage is that they can spay the girls...and not lose a whole arm of a line or genetic material doing so. Gina H. dog.community Moderator " Let's get it crunk upon, have fun upon...up in this dancery!"-Mary J. Blige

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• 10-06-2008 3:36 PM

  In reply to rwbeagles

  Xeph Joined on 06-25-2006 Green Bay, WI Posts 1,802 Points 10	Re: Accidental litters... Reply Contact The bitch was not in her care when the breeding happened.  She was out with a handler, so the mismate shot was not a viable option. Also, it won't really be the reputation of the breeder on the line here, but the reputation of the handler that had the bitch.   Marcato Shepherds Where it's about function, not flash
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• 10-06-2008 3:40 PM

  In reply to Xeph

  rwbeagles Joined on 09-10-2007 DFW, TX Posts 15,466 Points 2,060

  Re: Accidental litters... Reply Contact Xeph: The bitch was not in her care when the breeding happened.  She was out with a handler, so the mismate shot was not a viable option. vet's are on site at most shows...if not the yellow pages are only a click away lol. A vet could have been found..I don't really doubt that, esp since you have 48-72 hours. You can bet I'd advise one be found POST HASTE were it my bitch...and on that handler's dime, too. BUT, be that as it may yes the handlers rep will take a ding for certain...and deservedly so. Gina H. dog.community Moderator " Let's get it crunk upon, have fun upon...up in this dancery!"-Mary J. Blige

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• 10-06-2008 4:00 PM

  In reply to rwbeagles

  Xeph Joined on 06-25-2006 Green Bay, WI Posts 1,802 Points 10	Re: Accidental litters... Reply Contact  I can ask, but I believe that the bitch owner wasn't even notified that the bitch was pregnant until AFTER she was returned (which was a good chunk of time...a week or two) Marcato Shepherds Where it's about function, not flash
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• 10-06-2008 11:11 PM

  In reply to Xeph

  Stacita Joined on 08-20-2006 Sacramento, CA Posts 1,582 Points 30

  Re: Accidental litters... Reply Contact   Honestly, it's not a horrible match-up. I'd say the chances of getting a healthy puppy with a reasonable disposition are pretty good, and better than you'd find in most accidental matings much less purposeful BYB matings. My parents had a mixed breed with a similar background who was very, very healthy and an sweet dog. Perhaps your friend could work with a rescue to help find and screen homes for the puppies, with the adoption fee kept by the rescue.

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• 10-07-2008 12:11 AM

  In reply to Stacita

  whtsthfrequency Joined on 09-10-2007 Blacksburg, VA Posts 1,048 Points 200

  Re: Accidental litters... Reply Contact  You can technically "abort" puppies surgically if it's too late for the shot and you want to keep the bitch intact....but it's very unpleasant and can be dangerous. It's done the same way as a C-section....and then you just let the fetuses die on the table (or I think you may actually be able to give them a cardiac injection with euthanasia solution if they are big enough, but I am not sure about the ethics of such a procedure. I wouldn't like to do that.

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• 10-07-2008 12:18 AM

  In reply to whtsthfrequency

  Xeph Joined on 06-25-2006 Green Bay, WI Posts 1,802 Points 10	Re: Accidental litters... Reply Contact  It's already been decided that the puppies are going to be whelped, so it's just a matter of finding homes for them Marcato Shepherds Where it's about function, not flash
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