Breed vs. Behaviour, or how one affects the other

• 07-02-2008 7:18 AM

  In reply to Angelique

  mudpuppy Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 5,492 Points 100

  Re: Breed vs. Behaviour, or how one affects the other Reply Contact The truth is that although inborn breed traits can indeed be a powerful influence on a dog's behavior, they are absolutely not the driving behavioral factors of a dog that is balanced and has a strong, consistent pack leader, owner, benevolent leader or however you want to call it I disagree with this 100%. Inborn breed traits are much more powerful than any benevolent leader no matter how strong. Training and channeling of drives can help fit a dog into most situations but the inborn instincts cannot be overcome and should not be denied. Breed choice is very important before acquiring a dog and everyone should admit it and be very up-front about it. If you want to spend hours every day chatting with friends at the dog park deciding to get a pitbull is a bad decision. If you want to spend hours hiking in rabbit-filled mountains while your dog tags off-leash at your heels getting a borzoi is a bad decision. And telling people that if only they were stronger leaders their dog's inborn instincts would somehow magically go away is well, bad advice.

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• 07-02-2008 10:38 AM

  In reply to mudpuppy

  Benedict Joined on 05-30-2006 England Posts 5,240 Points 770

  Re: Breed vs. Behaviour, or how one affects the other Reply Contact mudpuppy: Inborn breed traits are much more powerful than any benevolent leader no matter how strong. Training and channeling of drives can help fit a dog into most situations but the inborn instincts cannot be overcome and should not be denied. Breed choice is very important before acquiring a dog and everyone should admit it and be very up-front about it.   Totally agree here and this was my point.  It's fine, wonderful even, to get a borzoi if you know from the outset that you will have to make allowances for breed instinct.  Not by shrugging and saying "oh well" when it chases and kills the neighbour's rabbit, but by realising you have to manage the environment to prevent that very possibility.  There are lots of productive outlets for breed instinct and I am fully supportive of using those to channel breed traits to allow things that are not allowed at other times, but the one thing I WILL NOT do is get a dog of a breed renowned for a specific thing and then suppress that specific thing totally.  Why get that dog?  That is not, to me, appreciating the breed for what it is and what it can do.    Kate - Dog.community Administrator Jokers to the right.

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• 07-02-2008 11:30 AM

  In reply to Benedict

  Liesje Joined on 03-02-2007 Grand Rapids, Michigan Posts 7,097 Points 850

  Re: Breed vs. Behaviour, or how one affects the other Reply Contact Benedict: mudpuppy: Inborn breed traits are much more powerful than any benevolent leader no matter how strong. Training and channeling of drives can help fit a dog into most situations but the inborn instincts cannot be overcome and should not be denied. Breed choice is very important before acquiring a dog and everyone should admit it and be very up-front about it.   Totally agree here and this was my point.  It's fine, wonderful even, to get a borzoi if you know from the outset that you will have to make allowances for breed instinct.  Not by shrugging and saying "oh well" when it chases and kills the neighbour's rabbit, but by realising you have to manage the environment to prevent that very possibility.  There are lots of productive outlets for breed instinct and I am fully supportive of using those to channel breed traits to allow things that are not allowed at other times, but the one thing I WILL NOT do is get a dog of a breed renowned for a specific thing and then suppress that specific thing totally.  Why get that dog?  That is not, to me, appreciating the breed for what it is and what it can do.      I agree as well.  I guess the only thing I'd add is with a rescue/shelter mutt, you don't always know what you'll end up with, but in those cases it's best to be open to the possibilities.  We still don't know exactly what Coke is a mix of, but his training and daily activities simply revolve around whatever he likes and works best for him.  He's much more independent than Kenya (maybe the Chow in him?) and he would prefer to be left alone outside with a chew toy whereas if I go in, Kenya follows, if I go to check the mail, Kenya follows.  Coke is "simple mind, simple pleasures" but Kenya needs tons of interaction and mental stimulation.  We have no expectations for Coke though and I really like having polar opposites, they get along so well.  I've know people who get a rescue dog and decide it's going to be an agility star and I see a dog that is not only overwhelmed, but sometimes ends up in bad shape physically because the dog's health history was not known or checked and the owner pushed too hard.  I know someone who has really destroyed a dog this way and it's very sad.  She got a dog for a pre-determined purpose and it was totally the wrong dog. I also can't stand if when breeders "dumb down" a breed just to meet the demands of those that aren't going their research.  For example, GSD breeders that breed "old world style" dogs that are WAY oversized, fat, couch potatoes because their buyers just want a lazy "pet quality" GSD.  Sorry, the GSD is not a lazy dog.  Maybe you'll find a lazy one and get lucky, but I don't get why people have expectations that they can just pick a dog they like the looks of and get one that acts totally different than the breed's standard.  vankelderdogs.dutchbingo.net U-CH Alta-Tollhaus-Krieger Lamb Chop RA CL1-F CL1-R TT HIC TDI CGC (GSD) VPC's Coca-Cola CGC (All American) Alta-Tollhaus' Bono (GSD)

