Play between MASSIVE size differences?

• 07-16-2008 5:45 PM

  spinach Joined on 07-08-2008 Posts 12 Points 0

  Play between MASSIVE size differences? Reply Contact Hello!  This isn't so much a "problem" as it is a preventative inquiry.  We have an 8 month old maltese named Wickett who is VERY tiny at only 3.4lbs...and probably isn't getting any bigger. We just recently adopted an almost 4 month old lab mix named Trouble who grows every day...She's already literally 5 times Wickett's size.  So far they get along very well. Wickett is dominant, and really let's that be known, and Trouble is very easy going - you could bite her while she's eating and she'd just turn to lick you. The only issue, other than the playing, we have is they both steal from each other CONSTANTLY...but never with any anger...more like "stealth" stealing. We're trying to get a jump on the size difference by putting a stop to rough play from the get go, but we also don't want to inhibit them and keep them from enjoying each other. So far they play REALLY well inside. They wrestle from time to time, but it's usually Wickett on top of her, with her on her back. There's some bite play, but it can't be very rough because Wickett never cries out or stops playing. My area of "concern" is when they are outside. Our yard is not fenced yet, so at the moment we go outside on leashes but my parents have a farm and they get to run around there without leashes...Wickett wants SO badly to really really play, so he starts running and Trouble chases him, but every once in a while she catches up to him and they do a tumble together, which once she gets bigger could prove to be fatal to him. I can't let it continue and I'm willing to keep them separated or keep Trouble leashed so that he can run and she can't reach him...but once we have our yard fenced in a couple weeks it would be really wonderful to let them out to play. As it is...even if they're on leashes if they get a little playful she wants to chase and tackle in our yard, so it may come down to having to let them out to use the "facilities" separately too.  Does anyone have experience with vastly mismatched sized dogs?? Or training dogs how to play gently? As I mentioned, inside it's a little different, there's no chasing involved and she typically lies down or gets on her back so that they play on his terms. And if he ever gets a little frustrated and yelps, she HITS the deck and puts her head down as if to say "I'm sorry!" We don't allow her to jump on ANYTHING and all of their interaction is closely watched so she doesn't get a chance to get to rough. We also keep him from antagonizing her (which he likes to do...he's really interested in everything she does, in a "hey this is my house." sort of way) but even if she has a really tasty treat and is on her bed, he can come up and put his face right up to hers and she doesn't even seem to notice. Anyhow, sorry so long, but if anyone has a similar situation it would be awesome to hear from you even to know that we're not the only crazies out there with a tiny and a huge dog at the same time. Thanks!

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• 07-16-2008 6:24 PM

  In reply to spinach

  AuroraLove Joined on 11-26-2007 Posts 1,152 Points 330

  Re: Play between MASSIVE size differences? Reply Contact Let them teach eachother now what is acceptable play and what is not. I would typically NEVER suggest this but they are both of a age and size where this could safely be played out. Its is alos not uncommon for the smaller of the two to be the dominant one. I think if thats the case that is GREAT! The larger dog will learn manners around small dogs and the small dog will not be afraid of larger dogs.....well not coddled at least. Like any multi dog homes human intervention is neccessary but it sounds like these two can successfully teach eachother bite inhabition and what is acceptable play. As for them stealing eachother's things.....its ok since they are puppies and they will learn a great deal from eachother . However as they mature keep a eye out for food/toy/treat possession and monitor treat or eating times. It isnt as much of a pain as it sounds. In most homes it is advised to never leave toys or high prized items lying around so as not to set either up for failure. Google or do a search here on the forum for NILIF which is something a lot of us live by and find success with!   So.....can we get some pics of these sweeties? LOL

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• 07-16-2008 6:36 PM

  In reply to AuroraLove

  Liesje Joined on 03-02-2007 Grand Rapids, Michigan Posts 7,061 Points 850

  Re: Play between MASSIVE size differences? Reply Contact I'd say you are pretty lucky to have two nice sounding dogs that really hit it off and love to play!  One thing that stands out to me is Wickett never cries out or stops playing. I agree w/ AuroraLove, if Wickett is not crying out, it should mean that he's not being hurt. I have two larger dogs (well, they weight 58 and 62 lbs but one is a purebred German Shepherd and the other is a mutt who's about 26" tall so the look a lot bigger than they weight!) and they both like to play with little dogs and puppies.  So far it's not a problem.  One time Coke knocked into a 14 week old a puppy a little too hard but that puppy whimpered and ignored Coke for about 30 seconds, dog's way of saying "stop, too rough!" and giving each other a time out.  After that, Coke got the point and they continued to play for another hour.  My friend's German Shepherd plays daily with their neighbor's little terrier mix.  I'd say, if they have fun, no one's getting hurt, no one is snapping or whimpering, and the little guy is instigating play....why not?    vankelderdogs.dutchbingo.net U-CH Alta-Tollhaus-Krieger Lamb Chop RA CL1-F CL1-R TT HIC TDI CGC (GSD) VPC's Coca-Cola CGC (All American) Alta-Tollhaus' Bono (GSD)

