What does "feminism" mean to you?

• 10-06-2008 5:49 PM

  In reply to jenn52

  rwbeagles Joined on 09-10-2007 DFW, TX Posts 15,352 Points 2,035	Re: What does "feminism" mean to you? Reply Contact jenn52: And it's not just California, dual incomes are required all over the country.    depending on what you want, and what makes you comfortable...possibly true. But IMO Cali cost of living is borderline cray-zay. LOL Gina H. dog.community Moderator "I'll sleep when I'm dead, I said!"-The Cure
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• 10-06-2008 5:51 PM

  In reply to badrap

  rwbeagles Joined on 09-10-2007 DFW, TX Posts 15,352 Points 2,035

  Re: What does "feminism" mean to you? Reply Contact speaking to the topic perhaps the one single thing that turns me off is what others have mentioned...the seemingly anti male/man aspect that seems to be somehow permanently attached to it. Yes the extremists have taken that bit too far and it's gone so far that the word feminist and man hater sometimes get used interchangeably by JQP which is a shame. It wasn't about that, I don't think...or wasn't intended to be.   Gina H. dog.community Moderator "I'll sleep when I'm dead, I said!"-The Cure

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• 10-06-2008 5:56 PM

  In reply to rwbeagles

  Liesje Joined on 03-02-2007 Grand Rapids, Michigan Posts 7,441 Points 850

  Re: What does "feminism" mean to you? Reply Contact rwbeagles: cyclefiend2000: i never even considered that there was any option for any man You's general... The options a man/woman does or doesn't have are really dictated by him/her. If he/she wants to stay home and have kids, then he/she will find a partner that shares that vision. If he/she wants to work, and excel in his/her field and be supported by a partner who stays home and holds that fort down...he/she finds that partner. If BOTH parties want to excel achieve and have their kids in daycare or simply not have them, etc...both will seek each other out. If you both agree and have a shared vision of what each person will do or won't do then really it's not anything that speaks about either gender as a whole...but only that couple. If you are in a relationship with someone who makes you feel you have NO choice but to work OR to stay home...even tho it's not what you truly want? That's less about feminism and more about someone failing to realize that they deserve to be with someone who holds their wishes and plans as important as they do their own.     Thanks Gina.  That's exactly what I meant. You can probably live in west Michigan on a single income.  We do now.  Granted, I don't have kids yet, but I'm only making $34K b/c of WHO I work for (I can make double in the public schools) and together we have about $100K in student debt (only paying of mine at the moment, about $500/mo average).  You might not get two new cars and new cell phones every year and the big house you want, but it can be done.  Oh, and west Michigan has the worst housing market, worst economy, and highest unemployment.  So yeah if you're OK with that, the rent here's cheap! Personally, I can't imagine not ever working at least part time or volunteering, I think I'd go mad! vankelderdogs.dutchbingo.net U-CH Alta-Tollhaus-Krieger Lamb Chop RA CL1-F CL1-R TT HIC TDI CGC ("Kenya", GSD) VPC's Coca-Cola CGC ("Coke", All American) Alta-Tollhaus' Bono ("Nikon", GSD)

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• 10-06-2008 6:13 PM

  In reply to rwbeagles

  4HAND Joined on 05-28-2008 wisconsin Posts 267 Points 25

  Re: What does "feminism" mean to you? Reply Contact Don't forget,....to have a child or two or ten is a CHOICE.The partner you pick is a CHOICE.Not all that long ago in history many girls were married off in their teens to a partner not of their choosing to birth multiple children.I cannot believe that any woman in her right mind would choose that way of life over having to hold down a job to help pay for children she chose to bring into this world.Even if I'm bone weary after a 10 hour shift I could never view that kind of servitude as anything but barbaric. Tena Tena  Im not fat! Im big boned!....Eric Cartman, South Park

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• 10-06-2008 6:23 PM

  In reply to 4HAND

  rwbeagles Joined on 09-10-2007 DFW, TX Posts 15,352 Points 2,035

  Re: What does "feminism" mean to you? Reply Contact 4HAND: I cannot believe that any woman in her right mind would choose that way of life over having to hold down a job to help pay for children she chose to bring into this world Where is anyone choosing that? Some here have said they feel pressured to "do it all" by the women's movement. That doesn't mean they want to go back to a girdle and arranged marriages. It means they likely wish more women would be accepting of whatever lifestyle they choose and they'd not be pressured AT ALL. By any of the sexes, by society, etc. Could be wrong tho. Mind you I would look dynamite in a corset and Regency gown. Gina H. dog.community Moderator "I'll sleep when I'm dead, I said!"-The Cure

