spiritdogs:But, the deliberate creation of ADDITIONAL
stress, more than what is required to learn a simple task, is what I am
not comfortable with
Lee Charles Kelley: Unlike you I'm not as concerned about
the dog learning a "simple task." I'm concerned about much more than
that. In a way your attitude is similar to what I used to come across
when debating dominance trainers about their methods. Their answer was
usually, "Hey, all I care about is that the dog does what I want him
to." In other words, as long as the dog earns the "simple task," that's
enough. It's not enough for me. I want the dog to learn not only to do
things that I want him to, but to do it in a way that creates a
stronger feeling of attraction toward me (the dog/human bond that's
always talked about), and a stronger desire to play games that will
release and reduce inner tension and stress.
spiritdogs: I'm sorry, but as the owner of a dog that can complete simple and complex
tasks, but isn't that inclined to play with objects, I'm not worried,
so don't be so patronizing.
I'm sorry if you felt patronized. I actually have a lot of respect for you. Many, if not all, of your posts are sensible, display a great deal of intelligence and learning, and show a deep commitment to making the world a better place for dogs. And I share all of those values.
But the way I see things a dog who won't play, whether it's with objects or with its owners or other dogs, is missing a direct connection to the way nature has designed the dog to reduce internal tension and stress. And I've had a lot of clients who thought the way I did before I had to confront the problem of my dog Freddie's panic attacks: "My dog is perfectly well-behaved but doesn't like to play. So what?"
Well, that's fine until something happens to throw the dog off balance. For me and Fred it was fine until we moved. And suddenly all this other stuff started to come out in him, mostly sheer panic. And it was only after exhausting all behavioral science avenues, which didn't work, and then by fasting him for two days and teasing him relentlessly by tying him to fence and playing fetch with another dog right in front of his nose -- until he was whining, crying, screaming, about to burst a blood vessel -- and THEN untying him and throwing the ball for HIM to chase, which he did with all his might, it was only then that his panic attacks disappeared. And I mean all fear vanished from him completely. I was able to train him to walk around New York City, often off-lead, and I was 100% certain that he would always not only able to respond to simple and complex commands, but would remain self-composed and confident under any and all circumstances.
Was I happy about putting him through such stress? No. It made me feel sick to see him whining, crying, and straining to get at that tennis ball. I was ready to quit every single time his friend Mack brought the ball back. I felt the way a prize fighter probably does when his opponent lands a hard punch in the gut and he feels his knees give and his body start spinning, about to hit the canvas. But the 5 mins. of momentary frustration that I put Freddie through -- which was admittedly quite deep -- saved him from a lifetime of unrelenting fear and panic that just would NOT go away.
So, again, when it comes to using stress in training I'm not so concerned with teaching a dog to obey simple OR complex tasks as I am in giving him the resilience, the emotional tools necessary to handle the worst kinds of stress he might encounter. And I'm not recommending doing what I did with Fred unless you a) know what the hell you're doing (meaning you have to be able to read your dog perfectly and know the exact moment when he's ready to be let loose), and b) your dog is in a deeply disturbed psychological state that can't be fixed by any other means.
spiritdogs: I also have two dogs that do play with
toys, but one is certainly more inclined to do so. This has more to do
with genetics than you are willing to admit.
Every dog has a "spoon game" that will bring out the wolf in her. You just have to know how to find and nurture it.
spiritdogs: An Aussie with heavy duty
prey drive is different from a hound that probably got dumped because
he wouldn't even hunt his natural prey.
Probably? You can't base your approach on an assumption like that. What is actually MORE probable is that his owners fought him over his oral urges when he was a puppy, which caused his natural affinities for whatever predatory skills his breeding calls for to shut down. Those skills and the underlying emotions supporting them CAN be brought out in such a dog. And from my pov he'll be happier for it in the long run.
spiritdogs: If you think that any of these
three dogs DON'T have a strong attraction to me, you're just plain full
of crap. [Now, now, I never even suggested that; play nice!--LCK] Play may be the quickest route with some dogs, but it isn't
the quickest route with ALL dogs. By definition, a reinforcer is
something the dog wants, not what you want him to want.
I'm not talking about using play as a reinforcer. That idea, which is common in the +R world, is on my Top 10 List of Myths About Dogs (on my website). It's an article you've already read ("The Importance of Free Play"), and which you violently disagreed with because in it I suggest that puppy obedience classes are a bad idea and can cause learning deficits. (Talk about unnecessary stress for a puppy!) What I AM talking about is using play to heal a dog's wounded emotions; that's all.
To recap: I think you've got a lot to offer the dog world. My view of the importance of deliberately frustrating a dog in certain situations in order to bring out his playfulness is based not on a need for teaching simple or complex commands but in reconnecting the dog to his natural heritage as a predator and educing what in some circles would be called "good working character." However I'm not concerned with using that character for any specific purpose except to reduce the dog's overall stress, and teach him he has the ability to handle such stress on his own.
LCK
"Clicker training has not taught me a whole bunch, other than that people can get wrapped up in fads and catch phrases." Bob Bailey
"If a lion could talk we would not be able to understand him." Wittegenstein. "If a lion could talk we would understand him perfectly, but we would learn very little about ordinary lions from him."Daniel C. Dennett
"Dogs don't care who's alpha and who's not. Only emotionally dysfunctional owners and trainers do." Jack Field