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• 07-02-2008 1:32 PM

  In reply to Benedict

  dgriego Joined on 05-19-2007 New Mexico Posts 1,790 Points 1,095

  Re: Breed vs. Behaviour, or how one affects the other Reply Contact Is ease of training an important factor when choosing a breed of dog, or do you base your decision on other criteria and handle whatever the training throws your way?  I tend to get a breed of dog because of something that appeals to me about that breed. The Viszla was chosen because we wanted a bird dog and the V was the most pleasing appearance to us within that type of dog so I think I am one who chooses for whatever reason and takes whatever comes as far as training goes. I do believe it is important to understand all about the breed and be aware of possible training problems before ever getting to the point where you are bringing one home. What do you "forgive" in your own dog because "it's just the way the breed is"?  Really the only thing I forgive my dogs for is their high prey drives, but that does not mean I allow them to always indulge it. Knowing about the prey drive and working hard to accomplish control so that when issues come up you are in a postition to deal with them and avoid common problems with high prey drive dogs, such as eating cats and chasing livestock. In regards to question 2:  Do you even view that trait/those traits as something to forgive, or is it one of the reasons you love the breed? It is one of the things I love about them and not something that requires forgiveness. What things are on your list of "unacceptable behaviour"?  Meaning, what is absolutely necessary for your dog to do, and a breed known for being bad at any of those things would be off-limits for you? Unacceptable would be things like chasing livestock, attacking someone for no reason, destruction of property. I would not put any breed off limits as I believe that with a little hard work you can teach any dog the rules and you can prevent such occurances. And finally....is it FAIR to get a dog known for a particular trait or traits, and then to overcome them with intensive training?  (For example, getting a hound and then teaching it, by a method of your choice, not to bay?)  I am not sure on this one. Hektor falls into this category somewhat. He was bred to hunt boar and to have the tenacity needed to accomplish that job. In many ways I have had to use training to overcome what very well might be breed tendancies. For me I try to utilize the drive he has in order to teach him things that enable him to burn off energy and have fun without hurting anything. For instance we have taught him to pull.   Owned by: Gunnar the Bee Eating Vizsla and Hektor the Pig Dawg Dogo Argentino "I had learned not to care. I blew a few smoke rings, remembering those years. Pot had helped, and booze; maybe a little blow when you could afford it. Not smack, though. ..." -- Barack Obama

