NILF Help!

• 06-30-2008 2:10 AM

  In reply to willowchow

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,411 Points 360

  Re: NILF Help! Reply Contact willowchow: I can't discuss this anymore because I am getting increasingly upset with the suggestions that my dog is neglected or lacking her basic needs in some way.  It's quite the opposite, Willow wants for nothing in reality.  No one made that suggestions.  You asked me specifically how I train and I find it easiest to get good behavior by satisfying the dog's needs.  That is what works for me and keeps me on my quest to achieve Pure Positive Training.  No one said you were not satisfying your dog needs.  How could they, you gave no details.

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• 06-30-2008 2:22 AM

  In reply to willowchow

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,411 Points 360

  Re: NILF Help! Reply Contact willowchow: One more thing--another common sense thing--I didn't start any type of training until she was settled in.  I don't know maybe it's obvious to me, but I wouldn't expect a dog that thought it was starving, one day from shelter to start any type of training be it NILIF or anything else.  There is obviously an adjustment period.    And, you don't know if you've ever really even worked with real food aggression.  Which I'm guessing you havent' because a dog with food aggression would be pretty scary to sit there and try to hand feed, especially at first as you said.  And, in front of other dogs, it would escalate the aggression for sure. I still don't really know what if any real methods you are using. It seems like you just hope for the best. Maybe you are just trying to aggravate on purpose.  It seems every post I make has to be a clarification of something that should be obvious or defending myself. I can't discuss this anymore because I am getting increasingly upset with the suggestions that my dog is neglected or lacking her basic needs in some way.  See, this is what I don't get.  I get a dog from a shelter and as part of my rehab program, I give the dog a lot of freedom to acclimated to it new environment, fellow dog mates, and people.  I have very little expectation of the dog and the adjustment period is a minimum of a month.  IMO, that is the right way to do it and not introduce obedience training or do NILIF.  Don't you see how that would hurt the relationship and trust. I can say definitely no dog has shown food aggression to me but most likely has food aggression or resource guarding with other dogs.  I remember Essie, a great dane mix being a resource guarder of me...she would not let any other dogs be near me. Again, the question on what training method I use.  I have mentioned I do Clicker Training, a modified version of Clicker Training.  Because of the dog's psyche state, I always try to stay with positive training.  If the dog can handle traditional, I am open but haven't in a long time.  I still don't understand what you want.  If a behavior problem is presented to me, I work on solving it and hopefully without introducing aversion.

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• 06-30-2008 2:32 AM

  In reply to Cassidys Mom

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,411 Points 360

  Re: NILF Help! Reply Contact Cassidys Mom: Ahhh, that's exactly what he wants! Personally I find it amusing, but alas, it's time for bed. I don't what your intentions are but mine is to fully disclose and discuss the effect of using NILIF.  So far, none of my concerns have been addressed.  From my original statement and from a comment by you, the dog has to have the capacity to handle this.  I am glad certain members have had good experiences with their dogs but those dogs were able to handle it.

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• 06-30-2008 2:35 AM

  In reply to DPU

  willowchow Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 6,321 Points 300

  Re: NILF Help! Reply Contact I've discussed your concerns more than once and you've ignored them.  You're worried about stress, it doesn't cause stress, it helps stress the dog has LESS stress because it knows what is expected of it. My reading has all pointed to stress being cause by not knowing what is expected, lack of routine.   You're also worried about the dog not being able to handle it--there is no reason why after a acceptable adjustment period that a dog that knows at least one command like sit can't do this without an issue. If the dog is having an issue with this method, it won't be able to handle much else either and should probably get some medication from a vet before anything else.  If Willow can work with this method I don't think too many can't.  What else haven't I addressed.

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• 06-30-2008 10:53 AM

  In reply to willowchow

  mudpuppy Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 5,497 Points 100

  Re: NILF Help! Reply Contact willow's correct- NILIF REDUCES stress. It's a method of developing lines of communication between dog and person- dog learns how to get what dog needs/wants from the person, dog learns the rules of the household, dog learns how to self-control, human learns how to communcate with dog and has a happy, satisified dog. Seriously, I can't imagine how horrible it must be to a dog to come into a household, be given complete freedom and coddling for a month or two, and then suddenly whoops rules are imposed; how upsetting and stressful to the poor dog. People do this all the time with puppies- cute puppy, coddled, no rules, and then suddenly out-of-control puppy needs to be trained. Doesn't work as well as starting out with the rules firmly in place.

