Training class frustration--How to handle this?

• 07-19-2008 11:10 AM

  sillysally Joined on 09-10-2007 Indiana Posts 3,412 Points 0

  Training class frustration--How to handle this? Reply Contact  I want to start taking training classes with Jack again.  We do have some training places in our area but the classes seem to be at times that I cannot do it--weekends are best and it seems like lots of trainers don't do classes on the weekends.  Therefore, for now at least, I am looking at Petsmart.  We did Jack's puppy class there I I like the fact that there are built in distractions. Jack uses a prong collar.  He tends to pull when excited, and I've tried head halters and no-pull harnesses and he does not like them.  He is happy and relaxed on the prong and I'm not going to force something on him that he doesn't like unnecessarily.  The guy who taught Jack's puppy class is the first person I talked to about this and I got the impression that the use of prong would be fine.  It's not something that I want on him forever and would like to eventually wean him off of it so I can do stuff like CGC with him, but to start out with in a stimulating environment I think having the prong would best. I picked a class I'd like to get him in to and spoke with the woman (the other trainer) teaching it.  She told me that they did not allow use of prongs.  She suggested a head collar and/or no-pull harness and I explained that I had used both of them and that he found them more aversive than the prong.  She then suggested that I was simply letting him get his own way by not using those tools and that he should just be made to wear them and deal with it.  Now, I am not going to force my dog to wear something that his body language has told me that he'd rather not, if there is a tool that works better that he likes.  I am not going to wean Jack off the prong by forcing him to wear a GL. Should I talk to the head training guy again to get special permission, or just dig my heels in and *insist* on the prong?  "Some men aren't looking for anything logical. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."

  Post Points: 0

• 07-19-2008 11:21 AM

  In reply to sillysally

  BCMixs Joined on 01-10-2008 Virginia Posts 1,394 Points 25

  Re: Training class frustration--How to handle this? Reply Contact  I think if the head trainer already said it would be okay, and you feel strongly about using it, you should talk to him.  FWIW, I'm sort of in this same tight situation.  I did a 6 mo. training contract with a trainer that used prongs on all the other dogs.  I resisted and used clicker for 4 mos. and Woobie made very slow to little progress.  In the last 2 mos., I gave in and used the prong because I was frustrated and he made more progress in those 2 mos than he did in the first 4.  He definitely behaves much better with it on and I too want to wean him off it.  We're starting a new class at the SPCA that doesn't allow prongs or choke collars and I'm starting back at square one.  I tried the "weaning him off" approach and it didn't work for me, he KNOWS when it's on and RESISTS all the other "tools". He pulls with his face with the head harness!!!   OTOH, if you want to get him off it, maybe starting from scratch would work too.  It's tough to decide. 30 lbs. by Christmas, down 4 lbs., 26 to go!!!

  Post Points: 0

• 07-19-2008 12:33 PM

  In reply to sillysally

  fuzzy_dogs_mom Joined on 09-10-2007 Davis, CA Posts 6,739 Points 200

  Re: Training class frustration--How to handle this? Reply Contact sillysally:   She then suggested that I was simply letting him get his own way by not using those tools and that he should just be made to wear them and deal with it.  You know, I just don't understand this attitude.  On the advice of many people, I got Max a GL when he was still a pup - maybe 8 months or so.  He hated it with a passion from day one.  He'd get so excited to see his leash in my hand, then when he spotted the GL he'd just sit and turn his head away.  Poor pupper ... he actually preferred not to go for a walk at all than to have to wear that thing. I felt really bad for him.  If a dog can't enjoy or look forward to going for a walk, that's pretty pathetic.  We switched to a prong and that helped for awhile, but he has this huge, thick ruff of hair around his neck and after awhile it just didn't have any effect on him.  So ... we went back to  the flat collar and I just keep his lead really short.  He's a lot better now with the pulling ... unless he spots a squirrel running up a tree three blocks away. I don't blame you for not wanting to do something Jack hates and I think Max pretty well proved that they don't always necessarily get "used to it" - they just decide they'd rather not go at all. Joyce