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• 10-06-2008 6:42 PM

  In reply to jenn52

  badrap Joined on 10-08-2006 maine, but living in dallas Posts 2,340 Points 115

  Re: What does "feminism" mean to you? Reply Contact jenn52:   Not to say, women shouldnt have the right to vote or go to school, because I think we should have those opportunities.  But as a 31 year old, I honestly don't understand what the women who brought about this feministic change to society were thinking....    As an educated woman, I constantly feel split because I'm supposed to be keeping up with the boys on jobs and raises but then at the same time I'm supposed to be a woman with kids and nuturing that side of life too.  I just don't think the trade off was a fair one.  I also think that feminism has changed the role of men, I think a lot of them have lost their God given role to protect and provide for women and family have gone out the window and I'm sure many of them are lost and confused as to what they are supposed to do.  It's changed family and relationship dynanmics, I am sure of that.  Woman don't need them anymore, they leave them after 30 years of marriage because things got too routine and they just don't need their paychecks anymore.......... On the same note as Glenda, I think society has become the trash that it is because of feminism,............... also wonder what femisnism has really brought us, because girls still go out looking like hookers to attract boys and get attention.  I don't understand how the Pussycat Dolls say they have girl power, because they are just using their bodies, isn't that the opposite point of feminism?  So maybe we haven't come as far as we thought? While I am greatful to have gone to school and to have grown up never feeling inferior or less capable and that we have the opportunities we do, I think they come at a very steep price.   Ok, ok , this is going a little too far IMHO.  "Feminism" absolutely CANNOT be blamed for the economic policies of the world that force both parents to work.  My mom didn't work because she WANTED to, she worked because she HAD to, and she expected equal pay while doing it.  THAT is the point.  If you MUST work, then you must get the same pay for the same job.  There is no reason to think that women deserve to be paid less for any reason whatsoever. I may have misread Glenda's post, but I didn't hear her blaming feminism for the downfall of society.  I heard her arguing with herself about whether it was all worth it. As to leaving a man after 30 years of marriage, how many MEN do this???  Plenty. It's certainly not a woman's duty to "stand by her man" in a crappy situation.  If your husband beats you now, we all assume that you would leave his sorry A**.  You can thank feminism for that.  50 years ago, you would have sufferred in silence and hidden your trips to the emergency room. I hear women on this forum saying, "oh you're better than that guy."  Thank feminism for THAT, too, because it has allowed women to exert some control over how we CHOOSE to be treated. You can thank feminism for your right to vote, and to go to school and have been educated, and for the fact that if you don't have children, that's completely ok-  you're neither a witch nor a ***, necessarily.   Feminism provided you with a choice and a voice to say, "I don't have to reproduce if I don't want to, and if I can't, I'm worth just as much as someone who can."  50 years ago you'd have been married off by now, and if you couldn't produce children, your husband might have divorced you for someone who could have. As to the Pussycat Dolls selling sexuality as empowerment, that may be the one thing in your post that I agree with.  It's a JOKE.  It creates the illusion of sexuality as a necessity for basic life function.  Without a doubt, sexuality is OUT OF CONTROL in this country- just look at those dang "Bratz" dolls... 70's era feminism, with the radicals and the bra-burning, might have pushed us a little too far over the edge.  But feminism isn't just about the 70's.  It's about world history and women demanding to be treated as people instead of property.

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• 10-06-2008 6:51 PM

  In reply to badrap

  whtsthfrequency Joined on 09-10-2007 Blacksburg, VA Posts 1,043 Points 200

  Re: What does "feminism" mean to you? Reply Contact That's like saying that conservative politics are a joke solely because of the KKK..... I don't know, conservative politics are often thought of as a joke solely because of W ;)  My two and a half cents... I consider myself a feminist, I suppose. I believe the early "crazy bra burning feminism" WAS necessary - *at the time*. We needed something crazy, something revolutionary. And we gained all of the things that badrap mentioned (applause!). Then later, a lot of people have "calmed down" and gone the more philosophical and political way about it - the smart women and men who do realize it's about equality and choice, and not "women good, men bad". Sort of once the " initial hurdles" (e.g. voting)  were over, we could work on the rest (e.g. society's perception of women) more diplomatically because that would, in all honesty, make a better and more politically smart result. Yet, there are still crazies on both sides of the aisle. And that's where a lot of the labels come from. For example, I've been told by feminist friends of mine that I can't possibly be a feminist because I am anti-abortion. Never mind that Susan B Antony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, etc...so many of the founding women on feminism were anti-abortion. How does that prevent me from being a feminist? It doesn't. Feminism is an ideology, not something set in rules - i.e. "you must not want to be a housewife, you must be pro-choice, you must be this or that". That's what the extremists say. Real feminism is a great thing that encompasses all types of people and is an ideology of equality, not some little club dependent on rules.