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• 06-30-2008 12:41 PM

  In reply to mudpuppy

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,411 Points 360

  Re: NILF Help! Reply Contact mudpuppy: Seriously, I can't imagine how horrible it must be to a dog to come into a household, be given complete freedom and coddling for a month or two, and then suddenly whoops rules are imposed; how upsetting and stressful to the poor dog. People do this all the time with puppies- cute puppy, coddled, no rules, and then suddenly out-of-control puppy needs to be trained. Doesn't work as well as starting out with the rules firmly in place. And I can't image a new dog coming into a home and not given a chance to acclimate to the environment, petmates, and new people the dog has to live with.  I guess one has to be intune with the dog in order to recognize this need.  I still don't see the need for the dog to be placed in a stressful situation to work out what the human really wants.  Ok, you train your dog to sit and the dog does that perfectly and consistently.  Then you let the dog know it outside time.  The dog gets excited at the door, you give the command for sit, the dog doesn't respond, so you wait at the door until the sit command registers and the dog sits.  I think rather than putting the dog through stress of deciding to choose to sit, that the human is at fault for not training, proofing, and reinforcing the sit command.

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• 06-30-2008 12:58 PM

  In reply to DPU

  janetmichel3009 Joined on 11-28-2006 Beijing, China Posts 2,395 Points 370

  Re: NILF Help! Reply Contact i've been following this thread for a while.. DPU in the situation you just discribed, i dont see the stress! the dog might be excited to go out... but stress? and really, the dog probably has to wait to have his leash put on, the owner to put on shoes and get their keys... i guess that is stressful too? anticipation is not stress! seriously, you clame there's stress, but you havent even EVER done NILIF. those of us, who have implemented NILIF are all telling you it reduces stress, but yet you insist it is stressful for the dog purely out of some theorie of yours... you say you deal with rescues, well you're not the only one in that either... emotional issues, stressed dogs, agressive dogs, nervous dogs, abused, i have all seen them here and from what i see in them, as well as in my own dogs: stress is reduced... something to think about... Janet

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• 06-30-2008 1:00 PM

  In reply to DPU

  Liesje Joined on 03-02-2007 Grand Rapids, Michigan Posts 7,108 Points 850

  Re: NILF Help! Reply Contact DPU: mudpuppy: Seriously, I can't imagine how horrible it must be to a dog to come into a household, be given complete freedom and coddling for a month or two, and then suddenly whoops rules are imposed; how upsetting and stressful to the poor dog. People do this all the time with puppies- cute puppy, coddled, no rules, and then suddenly out-of-control puppy needs to be trained. Doesn't work as well as starting out with the rules firmly in place. And I can't image a new dog coming into a home and not given a chance to acclimate to the environment, petmates, and new people the dog has to live with.  I guess one has to be intune with the dog in order to recognize this need.    I guess this is the crux of the issue then.  I don't consider a dog having total run of my home, demanding food, toys, treats, going in/out whenever it wants to be "acclimation".  It may also depend on breed.  I am not familiar with the temperaments of Great Danes, and I think DPU you have also fostered hounds, the chow mix, etc.  I don't know about these breeds, but the GSD is a velcro dog and very closely bonds to one person.  Too much independence and a lack of direction from the owner is stressful and confusing for the dog.  They like structure and routine.  They are very smart, sometimes too smart, so they need very clear boundaries.  Coke who is a random mix (Chow and other things) is way different than Kenya.  He couldn't care less about structure or routine, and thus, when he was introduced, we didn't focus on that.  He lives for attention and affection, so we encouraged him and rewarded him with floods of affection.  When Kenya was introduced, too much affection brought out nervous tendencies.  She had a complete daily routine as far as when she was fed, when and where we went to potty, when we went to bed, etc.  For her, the routine helped develop the bond and the trust.  This had nothing to do with what method of training.  I didn't know anything about NILIF or clicker training at that point, we simply did what she best responded to, and that was routine, routine, routine.   vankelderdogs.dutchbingo.net U-CH Alta-Tollhaus-Krieger Lamb Chop RA CL1-F CL1-R TT HIC TDI CGC ("Kenya", GSD) VPC's Coca-Cola CGC ("Coke", All American) Alta-Tollhaus' Bono ("Nikon", GSD)