  Post Points: 0

• 07-19-2008 12:39 PM

  In reply to sillysally

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 10,133 Points 735

  Re: Training class frustration--How to handle this? Reply Contact I know you think you need the prong, but to be honest, I think that you simply may have not been instructed very well on how to help your dog get along without it. As an instructor, I know that if you put a prong on your dog, it would come off as you came in my door, or you would be leaving.  It's important to me, as a dog friendly facility owner, to make sure my clients see that I am honest in my assertions about my business, so I would have to stand my ground, despite your protestations, as your trainer may decide to do.  So, out of respect for the facility you are choosing to train with, I would use the equipment that was suggested to you in class.  It's not as if someone is suggesting something that will hurt your dog, thus justifying a steadfast objection.  And, it's your dog, so you are still free to do what you like when not in class.  I have had people hook the prong up on the way out after class, but that's not my biz - I'm only there to offer advice on how I think the dog should be dealt with.  If they want to pay me to do that, then ignore me, so be it. FWIW, I have found that the failure of dogs to "like" a head collar is most always related to the trainer's lack of expertise in acclimating them to it.  Also, some dogs that hate it in the beginning get to understand that the only way they get to go for a walk is to wear it.  And, then, at least they can go for a walk without pain, or, in some cases (as with a Great Dane and her 75 year old owner) simply not pull the owner over.  Dogs that walk nicely on a prong do so to avoid pain, plain and simple.  The object, however, without getting all preachy on you, is to have the dog walk nicely by your side  because he LIKES to be there.  So, if you are concerned with what your dog likes, time to make it worth his while not to pull.  The reason most dogs pull is that we go with them when they do - this is a training mistake that is not solved by a prong, or any other device, because when you take it off, the dog still pulls!  My advice - use a clicker and lots of food and place the behavior on voice cue.  If you need coaching on how to teach heel using a clicker, there's a Shirley Chong video that can help you a lot.  Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 19 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

  Post Points: 0

• 07-19-2008 1:21 PM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  sillysally Joined on 09-10-2007 Indiana Posts 3,412 Points 0

  Re: Training class frustration--How to handle this? Reply Contact spiritdogs: I know you think you need the prong, but to be honest, I think that you simply may have not been instructed very well on how to help your dog get along without it. As an instructor, I know that if you put a prong on your dog, it would come off as you came in my door, or you would be leaving.  It's important to me, as a dog friendly facility owner, to make sure my clients see that I am honest in my assertions about my business, so I would have to stand my ground, despite your protestations, as your trainer may decide to do.  So, out of respect for the facility you are choosing to train with, I would use the equipment that was suggested to you in class.  It's not as if someone is suggesting something that will hurt your dog, thus justifying a steadfast objection.  And, it's your dog, so you are still free to do what you like when not in class.  I have had people hook the prong up on the way out after class, but that's not my biz - I'm only there to offer advice on how I think the dog should be dealt with.  If they want to pay me to do that, then ignore me, so be it. FWIW, I have found that the failure of dogs to "like" a head collar is most always related to the trainer's lack of expertise in acclimating them to it.  Also, some dogs that hate it in the beginning get to understand that the only way they get to go for a walk is to wear it.  And, then, at least they can go for a walk without pain, or, in some cases (as with a Great Dane and her 75 year old owner) simply not pull the owner over.  Dogs that walk nicely on a prong do so to avoid pain, plain and simple.  The object, however, without getting all preachy on you, is to have the dog walk nicely by your side  because he LIKES to be there.  So, if you are concerned with what your dog likes, time to make it worth his while not to pull.  The reason most dogs pull is that we go with them when they do - this is a training mistake that is not solved by a prong, or any other device, because when you take it off, the dog still pulls!  My advice - use a clicker and lots of food and place the behavior on voice cue.  If you need coaching on how to teach heel using a clicker, there's a Shirley Chong video that can help you a lot.    I have no issue with GLs in general.  We use one on Sally occasionally though she has pretty much been weaned to the martingale collar.  The GL was actually the first "tool" other than a flat collar and leash that we used with Jack.  He was first fitted with one when he 11 weeks old and we used it for several months until he got pretty good with the flat collar.  After his surgery on his elbow he was so full of it that it was impossible to walk him without him pulling and we went back to the GL, and he while he tolerated it because he is a tolerant dog, he clearly didn't like it.  He would still pull with it on (though not as badly as the flat collar) and any time we paused would throw himself to the ground (literally) and try to claw it off his face.  This was TOTALLY different than Sally's reaction to it, and she had it introduced to her as an adult dog. Jack can actually be walked on a regular harness.  I take him hiking with a regular harness and flexi (he can go off leash but is not careful and is too hard on his elbow) and have actually walked him in town with his harness for the heck of it and can get him to heel while watching me with the harness and food rewards.  The prong is mostly for crowded/busy situations where there are lots of dogs. I do understand what you are saying but based on his reactions I just feel that the GL is more bothersome to him than the prong, and I want training class to be fun, not bothersome. I also wouldn't be so annoyed *if* I had not been told that the prong would be OK by another trainer and actually *seen* the prong used in training classes there on certain dogs. I feel like the first few classes at least I need something more than a martingale collar to get a handle on how excited he will be.  I can't run the heck out of him before class like I could with Sally because it will make his elbow sore.  "Some men aren't looking for anything logical. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."