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• 10-06-2008 7:31 PM

  In reply to badrap

  jenn52 Joined on 08-11-2007 Ventura County, CA Posts 401 Points 80

  Re: What does "feminism" mean to you? Reply Contact Thank you, but the OP asked for MY opinion and you didn't really need to butcher it to fit YOUR opinion. I'll write more when I get home tonite.  Thanks.   I'm not the only one who thinks it had an effect on the economy: http://www.wisebread.com/is-living-on-one-income-a-status-symbol For a very long time it was widely accepted for a spouse to stay home and one income was enough for living and saving. In Elizabeth Warren's Two Income Trap she explains that since many women poured into the work force single income families had to compete for the same resources as two income families. As a result, the cost of many necessities went up and two income families became the norm. Throughout the book, she argued that a stay at home spouse is an enormous economic safety net against unemployment and disability, and families that need two incomes to survive take on double the risk of facing bankruptcy.

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• 10-06-2008 8:38 PM

  In reply to jenn52

  Liesje Joined on 03-02-2007 Grand Rapids, Michigan Posts 7,441 Points 850

  Re: What does "feminism" mean to you? Reply Contact Just something to throw out there....I've heard of more and more families where one person quit their job to avoid taxes.  For example, if the husband wants to have a full time career and the wife works part time while the kids are in school, the PT job puts them in a higher income bracket and they pay more in income taxes than what she is adding to the income, so she gives up on the part time job and instead stays home full time or volunteers.  Man, I wish we had that problem! I think I'd go insane if I was home full time.  I was seriously going nutty and getting depressed right after we got married and I was waiting to start my job.  When I nannied full time I thanked GOD every day at 5pm that those kids weren't mine!  I do want kids but I want my own life too and DH knows this.  I've always been an independent person and there are certain things that are a part of me that I'm not willing to give up.  When we have kids I can foresee me working or volunteering a few times a week and using my mom ("mom, remember how you always said you wanted a fourth kid?...."). vankelderdogs.dutchbingo.net U-CH Alta-Tollhaus-Krieger Lamb Chop RA CL1-F CL1-R TT HIC TDI CGC ("Kenya", GSD) VPC's Coca-Cola CGC ("Coke", All American) Alta-Tollhaus' Bono ("Nikon", GSD)

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• 10-06-2008 8:59 PM

  In reply to jenn52

  lorib Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 2,629 Points 0

  Re: What does "feminism" mean to you? Reply Contact I will give you my two cents X2.  I grew up in the 70s (class of '79) and my dad is a dyed in the wool Chauvinist.  Believe me, look in the dictionary under male chauvinist and you'll see a photo of my dad! However, he also always said his daughters (he has two daughters, no sons) could do anything they set their minds to. Can you say conflicting views? LOL My dad hasn't worked outside the home since he was in his 30s.  This is not to say he didn't work, just that he wasn't paid for it. He had a huge garden, hunted, fished and cut all our firewood (our ONLY source of heat) BY HAND. So, I saw a man that was waaayyy out of the norm for a typical 70s dad. He was also a student during this time, eventually earning his Bachelor's degree in science. My mom was also a student during this time and earned a Bachelor's degree in Biology AND geography.  During this time, we all worked side by side to do ANY chore that was needed.  I started handing my dad tools at about age seven when he was working on our cars. We all dug and planted the garden (BY HAND), butchered the deer on the kitchen table, canned green beans, etc.  There was no such thing a "woman's work" or "man's work"; it was just WORK. Fast forward to my marriage.  Until we had kids, we both worked full time outside the home. We bought our first home at age 25 and had fun playing until I got pregnant with our first son.  Then I went back to my frugal roots and worked part time at home and used every Depression-era skill I had to live on what was, effectively, 40% of our former income. I STILL work part time and bring in a decent income. I work as a public servant (library) and could earn more in the private sector, but I refuse to do so.  It would entail a corporate wardrobe, heels (NO!) nylons (tools of the Devil), and more gas in my car every day. I would also be gone a lot more and not be able to get the home things done that DH literally does NOT have the time to do since he's gone 60 hours a week. Part of my "income" is how frugal I am with our money.  I pay full price for NOTHING (even gas!), make a lot of things from scratch, make do or do without for many so-called necessities.  For example, I buy a new pair of shoes about every four years.  I resole the ones I own several times before they are completely worn out. As for NEEDING to work, many people COULD get by on one salary if they had the black belt title in frugality I possess:).  One does not need a cell phone, DVD player, new car every few years, the latest jeans, expensive collars for the puppers, designer clothes for the kids, etc. This is a question of WANTS, not NEEDS. For more reading on this subject, check out "The Tightwad Gazette" by Amy Daczyzn.Check it out at the library; don't buy it! LOL One of my coworkers had a baby the end of August.  They are choosing for her DH to be a stay at home dad. They can make it on her salary and they want Brandon to stay at home with their new son. It works for them and they are happy with that, so good for them!!! Lastly, in our house, there are jobs that are shared by everyone.  DH cleans the bathrooms and mops the floors, I vacuum and do the laundry.  Some weeks, this changes. It is all in how busy we are. For example, today DH dusted (we are on vacation this week) while I ran an errand for him.