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• 06-30-2008 3:31 PM

  In reply to Liesje

  snownose Joined on 09-29-2006 Michigan to Southeast Posts 5,178 Points 405

  Re: NILF Help! Reply Contact Liesje, I appreciate the effort you make when it comes to your dogs.....but, I gotta be honest with ya, dog ownership should not be that stressful and difficult....I feel by reading your posts you completely go overboard.....to the point of micromanaging every minute of the day.....it's fine to set boundaries and rules, but you are constantly training(which is fine in normal doses), but your dogs show some stress factors of being too managed....every walk is a teaching walk, poor Kenya doesn't know to heel or do agility when you take her out, you admitted that yourself. You have a GSD with issues in regards to your husband, and she has accidents in the house, you admitted that also, and Coke who is being sent to agility before the basic commands are down, especially recall.......now you are wanting to tighten the screws even more and up the NILIF.......jeez, have you thought that maybe your dogs need to decompress and not constantly having to perform? I go for a serious walks with my dogs, off leash no less( in a wooded area away from everything else) and I don't ask them to do squat ....unless I need to recall.....I want them to have a good time and appreciate me and our company........when the time comes for training I work with them, but not all the time.......I would go insane in the type of situation you are living in....too stressful for me....and I think my dogs would flip. Bring the fun into the relationship you have with your dogs and include DH all the time.....leave the treat bags at home and just enjoy.....fun, fun, and more fun........my dogs have access to outside all the time, I control the food, toys are laying around and none of them are crated anymore....crates are available, but they have graduated form crates.....we love our interaction with our dogs....I still call the shots, but we have fun......remember, your dogs are "Pets"....not working dogs...

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• 06-30-2008 3:53 PM

  In reply to DPU

  Chuffy Joined on 12-17-2006 UK Posts 5,510 Points 10

  Re: NILF Help! Reply Contact DPU: NILIF uses only one quadrant of the Operant Conditioning - Negative Punishment.  NegP is taking away something good from the environment until the desired behavior is presented.    Wrong.  In fact, wrong TWICE.  NO method of training uses only one quadrant of OC.   If I ask for a behaviour in return for a food treat and the dog does not respond correctly, I don't take away the food treat.  I HELP the dog get it right and THEN I give the treat.  Then I berate myself for pickinga  task too hard for the dog and spend more time showing him what I want, and/or pick something easier for him next time.  My aim is NOT to take anything away from the dog - I am PRO ACTIVELY aiming to ADD good stuff for desired behaviour. It is RARE for me to withold something basic like a meal or a walk.  They are basic needs that should be met.  (one instance I didn't feed the dog straight away because he bit me for example.)  Similarly, I would not expect a young puppy or unhousetrained dog to wait patiently at the door.  Take this trhead as a prime example - the OP doesn't want to make her pup "earn" chew toys because Puppies Need To Chew - that's perfectly understandable and OK.  So as I said, the "nothing" in NILIF is not really accurate. This is one reason why I prefer to call NILF "Learn to Earn".  The dog simply starts to learn to EARN things... like children have to do their chores before being allowed to go to the cinema.  It doesn't do THEM any harm either. DPU: A rigid NILIF program and a repeated barrage of being in frustrating situations can cause these stress hormones to be released too often and possibly making the dog go into a chronic state of fear that will be exhibited with other problem behaviors.  I can't imagine how strict the NILIF programme would have to be to provoke this kind of response.  This is extreme.  The human in taht position needs to lower the criteria for the dog (de ja vu anyone?)  In other words, make it EASY for the dog to get right. You make it easy in two ways - 1. By teaching the dog what you want before you start, keeping it very simple.  Like a sit for example.  and 2. Get your timing right so the dog knows PRECISELY how to "earn" that thing he wants.  If the dog is being put in a "barrage of frustrating situations" then these criteria (1 and 2) have not been filled by the human.  The human should make it EASY for the dog to succeed (have I already said that?)  Make it so easy that the dog thinks it's FUN!  It's a GAME.  He LIKES to "work". "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." (Pratchett, Jingo) "I used to look at [my dog] Smokey and think, 'If you were a little smarter you could tell me what you were thinking,' and he'd look at me like he was saying, 'If you were a little smarter, I wouldn't have to.'" - Fred Jungclaus

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• 06-30-2008 4:03 PM

  In reply to DPU

  Chuffy Joined on 12-17-2006 UK Posts 5,510 Points 10

  Re: NILF Help! Reply Contact DPU: Keeping the backdoor closed until the dog is calmly sitting at the backdoor is an example.  The dog has to pee for Petey sake, how cruel is that.  The dog does not eat until the dog is calm when the dish is presented.  The dog is hungary for crying out loud.    See above - those examples are not always appropriate.  Just how regimented do you think some of us are?  Good lord. If the dog is finding it hard to calm down at mealtimes, then more frequent meal times may well be appropriate.  Why do you think an advocate of NILIF would automatically overlook this?  "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." (Pratchett, Jingo) "I used to look at [my dog] Smokey and think, 'If you were a little smarter you could tell me what you were thinking,' and he'd look at me like he was saying, 'If you were a little smarter, I wouldn't have to.'" - Fred Jungclaus

