My Dog Bit Me

• 05-03-2008 3:01 PM

  luther6 Joined on 08-03-2007 Chicago, IL Posts 49 Points 10

  My Dog Bit Me Reply Contact I've posted on here before about my dog Luther exhibiting some pretty insane behaviors when walking on the leash.  It seemed to have gotten better, but then returned.  Essentially, something will set him off (i'm not sure what) and when this phantom "thing" sets him off he will leap and bark at people in a pretty aggressive way.  We finally brought a behaviorist out to the house and we went for a walk, but he didn't really show his true colors.  He got a little nutty on her but it was nothing close to how he can get.  She gave us some tips and said that she felt it was his prey instincts.  We aren't a 100% sure about his breeds, but the shelter said he is an aussie and we think he may be britney spaniel.  So we took her tips and it HAS have gotten better BUT, this morning he really flipped out.   We were walking along and he was being very well behaved.  We stopped at a stop light and a guy walked up behind us and Luther turned around and went nuts on this guy.  As we crossed the street he continued to go nuts on this guy, as well as the four other people who were crossing  the street the other way.  As I was trying to hold on to his leash and keep him as far away from these people as possible, he bit my arm.  I had a sweatshirt on and he pierced by skin, no blood.  I have never seen him react this way and I am not sure what to do.  My boyfriend and I have put a lot of time and money into solving this problem, but we can't seem to get a grasp on it and in my opinion, although his freak outs are happening with less frequency, when they do happen, they are much worse.  Does anyone have any ideas as to why he would bite me or what we should do?

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• 05-03-2008 3:29 PM

  In reply to luther6

  pofi_pasquale Joined on 09-10-2007 Minneapolis Posts 3,779 Points 105

  Re: My Dog Bit Me Reply Contact I am so sorry - this has to be devastating.  What happened to you on this walk is, I believe, what some people refer to as misdirected aggression.  I know you tried a behaviorist and it was in a "real world" setting, which is great, but since the behavior wasn't exhibited, you had little chance to get input on how to manage it.  I'd suggest you find a trainer offering something like a "Feisty Fido" or "Leash Aggression" class so you can work on this in a controled environment.  How the class is structured will depend on the trainer's philosophy - I'm doing a class for my proximity sensitive and guardy dog that is very much positive reinforcement based. Thorough veterinary examination is a good idea, too, to see if pain (hip dysplasia for example) could be a factor and also a thyroid panel (many believe there is a link between aggression and thyroid levels - I'm no expert, but I'm sure someone who knows more will post).  I'm also not a trainer, of course - just telling you how I've chosen to try to handle my reactive dog!  Good luck! Kitty boy Iggy, forever in our hearts...

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• 05-03-2008 3:41 PM

  In reply to luther6

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 9,993 Points 715

  Re: My Dog Bit Me Reply Contact  My guess is that he is territorial (sometimes, you, or even the space around the dog is considered "territory") or simply "guardy" and reactive, as many Aussies are.  Some of them simply are NOT everyone's friend, nor will they ever be.  I believe you got bitten because you were frustrating his desire to "get" the guy or the other passersby.  Interfering with a dog that is in a state of aggression can easily earn you a redirected bite, even from your own dog.  I would not walk this dog in public without a muzzle, as he could do damage to someone and earn you a lawsuit - and I would complete the protocol in "Click to Calm" http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB825 Another possibility is that the dog has a seizure disorder, or as someone else suggested, a thyroid problem.  But, if the aggression is triggered by the appearance of strangers, I'd bet on "guardy", not ill.  If it seems idiopathic, then maybe a vet visit to have the thyroid checked.      Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 19 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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• 05-03-2008 6:39 PM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  luther6 Joined on 08-03-2007 Chicago, IL Posts 49 Points 10