  Post Points: 0

• 07-19-2008 2:46 PM

  In reply to sillysally

  dgriego Joined on 05-19-2007 New Mexico Posts 1,790 Points 1,095

  Re: Training class frustration--How to handle this? Reply Contact sillysally: Should I talk to the head training guy again to get special permission, or just dig my heels in and *insist* on the prong?   I would do both. If you are paying for the class you are the customer, they should listen and they should not be judging you without first seeing how you handle your dog. Owned by: Gunnar the Bee Eating Vizsla and Hektor the Pig Dawg Dogo Argentino "I had learned not to care. I blew a few smoke rings, remembering those years. Pot had helped, and booze; maybe a little blow when you could afford it. Not smack, though. ..." -- Barack Obama

  Post Points: 0

• 07-19-2008 4:36 PM

  In reply to dgriego

  stardog85 Joined on 09-10-2007 South Carolina, USA Posts 1,478 Points 105

  Re: Training class frustration--How to handle this? Reply Contact I'm a trainer myself and I only use prongs after seeing that neither a harness or halter will work. If you came to me, I'd insist you came in without the prong, I'd try both the harness and halter (I have a demo version of each specifically for trials during class) as needed, and if they didn't work, then we'd go back to the prong.  What about asking the new instructor whether she's able to let you show her how the other tools don't work before she says "absolutely not" to the prong collar? I never insist a dog wear a device they find extremely aversive, but will work with those with a mild aversion to learn to love the tool. It sounds like your situation might be similar to the one I dealt with with my only student in 7 months to need a prong: the dog objected greatly to the no pull harness due to the restriction in movement and the halter got an even more massive reaction, so i pulled out the demo prong, put it on, and she was good as gold after 2 light pulls on the collar.  She was weaned from the prong to a flat collar in 3 classes and only wore it in class while her owners worked hard on the LLW skills on their own at home outside of class. Erin, the Amazing Maggie Mae, and Super Puppy Ziva

  Post Points: 0

• 07-19-2008 4:47 PM

  In reply to stardog85

  corgipower Joined on 09-10-2007 new jersey Posts 780 Points 0

  Re: Training class frustration--How to handle this? Reply Contact When I teach classes, I make suggestions for the equipment I prefer the dogs to use, I explain thoroughly my reasons for that equipment choice, I offer some other equipment that may or may not be effective and explain them and ultimately I allow the owner to decide what equipment they are most comfortable with. I need for the owner to be happy with the choice of collar or harness or whatever because otherwise they aren't likely to use the equipment outside of class, which is counterproductive. Over the course of the classes, I assess the dog and owner and equipment and I make suggestions for trying different equipment as needed. Proud member of the tenth place CISRA 2008 team!! tweleve.org corgipower.com My Dog Votes!

  Post Points: 0

• 07-19-2008 5:57 PM

  In reply to corgipower

  mudpuppy Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 5,478 Points 100

  Re: Training class frustration--How to handle this? Reply Contact I don't understand the problem- in class you're not really going to be walking anywhere are you? no squirrels? controlled environment?  Walk the dog to class in your prong, take it off, and use a nice flat buckle collar. Your dog may require heavy equipment to deal with real life during training but in a class setting use the minimum. And don't fall for the propaganda about head-halters- most dogs hate them and find them to be incredibly aversive. They aren't "gentle" or "humane" . Sure, you can train a dog to wear one if you spend enough time but the dog will hate it anyway and act depressed and subdued. Which many people think is a good thing - gee look how "calm" my dog is in this contraption.

  Post Points: 0

• 07-19-2008 6:28 PM

  In reply to mudpuppy

  CoBuHe Joined on 08-03-2007 Southeast Texas Posts 875 Points 35

  Re: Training class frustration--How to handle this? Reply Contact mudpuppy: Walk the dog to class in your prong, take it off, and use a nice flat buckle collar. My thought too.  You'll likely need it for the walk up to the training facility.  And, perhaps if you speak to the head trainer like you mentioned...they would be ok with your walking in with the prong just the first time you train. This will be a great opportunity for him to learn to walk nicely without the prong.  But, I know what you mean about needing it.  I needed it for Heidi for a while, but I'm happy to report that we don't use it any more.