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• 06-30-2008 4:06 PM

  In reply to Chuffy

  rare_bear Joined on 12-23-2007 Posts 28 Points 0	Re: NILF Help! Reply Contact *sigh*   so many demands & so much analysis why do people have to make things so difficult?
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• 06-30-2008 4:06 PM

  In reply to snownose

  Liesje Joined on 03-02-2007 Grand Rapids, Michigan Posts 7,108 Points 850

  Re: NILF Help! Reply Contact Actually, I train probably once every other day, maybe 10 minutes maximum with each dog, and once or twice a week at the club for an hour (typically Kenya only).  A lot can be accomplished in 10 minutes.  I probably spend 100 times more time on iDog than I do training my dogs (since I have to sit at a desk for a good part of the day).  The majority of the time I spend with my dogs is tugging, fetching, going to the park, or just messing around in the yard.  But there's no reason to post about those things, right?  "Today I played fetch for an hour.  Then Kenya went on a 6 mile jog with DH.  Then we took the dogs to the park to play off leash.  Discuss."  Meh.  It seems that anytime I post something about my dogs you assume I have a serious issue on my hands, or that only the things I ask about here are a priority to me.  That is wrong and simply untrue.  I'm not sure what else to say about it.  If you lived around here I'd invite you to come over and meet my dogs.  I don't feel the need to post about every single interaction I have with my dogs.  I suppose I could if it would make you feel better.... My dogs have free access to toys, the couch, the bed, the entire house...nothing is being "micromanaged" but there are certain rules and boundaries that apply in a general sense and when they were both brought home there were stricter boundaries and quite a bit more routine involved than there is now.  I see absolutely nothing wrong with that and disagree with DPU that a new dog needs some structure in order to acclimate. vankelderdogs.dutchbingo.net U-CH Alta-Tollhaus-Krieger Lamb Chop RA CL1-F CL1-R TT HIC TDI CGC ("Kenya", GSD) VPC's Coca-Cola CGC ("Coke", All American) Alta-Tollhaus' Bono ("Nikon", GSD)

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• 06-30-2008 4:11 PM

  In reply to DPU

  Chuffy Joined on 12-17-2006 UK Posts 5,510 Points 10

  Re: NILF Help! Reply Contact DPU: willowchow: I don't understand because to give a simple sit really shouldn't be so hard for the dog that it delay's anything.  Are you saying that your dogs are jumping all over and so excited that they won't do a simple command that they know quickly??  It really doesn't make sense.  Do you let them do whatever they want to the point where if they don't get to do what they want they are distraught for days??  I don't see why the dog owner is teaching the dog to sit using the backdoor to block the dog from reliefing an bodily urgency.  All dogs will offer the basic obedience naturally to their owner and it is at that time that teaching should take place using OC PosR, not when the dog want to go outside to pee.   No wonder this thread has jumped ahead five pages.  Oh heavens. You don't USE the backdoor to TEACH the dog to sit, and most certainly not when the poor beast can't concentrate because his bladder is bursting!!!!!!  You teach the dog "sit" FIRST before you ever START on NILIF.  You make sure the dog is really GOOD at it and DEFINITELY understands it before you try using it in everyday life.  Because your aim is to make it EASY for the dog and therefore WITHOLD NOTHING.  (How many more times will I say that one I wonder?) NILIF is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT for "teaching" obedience behaviours.  It is about encouraging self control, reinforcing the habit of listening to the owner and looking to them for what he wants.  It's also useful for practising and reinforcing useful behaviours (like sit) but that's a pretty small part of it. "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." (Pratchett, Jingo) "I used to look at [my dog] Smokey and think, 'If you were a little smarter you could tell me what you were thinking,' and he'd look at me like he was saying, 'If you were a little smarter, I wouldn't have to.'" - Fred Jungclaus

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• 06-30-2008 4:22 PM

  In reply to DPU

  Chuffy Joined on 12-17-2006 UK Posts 5,510 Points 10

  Re: NILF Help! Reply Contact DPU: I wish those that recommend NILIF would read Suzanne Clothier book Bones Would Rain from the Sky, actually its If a Dog's Prayers Were Answered, Bones Would Rain from the Sky.  The way NILIF is represented here, no dog would pray for that treatment.   Clothier recommends NILIF....  So are you agreeing or disagreeing with the principles in the book? If I were a dog *I* would pray for an owner who used NILIF.... but ONLY if they were one who understood the concept of making it EASY and FUN for me to do as asked.   "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." (Pratchett, Jingo) "I used to look at [my dog] Smokey and think, 'If you were a little smarter you could tell me what you were thinking,' and he'd look at me like he was saying, 'If you were a little smarter, I wouldn't have to.'" - Fred Jungclaus

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