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• 07-02-2008 1:47 PM

  In reply to mudpuppy

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,409 Points 360

  Re: Breed vs. Behaviour, or how one affects the other Reply Contact mudpuppy: The truth is that although inborn breed traits can indeed be a powerful influence on a dog's behavior, they are absolutely not the driving behavioral factors of a dog that is balanced and has a strong, consistent pack leader, owner, benevolent leader or however you want to call it I disagree with this 100%. Inborn breed traits are much more powerful than any benevolent leader no matter how strong. Training and channeling of drives can help fit a dog into most situations but the inborn instincts cannot be overcome and should not be denied. Breed choice is very important before acquiring a dog and everyone should admit it and be very up-front about it. If you want to spend hours every day chatting with friends at the dog park deciding to get a pitbull is a bad decision. If you want to spend hours hiking in rabbit-filled mountains while your dog tags off-leash at your heels getting a borzoi is a bad decision. And telling people that if only they were stronger leaders their dog's inborn instincts would somehow magically go away is well, bad advice.   Isn't there a middle between the above two statements.  Blizzard and Drizzle, two littermates Great Danes are total opposite when it comes to temperament, prey drive, desires, and energy.  Drizzle started out in life wanting to kill any animal smaller than her (not too many animals smaller than her) while Blizzard only saw love in every living creatures (bee stings hurts).  These were safety issues that had to be addressed and it involved me influencing these instinct behaviors, not eliminating or surpressing...but adjusting.  My point is that even though some one took the time to sit and write a breed standard and how the dog is suppose to be, my experience tells that is not how they come.  I had a foster field pointer and I worked on encouraging her hunting instinct, and boy could she point.  She went to a hunting family who has a pointer but that pointer was not interested in hunting at all.  I think that if you use the breed standard as a guide, you are influenced by that standard to shape your activities with the dog.  So if a dog who is bred to protect, the owner would focus on the protection behavior....resulting in the ideal with respect to the standard.   I think the opposite is true in that if protection was not focused on and other activities were introduced by the owner then the instinctual behavior would be somewhat diminished.

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• 07-02-2008 2:29 PM

  In reply to DPU

  AuroraLove Joined on 11-26-2007 Posts 1,156 Points 330

  Re: Breed vs. Behaviour, or how one affects the other Reply Contact Is ease of training an important factor when choosing a breed of dog, or do you base your decision on other criteria and handle whatever the training throws your way? I choose my dogs out of breed loyalty and favoritisicm HOWEVER that is also with a clear idea, education, and experience with the breed. I do not feel that my favored breed is for the novice owner.   What do you "forgive" in your own dog because "it's just the way the breed is"?  I forgive nothing in my breed, if anything APBT owners have a higher responsibility to manage and control their animal. "forgiving' anything in the breed would be a diservice to them and would be irrepsonsible.    In regards to question 2:  Do you even view that trait/those traits as something to forgive, or is it one of the reasons you love the breed? On a light note and under responsible care I do marvel and am amazed at their beastlyness, LOL. Just the other day I let them in the backyard to see Primo charge at lil finches on the ground and as they fluttered towards the sky he jumped up in the air with obvious joy and playfulness to try and catch the intruders in our yard. I find myself saying "oh my big beats", LOL. I can laugh because out of experience with my particular dogs I know if either dog gets ahold of a smaller animal they retract and have no idea what to do with the small animal. I think I find their love and comfort so amazing because it is like loving a bear or a lion. Even though they were bred to be human affectionate it feels so nice to be chosen to be loved by creatures who have the capacity to do major harm. What things are on your list of "unacceptable behaviour"?  Meaning, what is absolutely necessary for your dog to do, and a breed known for being bad at any of those things would be off-limits for you? My dogs are socialized from very early on and no human or animal aggression is tolerated in teh least. I use positive reinforcement in conjunction with exercise to help expel extra energy and teach them to redirect their drives or instincts. During puppyhood, after they have been taught bite inhabition I then redirect their frusteration to toys or other outlets. Now in both of my dogs, if we are rough housing and they get worked up they immediately seek out a toy to thrash because they know they cant take it out on eachother or humans. That IS if I havnt decided to put them in a immediate sit/stay to recompose themselves. When Rory was a pup I made a point to play tug of war, never let her win and IF she got to the point of arousal where her hair stood up she was immedialty stopped and put in a sit stay.       And finally....is it FAIR to get a dog known for a particular trait or traits, and then to overcome them with intensive training?  (For example, getting a hound and then teaching it, by a method of your choice, not to bay?) I think it is doing a diservice to the breed on one hand. However if it has a HEALTHY outlet for the unwanted behavior versus negative punsihment then I guess its a bit more favorable. Thats basically what every responsible APBT owner HAS to do out of responsibility and safety for the dog and people but if the dog is being locked up in a attempt to keep it from harm then that is very sad indeed.