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• 07-17-2008 11:23 AM

  In reply to Liesje

  spinach Joined on 07-08-2008 Posts 12 Points 0

  Re: Play between MASSIVE size differences? Reply Contact Pictures coming soon! I've ready about NILIF before and we pretty much live that way. We ask them to do something for everything they want. We're also enrolled in puppy classes - together - to get our manners down pat. I agree with you guys, we pretty much let them work it out except with the outside play...even though they're having fun and both WANT to play, the running and tumbling could turn into an accidental injury. Any suggestions on teaching Trouble how to chase without tackling??? It would be PERFECT if they could run and chase each other and then she would bow to him when she caught up to him as opposed to running over him. But she's still kinda clutzy...so stopping on a dime may not be a possibility for her ;)

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• 07-17-2008 1:47 PM

  In reply to spinach

  dgriego Joined on 05-19-2007 New Mexico Posts 1,790 Points 1,095

  Re: Play between MASSIVE size differences? Reply Contact  I would suggest you always watch them when outside.   Hektor and Gunnie are different sized and Hektor plays very hard outside. In most cases Gunnie keeps up with him just fine but I do not leave them alone outside as Hektor thinks it is great fun to grab hold of Gunnar's collar and sling him about like a toy.   Gunnar is about 35lbs and Hektor is 90+       Owned by: Gunnar the Bee Eating Vizsla and Hektor the Pig Dawg Dogo Argentino "I had learned not to care. I blew a few smoke rings, remembering those years. Pot had helped, and booze; maybe a little blow when you could afford it. Not smack, though. ..." -- Barack Obama

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• 07-17-2008 2:49 PM

  In reply to dgriego

  Jewlieee Joined on 03-23-2007 MI Posts 5,712 Points 4,170	Re: Play between MASSIVE size differences? Reply Contact My sisters corgi plays with a great dane regularly and has never been hurt. I would not interfere much. Rough and tumble stuff looks dangerous but dogs can be pretty flexible.
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• 07-17-2008 3:31 PM

  In reply to Jewlieee

  mudpuppy Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 5,477 Points 100	Re: Play between MASSIVE size differences? Reply Contact one of my Danes favorite playmates is a tiny minipin. He carefully dangles his ears down and she leaps up and tries to bite them while he tries to dodge.
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• 07-17-2008 4:24 PM

  In reply to mudpuppy

  luvmyswissy Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 1,536 Points 25

  Re: Play between MASSIVE size differences? Reply Contact Given the age of the Lab and the size of the Maltese (LUV those little sweeties) I would watch there play and supervise.  The Lab can certaintly hurt the maltese without trying. My Swissy and my pug played a lot rougher two years ago when they were younger than they do now.  My pug has since put him in his place a couple of times and told him when he hurt her and he is gentler now too - not so rambunctous!   My Swissy hurt my pug once, not in play.  He was running to me and so was Halie the pug, he ran over her and stepped on her paw!  She limped for a week and the Vet said she sprained it but could have easily broke her leg,  we were lucky. Acidents happen and the size makes a difference. http://www.tickerfactory.com/weight-loss/w9SNymY/

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• 07-17-2008 4:27 PM

  In reply to spinach

  rwbeagles Joined on 09-10-2007 DFW, TX Posts 14,843 Points 2,030	Re: Play between MASSIVE size differences? Reply Contact Just to show my two size different dogs playing...They still do this tho Cleo has grown MUCH bigger now and Ellie is still her small self lol. VIDEO   Gina H. dog.community Moderator "Love is the cure for every evil/Love is the air that supports the eagle/It's called love...and it's sooo un--cool."-New Order, Thieves Like Us
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• 07-17-2008 4:37 PM

  In reply to rwbeagles

  cakana Joined on 09-10-2007 Cathy in Northern CA Posts 6,718 Points 360	Re: Play between MASSIVE size differences? Reply Contact rwbeagles: Just to show my two size different dogs playing...They still do this tho Cleo has grown MUCH bigger now and Ellie is still her small self lol. VIDEO   Oh my gosh Gina, that video had me laughing out loud. Miss Ellie did a good job of holding her own with that rope toy. No way was she letting go!! ~ Cathy ~
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• 07-17-2008 4:41 PM

  In reply to rwbeagles

  dyan Joined on 09-10-2007 Ohio Posts 4,788 Points 105

  Re: Play between MASSIVE size differences? Reply Contact On a Great Dane forum that I am on...I put the question of how many people had smaller dogs that their Dane played with. MANY...and they put pictures up to prove it...how adorable those pictures are.  Many were chi's.  They all pretty much said the same thing though...that their dogs were fine playing together as long as the little one wasn't running.     I have a Dane...my son has 2 Chi's....but we are afraid of accidental injuries while they are playing.   Actually...my son is scared to death of it.   Go figure.  But since I now have a puppy that is only 4 months old...he does NOT know he can hurt the littler older dog...he slaps and bites and plays just the way he wants to.  That is NOT good.  So we watch them like a hawk and we do not let them run.... Gibby would trip, kick, fall on and anything that could hurt the very much smaller dog. Dyan and Bubby