  Re: My Dog Bit Me Reply Contact A few things to note:  When the behaviorist was here, he did exhibit some of this behavior on her.  She just didn't get to witness the spontaneity of him going off on a stranger that happened to be passing us by.  It was in her opinion that this was a prey instinct.  Maybe this is because of the way he reacts to squirrels and such.  Maybe it is because sometimes it appears as if he is stalking a person who is blocks ahead of us. I personally think he becomes more reactive, though, when someone approaches him from behind.  It is possible that this is a territorial thing, however, he used to be extremely friendly with all people, though lately he seems less interested in this.  The behaviorist said that this is probably because he gets a lot of human attention throughout the day that he is satiated.  I'd like to note, however, that there have also been some occasions where he did not freak on the stranger until after the stranger walked away. By that I mean, a stranger will squat down to pet him and such and Luther did not react until the stranger stood up.  Also, this is something that seems to happen out of the blue.  He hasn't exhibited this behavior in weeks, then all of the sudden, BAM, he went bonkers.  This makes us think that there is something specific that is triggering this.  But, I am certainly no dog expert, so this is my human mind attempting to conceptualize animal behavior.

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• 05-03-2008 8:04 PM

  In reply to luther6

  ron2 Joined on 09-10-2007 far north central Texas Posts 9,525 Points 500

  Re: My Dog Bit Me Reply Contact Although I am inclined to agree with Spiritdogs (her experience dwarfs my own by orders of magnitude), it's possible that your dog hasn't learned enough manners. After you have had the vet check done, you could still walk in public with a muzzle. At first, it won't change behavior, just provide safety for others, including yourself. But, in my opinion, it's as if he doesn't know how to handle situtations that do not include close proximity with physical attention. The distances and associated sounds and smells spell anxiety. So, you have to re-define what those situations mean. Reward the calm behavior, ignore the bad behavior, which is easier to do with a muzzle on. Also, reward acceptance of the muzzle. Make it's presence a good thing, which will help to generate calm. One member here uses a muzzle and when her dog is wearing it, she's calm and cool. And, if possible, see if you can contact a behaviorist in your area.   The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb

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• 05-03-2008 8:30 PM

  In reply to ron2

  huskymom Joined on 09-10-2007 Thunder Bay ON Posts 5,248 Points 465

  Re: My Dog Bit Me Reply Contact  My only suggestion would be to write down everything you can possilby remember about this incedent.  The side of the road you're walking on, the build of the person passing, the number of people passing.  The time of day.  Sounds that were heard around that time.  Was the person dragging his feet?  Your reaction(this is a huge one).  Basically anything and everything that you can think of whether you think its important or not.  Perhaps if you can do this each time, you can find some sort of pattern or trigger.  But write it down.  Its hard to recall things in a stressful situation after the fact has passed, so document it while its still fresh in your mind. Candace

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• 05-03-2008 9:01 PM

  In reply to luther6

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 9,993 Points 715

  Re: My Dog Bit Me Reply Contact I'm not very good with the quote thing, so my response will be in italics:  When the behaviorist was here, he did exhibit some of this behavior on her.  She just didn't get to witness the spontaneity of him going off on a stranger that happened to be passing us by.  It was in her opinion that this was a prey instinct.  Maybe this is because of the way he reacts to squirrels and such.  Maybe it is because sometimes it appears as if he is stalking a person who is blocks ahead of us. The stalking is predatory behavior, and pretty much hardwired for many of the herding breeds.  But, his fixation on humans is, I suspect, an inappropriate assumption that they pose a risk.  It is not uncommon for a dog with high prey drive to also be territorial or protective of his resources (in this case, you). t is possible that this is a territorial thing, however, he used to be extremely friendly with all people, though lately he seems less interested in this.  The behaviorist said that this is probably because he gets a lot of human attention throughout the day that he is satiated.  I'd like to note, however, that there have also been some occasions where he did not freak on the stranger until after the stranger walked away. By that I mean, a stranger will squat down to pet him and such and Luther did not react until the stranger stood up.  Motion is often a trigger for the herding dogs, so no surprise there.  The dog is trying to control the human, or stop him from moving.  I don't think his lack of interest in other humans has anything whatsoever to do with satiation.  You didn't mention his age, but he sounds like a dog that is reaching social maturity and now acting like he is the CEO of his universe.  It's also the age where they determine where they fit in their social group and who exactly constitutes that group - others are "outsiders". Also, this is something that seems to happen out of the blue.  He hasn't exhibited this behavior in weeks, then all of the sudden, BAM, he went bonkers.  This makes us think that there is something specific that is triggering this.  But, I am certainly no dog expert, so this is my human mind attempting to conceptualize animal behavior. As a breed, Aussies are also famous for this.  They are not everyone's friend and THEY decide who is ok and who isn't, not you.  Inappropriate by human standards, but it's often part of the Aussie rulebook.  These can be difficult dogs to own, and it's imperative that they be well trained - need to have an impeccable recall and "leave it", plus the normal obedience skills, but many times you still aren't going to make them love everyone. Probably not what you wanted to hear, but often the real deal with these guys. Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 19 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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• 05-04-2008 12:00 AM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  nfowler Joined on 09-10-2007 Boise, Idaho Posts 912 Points 115