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• 07-02-2008 2:39 PM

  In reply to DPU

  Liesje Joined on 03-02-2007 Grand Rapids, Michigan Posts 7,097 Points 850

  Re: Breed vs. Behaviour, or how one affects the other Reply Contact DPU: Isn't there a middle between the above two statements.  Blizzard and Drizzle, two littermates Great Danes are total opposite when it comes to temperament, prey drive, desires, and energy.    I think there is a middle ground, as far as reality, but when someone is getting a new dog I think they should make expectations based on the general traits of the breed.  For example, it's one thing to get a GSD and be prepared for a very high energy dog that needs a lot of mental stimulation and end up with somewhat of a couch potato than to get a simply GSD because "it looks cool" and end up with a dog that is destructive and high strung because there is no outlet for energy and drive. vankelderdogs.dutchbingo.net U-CH Alta-Tollhaus-Krieger Lamb Chop RA CL1-F CL1-R TT HIC TDI CGC (GSD) VPC's Coca-Cola CGC (All American) Alta-Tollhaus' Bono (GSD)

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• 07-02-2008 2:41 PM

  In reply to Liesje

  AuroraLove Joined on 11-26-2007 Posts 1,156 Points 330

  Re: Breed vs. Behaviour, or how one affects the other Reply Contact Liesje: I think there is a middle ground, as far as reality, but when someone is getting a new dog I think they should make expectations based on the general traits of the breed.  For example, it's one thing to get a GSD and be prepared for a very high energy dog that needs a lot of mental stimulation and end up with somewhat of a couch potato than to get a simply GSD because "it looks cool" and end up with a dog that is destructive and high strung because there is no outlet for energy and drive. There ya go.....middle ground, LOL! Expecting anything less would be foolish.

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• 07-02-2008 5:03 PM

  In reply to AuroraLove

  brookcove Joined on 09-10-2007 Semora, North Carolina, USA Posts 4,356 Points 335

  Re: Breed vs. Behaviour, or how one affects the other Reply Contact  One of the questions on my adoption application is:  "What are your expectations regarding your new dog?"  Then, "What if your new dog does not live up to your expectations?" and finally "What would you do if your new dog need more from you than you originally expected (ie, more training, more time and attention, more structured activities, increased medical needs)?" There's only so much planning, training, and time you can offer a dog.  The question is whether one knows going into it, where that line is.  Then you have to consider carefully whether the dog you are thinking of getting, might in any way cross that line.  Becca Shouse: Irena Farm, Semora, NC Cord, Ted, Gus, Zhi, Maggie, Lynn, Lu, Min and Tully Waiting: Bubo & Ben "We didn't have a phone, and we couldn't call you!" Helen, AIDS orphan. Don't let them die of ignorance - WorldHelp.net "I-Dog Biggest Loser" Official Cheerleader/Mascot Start 09/15/08: 186.4 lbs Current 185.5 lbs