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• 07-17-2008 5:57 PM

  In reply to dyan

  spinach Joined on 07-08-2008 Posts 12 Points 0

  Re: Play between MASSIVE size differences? Reply Contact Beagles (Tina?) - THAT is adorable. Wickett and Trouble haven't really gotten into tug with each other yet. Evvvvvery once in a while they'll try it out, but it doesn't last very long. I think everybody's pretty much on track with what I was thinking - no outdoor play unsupervised. Hopefully I can devise a way to get Trouble to bow play and not chase...she's so smart I bet it's possible. And if I got her recall down to a T...as long as we're out there with them they should be ok! You guys are awesome, thanks for the encouragement. More videos!!!!

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• 07-17-2008 7:49 PM

  In reply to spinach

  Liesje Joined on 03-02-2007 Grand Rapids, Michigan Posts 7,061 Points 850

  Re: Play between MASSIVE size differences? Reply Contact I agree with watching play.  My dogs are pretty well matched (Kenya is a tad smaller, but tougher and quicker), but I don't let them do anything outside unless they are supervised.  I don't even like to leave them out if I run in to get my water bottle.  Luckily, *I* like to be outside so when I get home from work we spend a lot of time outdoors until it's dark.  I just came in b/c Kenya was sitting at the door, doing her gestures that mean she's done and wants in. I don't know that you'll be able to actually train the larger dog HOW to play, and I think if they get along fine it would be best not to interfere, but I think by supervising them, if she did inadvertently hurt the smaller dog, you'd be there to see it and make sure the little dog is not hurt.  My dogs play very rough with each other and both of them are equal instigators.  If one dog is finished or annoyed by the other dog, they have ways of letting each other know without human interference or having to hurt each other.  Every once in a while, one dog (usually Coke) might run too hard and slip so I stop the play to make sure he's not injured and stretch out his limb or take him in for a break.  I could be incredibly lucky, but since Coke joined us in Nov. I haven't yet had to break up a play session because the dogs were intentionally too rough or hurt each other, only because one dog slipped and got hurt running too hard. As for the chase, the dogs might be more apt to chase with other dogs.  My dogs got to know each other with chasing, that was all they did for the first few months, but now that they are best buds, all they do is quick chases and then body slams, tackles, and rough wrestling.  However, when we get together with other dogs, it's mostly just chase.  There's a few dogs that Kenya wrestles with, but most of the time all the dogs take turns chasing each other or ganging up and chasing one of the dogs.  It's really cool to see my dogs use totally different play styles depending on the dog or the pack.  vankelderdogs.dutchbingo.net U-CH Alta-Tollhaus-Krieger Lamb Chop RA CL1-F CL1-R TT HIC TDI CGC (GSD) VPC's Coca-Cola CGC (All American) Alta-Tollhaus' Bono (GSD)

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• 07-19-2008 9:28 AM

  In reply to spinach

  ron2 Joined on 09-10-2007 far north central Texas Posts 9,785 Points 500

  Re: Play between MASSIVE size differences? Reply Contact My dog, Shadow, was raised around cats and kittens and a Jack Russell Terrier when he was a small pup. The dog, Duke, was older and was Shadow's best friend. He would follow him anywhere. When we first got Shadow at 1 year and a few months, he would not recall by name. But if you recalled Duke, Shadow would follow. And the play? Duke would charge on and bump into Shadow and he would stand there and "grin". He would let Duke eat out of his bowl. It is good that your dogs are getting used to each other at a young age, when they can teach each other what is too rough. I firmly believe that Shadow's early experiences are why such as things as the picture in my signature are possible. Shadow's dominant breed is supposedly prey-driven towards cats. Not so in our household. The pic is not arranged, the animals are not sedated, this is how life is here. The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb

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• 07-19-2008 12:23 PM

  In reply to ron2

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 10,133 Points 735

  Re: Play between MASSIVE size differences? Reply Contact At our play groups, we do have dogs of different sizes playing together, but we separate dogs by play style, so that the more exuberant dogs play with one another and the quieter dogs with one another.  Unfortunately, even when precautions are taken, there is always the chance that a small dog will be accidentally injured by a larger one.  We always warn our clients about this, and everyone signs a waiver when they come in.  The general rule of thumb, if you were going to separate dogs solely on the basis of size (which I don't like because temperament is a huge factor), is that the bigger dog should weigh no more than twice what the smaller dog weighs.  So, if you had a 70 pound dog, the smallest dog it should play with would be a 35 pounder.  That being said, my 6 pound Yorkie, who is nineteen years old, plays with my 30 pound Aussie, and has been doing so since Sequoyah was a rambunctious pup - which, for all intents and purposes, she still is at age 2 1/2.  You really do just have to use your own judgment in this, but it does help to have both dogs responsive to your cues, both on and off leash.  Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 19 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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