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• 10-06-2008 9:10 PM

  In reply to Liesje

  Dog_ma Joined on 06-25-2007 San Diego County, California Posts 1,357 Points 795

  Re: What does "feminism" mean to you? Reply Contact  I am VERY thankful for the 70's era radical feminists who made so much of my life possible. You know the civil rights bill from 1964? It was intended to provide equal rights for people of color. Women were added to the bill by *opponents.* They thought that the idea of granting women equal rights was so absurd that it'd kill the bill. So if women in the 1970's were a little pissed off at the state of things, I can't blame them. When my parents moved to another country, my father filled out a form that asked him about "wife or other chattel." Chattel means property, btw. Is that what any of us want? Really? I don't call myself a feminist, because the word has so much baggage and I don't think it would communicate my position. I'm for social justice.  For everyone. I think -isms hurt everyone, no matter what side of the -ism one is on. I also think there are a lot of issues that boys/men face that are oppressive and need to be changed. I hate the idea that any person can "have it all" at the same time. We all make choices and trade-offs.  "Are you a dog trainer?" "No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night."

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• 10-07-2008 5:28 AM

  In reply to cyclefiend2000

  Chuffy Joined on 12-17-2006 UK Posts 5,739 Points 10

  Re: What does "feminism" mean to you? Reply Contact cyclefiend2000: rwbeagles: You's general... The options a man/woman does or doesn't have are really dictated by him/her. If he/she wants to stay home and have kids, then he/she will find a partner that shares that vision. If he/she wants to work, and excel in his/her field and be supported by a partner who stays home and holds that fort down...he/she finds that partner. If BOTH parties want to excel achieve and have their kids in daycare or simply not have them, etc...both will seek each other out. If you both agree and have a shared vision of what each person will do or won't do then really it's not anything that speaks about either gender as a whole...but only that couple. If you are in a relationship with someone who makes you feel you have NO choice but to work OR to stay home...even tho it's not what you truly want? That's less about feminism and more about someone failing to realize that they deserve to be with someone who holds their wishes and plans as important as they do their own.       ahhh.... the utopia.   Hardly.  Kids and careers both take up a large part of a future... there's something very wrong if these details are NOT discussed IMO. "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." (Pratchett, Jingo) "I used to look at [my dog] Smokey and think, 'If you were a little smarter you could tell me what you were thinking,' and he'd look at me like he was saying, 'If you were a little smarter, I wouldn't have to.'" - Fred Jungclaus