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• 07-02-2008 8:25 PM

  In reply to Benedict

  kpwlee Joined on 06-17-2006 North Carolina Posts 4,016 Points 380

  Re: Breed vs. Behaviour, or how one affects the other Reply Contact  Interesting thread as the owner of a mutt not sure how much I can contribute but enjoying the read So my questions are these, answer one, some or all...there's several because this is an aspect of dog ownership that fascinates me.. Is ease of training an important factor when choosing a breed of dog, or do you base your decision on other criteria and handle whatever the training throws your way? Bugsy has taught me that ease of training is not essential to me What do you "forgive" in your own dog because "it's just the way the breed is"?  Can't answer for breed specifically but his prey drive is something I have come to accept - I do my best to manage it. I would not have thought I would become OK with a dog with such an intense prey drive.  I also 'forgive' the fact that he isn't the most biddable dog out there - he isn't going to do everything I ask just because I ask In regards to question 2:  Do you even view that trait/those traits as something to forgive, or is it one of the reasons you love the breed? I have come to respect his high drives and independence. I will likely always choose dogs/breeds with these traits What things are on your list of "unacceptable behaviour"?  Meaning, what is absolutely necessary for your dog to do, and a breed known for being bad at any of those things would be off-limits for you? I have no interest in aggressive breeds, guarding isn't high on my list, and heavy barkers are not my thing. And finally....is it FAIR to get a dog known for a particular trait or traits, and then to overcome them with intensive training?  (For example, getting a hound and then teaching it, by a method of your choice, not to bay?) Personally I don't think that is 'fair'.  I think one should choose breed/dog by how it fits one's life and lifestyle not because you like they way they look. Musing of a mutt owner "I think Karen should get a BC next time because she deserves a more mellow laid back dog! Or a Maremma because she needs a more clingy, biddable, easily trained dog." Brookcove 2008

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• 07-03-2008 12:06 AM

  In reply to mudpuppy

  espencer Joined on 09-25-2006 St Louis Posts 3,202 Points 300

  Re: Breed vs. Behaviour, or how one affects the other Reply Contact mudpuppy: I disagree with this 100%. Inborn breed traits are much more powerful than any benevolent leader no matter how strong. Training and channeling of drives can help fit a dog into most situations but the inborn instincts cannot be overcome and should not be denied. Breed choice is very important before acquiring a dog and everyone should admit it and be very up-front about it. If you want to spend hours every day chatting with friends at the dog park deciding to get a pitbull is a bad decision. If you want to spend hours hiking in rabbit-filled mountains while your dog tags off-leash at your heels getting a borzoi is a bad decision. And telling people that if only they were stronger leaders their dog's inborn instincts would somehow magically go away is well, bad advice.   Benedict: Totally agree here and this was my point.  It's fine, wonderful even, to get a borzoi if you know from the outset that you will have to make allowances for breed instinct.  Not by shrugging and saying "oh well" when it chases and kills the neighbour's rabbit, but by realising you have to manage the environment to prevent that very possibility.  There are lots of productive outlets for breed instinct and I am fully supportive of using those to channel breed traits to allow things that are not allowed at other times, but the one thing I WILL NOT do is get a dog of a breed renowned for a specific thing and then suppress that specific thing totally.  Why get that dog?  That is not, to me, appreciating the breed for what it is and what it can do. Woa!!! people, please read, PLEASE tell me where did i said "deny" or "supress"?????????????????  There is a HUGE difference between that and what i actually said: "breed traits can indeed be a powerful influence on a dog's behavior but they are absolutely not the driving behavioral factors of a dog" Not because my Alaskan Malamute was bred to pull that means he is allowed to drag me down the street HOWEVER i walk him with a backpak since he is a working dog, therefore i am NOT "suppressing" or "denying" his breed, also i'm planning to buy him a pulling harness when he turns one year old to do some pulling exercises. If i am not allowing him to chase rabbits during walks that does not mean we dont spend some time at home playing with a flirt pole. Not because Malamutes have a high prey drive that means that i have to let him go and chase any rabbit on sight, since i am a strong leader for my dog then he learned not to do it BUT we satisfy that need with the flirt pole instead, THEREFORE his breed traits are absolutely not the driving behavioral factors for my dog See the difference???????????????????????? I think everybody here is on th same page  "There are not bad dogs, only bad owners"