  Re: My Dog Bit Me Reply Contact But doesn't it seem like a frustration bite? The prey thing, they territorial thing--all of that seem like long-term issues for you to deal with (like maybe even for the rest of his life). The bite? Totally done because he was focused on his target, didn't get his target, and bit you. The question perhaps isn't so much how you can make sure he doesn't bite another walked (short leash, Halti, and/or muzzle will do the trick there), but how you can ensure you don't get bit next time you make a grab for him. You may have to learn to work with him without touching him at all. Saving just one dog won't change the world . . . but surely the world will change for that one dog (unknown)

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• 05-04-2008 12:45 AM

  In reply to luther6

  erica1989 Joined on 02-21-2007 Clearwater, Florida Posts 2,524 Points 215

  Re: My Dog Bit Me Reply Contact Have you had him to the vet for a complete blood work up? Sometimes minor things going on inside of your dog can trigger big problems on the outside. Have you concidered taking him back to a basic obiendience class? Explain to the trainer what you are expierencing, and what you are looking to accomplish. Maybe take him on a long run before his walk? I would not allow the dog to react aggressivly towards another person, you need to get control of the situation before it escalates to that point. Clicker training may be your best bet here.Keep his sole attention on you - don't allow him to be distracted by the things around him. And most importantly, keep yourself calm. Dogs can really sense emotions - and they know when you start to loose control of yourself - that's when your biggest problems will occure. Talk to him in a low, calm voice. Keep his attention with you at all times, click/treat for good behaviors.

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• 05-04-2008 9:29 AM

  In reply to erica1989

  luther6 Joined on 08-03-2007 Chicago, IL Posts 49 Points 10

  Re: My Dog Bit Me Reply Contact Thanks everyone for your input.  We have taken Luther to obedience and we do engage in clicker training.  He is actually very well behaved.  Most of the time he is fine around people and this is not a problem.  This is just an occasional freak out and we just can't figure out what it is that sets him off and why it is such an aggressive reaction.  When he bit me, I was holding him close, as I always do because we are still leash training, and I was not touching him, I was only holding the leash.  He normally has no adverse reactions to my touch.  He has been to the vet and he is fine. Luther is also very socialized.  That is why his behavior is so shocking.  I think spritdogs may be on to something.  We have only had Luther for 10 months and he is just over on year old.  He was sick as a puppy and passed around a lot and I think he has finally settled in and grown attached to us.  The more I think of his behaviors, the more I think it might be a territorial thing  because lately he seems to be bothered by delivery people, whereas a couple months ago he would sit by the door quiet as a mouse.  Unfortunately, I think we have done and are doing all that we can.

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• 05-04-2008 11:03 AM

  In reply to luther6

  nfowler Joined on 09-10-2007 Boise, Idaho Posts 912 Points 115

  Re: My Dog Bit Me Reply Contact luther6: When he bit me, I was holding him close, as I always do because we are still leash training, and I was not touching him, I was only holding the leash.  He normally has no adverse reactions to my touch.  I guess I don't understand how he bit your arm if you were standing and not touching him. Maybe your leg, but your arm? I still says it's exactly what Spiritdogs says--he bit you out of frustration because what he wanted he couldn't get at. Really, what I meant by my post was more immediate--what to do next time he's in frustration mode so you don't get bit. Sounds like you're doing what you need to to ensure other walkers don't get bit, but what about you? Saving just one dog won't change the world . . . but surely the world will change for that one dog (unknown)

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• 05-04-2008 3:29 PM

  In reply to luther6

  Dog_ma Joined on 06-25-2007 San Diego County, California Posts 1,334 Points 795

  Re: My Dog Bit Me Reply Contact luther6:   We have only had Luther for 10 months and he is just over on year old.  He was sick as a puppy and passed around a lot and I think he has finally settled in and grown attached to us.   Ding ding ding! Spiritdogs, you nailed it. He's an aussie going through his little punk stage, thinking HE'S the one calling the shots about other people. The bite was an act of frustration, like a teenager screaming at you and then slamming the bedroom door.   "Are you a dog trainer?" "No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night."