  Post Points: 0

• 07-19-2008 7:15 PM

  In reply to mudpuppy

  kpwlee Joined on 06-17-2006 North Carolina Posts 3,991 Points 380

  Re: Training class frustration--How to handle this? Reply Contact mudpuppy:  Walk the dog to class in your prong, take it off, and use a nice flat buckle collar.   That is what I did with Bugsy -  I got chewed out for it but when the 'trainer' had the opportunity to hold on to Bugsy when the Bernese Mountain dog and he wanted to exit the room at the same time and play I think he realized that there are times when trying to control a very powerful (& intent) dog one needs a tool or one would lose. Bugsy passed his CGC and is much better about pulling but i can honestly say I won't take him out in public without the prong, now I have it on him in case I need it but generally use his flat collar.  I understand that trainers want you to have a level of control that allows use of no training tools but let's face it you are going to the class in order to get better control.  Perhaps by the end of the class you won't need it but in the mean time wear it to class, get him calm then take it off. "I think Karen should get a BC next time because she deserves a more mellow laid back dog! Or a Maremma because she needs a more clingy, biddable, easily trained dog." Brookcove 2008

  Post Points: 0

• 07-19-2008 9:04 PM

  In reply to mudpuppy

  fuzzy_dogs_mom Joined on 09-10-2007 Davis, CA Posts 6,739 Points 200

  Re: Training class frustration--How to handle this? Reply Contact mudpuppy: I don't understand the problem- in class you're not really going to be walking anywhere are you? no squirrels? controlled environment?  Not always. The trainer I used held evening classes at an elementary school near the playground.  The school is situated in a park ... so ... bikers, roller bladers, people walking dogs on the bikepath, kids playing on equipment, even trees with the occasional squirrel.  Lots of distractions. Joyce

  Post Points: 0

• 07-19-2008 9:30 PM

  In reply to fuzzy_dogs_mom

  Liesje Joined on 03-02-2007 Grand Rapids, Michigan Posts 7,070 Points 850

  Re: Training class frustration--How to handle this? Reply Contact I did what mudpuppy said.  When Kenya was in her advanced class, she could heel just fine (the class was off leash, and to date she has never NQ'd in the ring or failed a test) but when we got to the club she was so excited for class and I always leash her from car to building b/c it's on a busy street.  I brought her prong and used it once or twice, just going from car to building.  The first time it probably took us 5 minutes to walk 50 feet from the car to the door, lol. I don't get trainers that really push one tool over the others.  The way I see it, either you are OK with using *a* tool or you're not.  ALL of them have pros and cons and ALL can be very beneficial or dangerous if not used correctly.  I am lucky to have a trainer that doesn't force us one way or the other.  Typically, class is on flat collars or off lead, because the obedience classes are either training for the CGC (no tools) or competition level classes that are off leash or we use slip leads but these dogs don't pull.  She has seen me use a prong, GL, and EasyWalk on different dogs for specific things.  I think the right tool for the dog should be the one chosen and the handler should use it with the mentality that it's a temporary thing and have clear, specific goals in mind.  vankelderdogs.dutchbingo.net U-CH Alta-Tollhaus-Krieger Lamb Chop RA CL1-F CL1-R TT HIC TDI CGC (GSD) VPC's Coca-Cola CGC (All American) Alta-Tollhaus' Bono (GSD)

  Post Points: 0

• 07-19-2008 9:38 PM

  In reply to mudpuppy

  sillysally Joined on 09-10-2007 Indiana Posts 3,412 Points 0

  Re: Training class frustration--How to handle this? Reply Contact mudpuppy: I don't understand the problem- in class you're not really going to be walking anywhere are you? no squirrels? controlled environment?  Walk the dog to class in your prong, take it off, and use a nice flat buckle collar.   I would have no issue doing this except that there will be other dogs in the class.  Jack is not aggressive in the least, but he does have that labbish "OMG---I WANT TO BE YOUR FRIIIEENNND--LET ME COME SNIFF YOU AND WE CAN BE FRIIEEENNNDSS" thing going on and I think he will be beside himself, at least for the first couple of classes.  Also, the way they practice loose leash walking/heeling there is by taking the dogs out in the aisles.  I think once he gets that hang of it he will stay on task with some encouragement and treats, but at first I might need something a little more heavy duty.   "Some men aren't looking for anything logical. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."

  Post Points: 0

• 07-19-2008 9:57 PM

  In reply to Liesje

  sillysally Joined on 09-10-2007 Indiana Posts 3,412 Points 0

  Re: Training class frustration--How to handle this? Reply Contact Liesje: I don't get trainers that really push one tool over the others   I guess perhaps that is what was bugging me too.  We were going to a private trainer with Sally for a while and she never pushed anything.  She did tell me that she was not a fan of GLs, but when she saw Sally in one the trainer said that she was doing the best of any dog she'd ever seen in a GL and didn't think it was having a negative effect on her. I wish they would at trust the fact that I know my dog well enough to tell when he does not like something (and that is saying a lot for Jack because there are not many things that he dislikes), and not try to push that very thing he dislikes on me by implying that I'm an over-permissive dog owner for not forcing him to wear it. "Some men aren't looking for anything logical. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."

  Post Points: 0