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• 07-03-2008 1:15 AM

  In reply to espencer

  Dog_ma Joined on 06-25-2007 San Diego County, California Posts 1,353 Points 795

  Re: Breed vs. Behaviour, or how one affects the other Reply Contact espencer: I think everybody here is on th same page    I'm not. Seriously, I think the idea that strength of will and persistence on the part of a human (aka "leadership") is enough to compensate for every dog's instinctive drives is nonsense. Is your malamute off lead when you "don't allow" him to chase rabbits? If he is on lead and UNABLE to chase rabbits, I don't think you can conclude that chasing rabbits is not a driving behavioral force. Hunting dogs aren't stupid. They're capable of understanding that certain situations make hunting impossible. That doesn't mean they can always be trained not to hunt when hunting *is* a possibility.  It is true that not every dog of a certain breed meets the breed type, in body and mind. There are labs that hate water, and ridgebacks that love to swim. But on the whole, you are foolish if you get any old  lab and expect it to hate water.  Silly example, because most people don't train their dogs to hate water, but the principle exists. On the other hand, a water loving ;ab might not make it long in crocodile infested waters. I think choosing the appropriate breed is VERY important. I also think it is important to evaluate a potential dog or puppy in relation to the breed. With rescues you get what you get, and I think you need to be prepared to be flexible if you get a mixed breed. On the other hand, I not only chose a Rhodesian Ridgeback, I carefully evaluated the parents and the pedigree. Sweetness was important to me, and so I chose a dog with a lovebug for a dad and a grandpa from a kennel known for breeding super friendly dogs. Eko will be larger than I think a ridgeback really should be, but he was the right dog for this moment in my family life. He's a pigheaded beast, but he's a lap dog in the body of a small pony. I love Sasha. She is under my skin and part of me and she's family. She's also a mutt and doesn't really have the right mix of personality traits for our family. She's too anxious and guardy. We deal with this through management, but the simple fact is that she can't mingle the way Eko can. Eko might knock you over, but Sasha would be a fear biter if put in the wrong situation. I'm not sorry to have Sasha, but she doesn't have a personality I'd willingly choose. It can be stressful to make her personality work in our situation.   "Are you a dog trainer?" "No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night."

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• 07-03-2008 6:14 AM

  In reply to espencer

  Benedict Joined on 05-30-2006 England Posts 5,240 Points 770	Re: Breed vs. Behaviour, or how one affects the other Reply Contact espencer: Woa!!! people, please read, PLEASE tell me where did i said "deny" or "supress"?????????????????    Erm...I was agreeing with one specific point mudpuppy made....not responding to you.    Kate - Dog.community Administrator Jokers to the right.
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• 07-03-2008 6:53 AM

  In reply to Benedict

  ron2 Joined on 09-10-2007 far north central Texas Posts 9,827 Points 500

  Re: Breed vs. Behaviour, or how one affects the other Reply Contact Some interesting concepts and I'm glad Spencer brought up his Malamute, misunderstandings or whatever, aside. And yeah, I'm going to refer to Shadow as being mainly Sibe, even if he doesn't look exactly like Demon from "Snowballs" or Jack from "8 Below." His dominant breed and natural desire and ability is to pull. Even at a little over 1 year old, I could tell that he could pull me easily on wheels or a sled and I weighed 4 times what he did, at the time. And I was impressed by that strength and have never tried to curb or stop the desire to pull. I have always felt, and if there was a way to search old messages you would know, that a dog should be allowed to be the dog that it is. However, during our walks, I trained him with mushing commands and something like classical conditioning. And today, I can walk him and say "hook" and he stops. "Hike" and he goes, etc. These are directional commands and part of the job of pulling. And I can have him walk in heel, which he was not bred to do but it is a skill that he can do in addition to his natural abilities. I could agree with Spencer that is partly due to leadership but I think, at times, he and I differ on the meaning or context of leadership. I "lead" because Shadow follows me in his best self interests towards the good stuff, as differing from an assumed social position from other theories. When I have him walk in heel, I haven't made him act against breed trait, I have sublimated his ability to work, which is in the breed. The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb

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• 07-03-2008 7:50 AM

  In reply to Dog_ma

  kpwlee Joined on 06-17-2006 North Carolina Posts 4,016 Points 380

  Re: Breed vs. Behaviour, or how one affects the other Reply Contact Dog_ma: Eko will be larger than I think a ridgeback really should be, but he was the right dog for this moment in my family life. He's a pigheaded beast, but he's a lap dog in the body of a small pony.   reminds me that I haven't seen any pics of him lately "I think Karen should get a BC next time because she deserves a more mellow laid back dog! Or a Maremma because she needs a more clingy, biddable, easily trained dog." Brookcove 2008

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