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• 05-04-2008 4:36 PM

  In reply to luther6

  Chuffy Joined on 12-17-2006 UK Posts 5,212 Points 10

  Re: My Dog Bit Me Reply Contact  Would you mind sharing what the tips are that the behaviourist gave you? Also, has this dog been checked by a vet?    "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." (Pratchett, Jingo) "I used to look at [my dog] Smokey and think, 'If you were a little smarter you could tell me what you were thinking,' and he'd look at me like he was saying, 'If you were a little smarter, I wouldn't have to.'" - Fred Jungclaus

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• 05-07-2008 2:35 PM

  In reply to Chuffy

  brookcove Joined on 09-10-2007 Semora, North Carolina, USA Posts 4,058 Points 335

  Re: My Dog Bit Me Reply Contact I agree that this dog sounds like an Aussie, and not a very abnormal one at that.  And that was an incredibly unhelpful answer, I know. I'd encourage you to continue working with the behaviorist, and also to pursue good positive approaches like the "click to calm" recommended by Anne.  Some points to remember as you work with this dog.  Aussies can take a very long time to overcome reactive behaviors.  They are really, really hardwired to be reactive and do it without checking in at headquarters.  In this they differ from the collie breeds, in which it's much easier to train in that "look for help" behavior.  Please don't get discouraged if you feel you are making slow progress. If you are working on extinguishing an undesirable behavior, there will be a time when it's much worse than it ever was, possibly even with some new behaviors thrown in.  If you are patient, and go back to square one, and stick it out, suddenly, and I am not kidding on this, you will wake up some morning and it will all be gone, for good.  This is called the "extinction burst."  I've learned to welcome it as a sign that I'm getting somewhere!  LOL Going back to his being an Aussie, besides telling him what he can't do, it is imperative that you give him something to do.  This is a good idea for most dogs, but it's vital for an Aussie - they are incredibly task-oriented.  Keep his mind active on the walks - do puppy pushups as you walk, teach a heel with him looking right in your face, teach him to weave through your legs, bring a toy and toss it to him every so often, or bring treats and have him do a trick every so often.  Talk to him - tell him where you are going - "Let's go to X street!"  "Let's go HOME!"  "Here's the GATE!"  Say it the same way every time, at the same place every time - you will feel like a fool but your dog will eat it up for supper and give back 100% and more.  The more patterns he recognizes, and the more he feels like he's got a place in life, the less he'll feel obligated to take control of the things he sees around him. Good luck.  I know you feel somewhat betrayed right now, but it doesn't sound like he's got it in for you, or even needs much rehab beyond the basics.   Becca Shouse Maggie and Zhi (queen bees), Ben, Gus, Cord, Rocky, Ted (BCs), Lu and Tully (Maremma flock guardians) Irena Farm, Semora, NC

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• 05-09-2008 4:09 PM

  In reply to brookcove

  luther6 Joined on 08-03-2007 Chicago, IL Posts 49 Points 10

  Re: My Dog Bit Me Reply Contact According to the Behaviorist, our biggest issue was that we were inadvertently reinforcing his bad behaviors.  As he was barking/lunging/pulling, we were giving him attention by calling his name, saying "let's go," etc., etc.  So, even though we look like crazy people, when he behaves like that we just ignore him and the minute he stops we use positive reinforcement.  I wish I could say it was working.  Grabbing his attention is next to impossible, even if we are ignoring him, AND he is extremely stubborn.  He pulls towards every animal, insect, smell, noise, person.  His head is constantly darting this way and that.  He has little to no patience.  Even the behaviorist noted that he was particularly stubborn. We have been working on his "problems" for a year now.  I love this little guy, but we have stretched ourselves pretty thin.  Every free moment we have has been dedicated to this dog and we have overextended ourselves financially with behaviorists, daycare, training, etc.  I think we might just be the wrong environment for this dog.  We are trying to make it work, I'm just not sure if it is.

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