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• 10-07-2008 10:35 AM

  In reply to Chuffy

  glenmar Joined on 09-10-2007 Northwestern Michigan Posts 11,701 Points 405

  Re: What does "feminism" mean to you? Reply Contact You are absolutely right. I'm argueing with myself. Was it really worth it and did our world actually get better? No. Not so much. Yes, we have more choices. My sister is 6 years older than I am. She did NOT have the choice. College for girls seemed pretty silly in those days and women who wanted a career seemed "odd". The sister who DID go to college (8 years older) was considered by most of her classmates in high school to be foolish, and the act of attending college seemed, in their minds, to render her unmarriagable, doomed to be a spinster. Me? I was always a rebel. How I landed the freelance gig at the local paper at the age of 15 is beyond me. Other than my ability to sell and I sold the living heck out of myself. For the first year I got all the secondary sports....swimming, wrestling, etc. And I fought tooth and nail, and woked twice as hard as my male counterparts to EARN the right to cover the GOOD stuff. And I'm sure that my sisters were embarrassed by my byline, I'm sure that they hoped I would "grow out of it" sooner rather than later. Mind you, they were RAISED that way.....but so was I, I was just lucky enough to be younger and really open to new ideas and ready to be a rebel WITH a cause. Dads staying home to raise the kids? Great! Fabulous, more power to them. A PARENT needs to raise the kids, be it the male or female parent. Not a babysitter or an afterschool program. A parent. Yet, there is a tiny little part of me that clings to the old "mothers are the glue that hold the family together". I was a single parent for a couple years, sole support for my kids since the sperm donor saw no reason to pay court ordered child support, and in those days, if you were not on welfare, the state wouldn't help you. After I remarried, when my income was no longer needed, well, I really MISSED my career. I didn't last long at being a stay at home mom I threw myself into all sorts of activities for and with my kids, but part of ME was missing. And, I still was feeling that pressure that I needed to be doing it all. That is what the early womans movement did. It divided "working moms" and not working moms into two very bitter camps. Stay at home moms were considered less somehow. I well remember attending some DC parties with the ex and "admitting" that I was staying home with my two babies, and the immediate dismissal of me as a person with a brain. So, yeah, things are better now then they were then. But, at what cost? A house without fur is not a home. Glenda

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• 10-07-2008 12:22 PM

  In reply to jenn52

  badrap Joined on 10-08-2006 maine, but living in dallas Posts 2,340 Points 115

  Re: What does "feminism" mean to you? Reply Contact jenn52: Thank you, but the OP asked for MY opinion and you didn't really need to butcher it to fit YOUR opinion. I'll write more when I get home tonite.  Thanks.   I AM the OP. I apologize if I offended you by arguing MY opinion against yours.  Opinions are meant to be challenged.  If you can stand strong behind them in the face of my arguments, more power to you.  You have done that, and for that I applaud you.  We don't have to agree just because we happen to both have dogs..... I would just like to say, though, that your strong assertions of your opinions are possible, at least in part, to feminism on some level.  This type of "strong talk" out of women wasn't always tolerated. I would also like to add that for anyone who is a Palin supporter, she wouldn't be where she is today without early feminism. There is a lot of good stuff in here.  One thing I'm not quite clear on is how ANYONE can argue that women don't deserve the same PAY as men for the same job.... if someone who is anti-feminism would like to explain that to me, I'm all ears.  That said, I don't believe that women and men are "the same".  I believe that we are intellectual equals, if not physical, and should be treated as such.  I can't do a lot of the things my husband can just by sheer physical limitations.  That doesn't mean I'm not qualified to vote.  And there are certainly some things that he can't do that I can in the physical world.  I'm not saying all women should be firemen; I'm saying that if a woman possesses ALL the necessary qualifications, then she should expect the same compensation as her male counterparts, and I don't see what's wrong with that. I intentionally used an inflammatory word- "feminism"- in order to elicit a respone.  I'm not a troll, I just understand how choice of words makes a huge difference in the conversation.  I appreciate every single view point here, although I tend not to agree with about half of them.  I say this all the time, and I'll say it again now:  this is an amazing world we live in, where the free exchange of ideas is encouraged and supported.  We can all learn from each other, I think, regardless of which side of the aisle we're on. It would be pretty freakin boring if we all agreed, wouldn't it?????????

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• 10-07-2008 12:33 PM

  In reply to cyclefiend2000

  mrstjohnson Joined on 07-13-2006 Sterling Heights, MI Posts 2,799 Points 65

  Re: What does "feminism" mean to you? Reply Contact Just noticed this thread after I posted my rant.  I agree with Glenda on page 1.  Yes, we both (DH and I) can have it all, but it can't be at the same time.  If possible (notice I say possible since not all families can make it work that way), someone should be home at least part of the time to be that glue that holds everything together.  With my whole being I wish it could be me, but it worked out better financially that it is DH.  It that sense we are very progressively, but our beliefs are very old fashioned. Feminism to me is having the same opportunities as men, even if you don't want to puruse them.  And yes, that sometimes means if you choose not to pursue them you may not get that chance again (i.e. promotions, etc), but you have to weigh the cost/benefit of that vs. your family. Lisa - Charlie & Riley's Mommy A dog is the only thing on earth that loves you more than he loves himself. -Josh Billings

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