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Clickers for the surly

Last post 03-03-2008 7:23 PM by corgipower. 167 replies.
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  • 02-25-2008 5:35 PM In reply to miranadobe

    Re: Clickers for the surly

    Hysterical?

    Can't believe I missed Kim being rude.  Wow.  It takes some doing to get her THAT riled up.  Isn't that a first??

    Four, if you have Karen Pryor's "Don't Shoot the Dog" it explains pretty well why working on the different components of a behaviour seperately before putting them together works really well....So I would agree with Kim, work on duration first. 

    What I do is, I try to get a really GREAT "stay" before I add the cue.  I don't want to "poison" the word.  I want to create a solid habit of the dog not moving when in a Stay.    If you think you might have poisoned the word (ie said it and she has moved on several occasions) try starting over with a new cue (like Wait for example).  It's disheartening, but you get better faster results if you go back and redo.  I've done this for both "stay" and recall because they were both so patchy, and now I am really pleased I did it.

    "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." (Pratchett, Jingo)

    "I used to look at [my dog] Smokey and think, 'If you were a little smarter you could tell me what you were thinking,' and he'd look at me like he was saying, 'If you were a little smarter, I wouldn't have to.'" - Fred Jungclaus
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  • 02-25-2008 6:45 PM In reply to Chuffy

    • ron2
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    Re: Clickers for the surly

    Chuffy:
    Can't believe I missed Kim being rude.

    Don't forget, Kim's posts were once called uppity, too.

     

    The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb


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  • 02-25-2008 7:28 PM In reply to Chuffy

    Re: Clickers for the surly

    Unfortunately, I still haven't gotten any of the great books that have been recommended here except for one... I know... Bad me!

    Question... How does the dog differentiate the several behaviors she might be doing while "staying" from what is actually being encouraged? She could be sitting there looking at the light on the ceiling, looking at me, turning her head, wiggling her butt, thinking about Jaia or whatever and I click (for stay). How does she know what she did right? Are hand signals a good thing at this point?   

    miranadobe:
    *Feeling a surly surge!*Super Angry
     

    miranadobe,
    MusicSurly pals are here for you. Music
    MusicTo help you through your surges, too! Music Stick out tongue

    LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself)

    Click Daily to Give Free Food and Care to Animals:
    http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3
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  • 02-25-2008 8:49 PM In reply to FourIsCompany

    Re: Clickers for the surly

    FourIsCompany:
    miranadobe,
    MusicSurly pals are here for you. Music
    MusicTo help you through your surges, too! Music Stick out tongue

    to quote Chuffy - "Hysterical"!

    Maybe I can come up with another two lines to this ditty... is it set to the tune of "London Bridge"??

    (ROFL... I needed a good belly laugh, thanks!  Now we're off to training for the cruel and inhumane.... KMODT!)

     


    Gracie - 5yr old Doberman, Jada - 4?yr old APBT, Achilles - 4yr old ACD
    Fight for your opinions, but do not believe that they contain the whole truth, or the only truth. ~W. Hamilton
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  • 02-25-2008 11:42 PM In reply to miranadobe

    Re: Clickers for the surly

    Update:  KMODT is making me more surly than clicker....

    DOUBLE Super AngrySuper Angry


    Gracie - 5yr old Doberman, Jada - 4?yr old APBT, Achilles - 4yr old ACD
    Fight for your opinions, but do not believe that they contain the whole truth, or the only truth. ~W. Hamilton
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  • 02-26-2008 12:27 AM In reply to FourIsCompany

    Re: Clickers for the surly

    FourIsCompany:

    Question... How does the dog differentiate the several behaviors she might be doing while "staying" from what is actually being encouraged? She could be sitting there looking at the light on the ceiling, looking at me, turning her head, wiggling her butt, thinking about Jaia or whatever and I click (for stay). How does she know what she did right? Are hand signals a good thing at this point?   

    *Feeling a surly surge!*Super Angry

     

     This is a valid concern - clicking for "stay" is pretty general.

    When I start teaching stay I will apply light, gradual pressure on a taunt leash (dog on buckle or dead ring) toward me, while signaling with my bady that I don't want the dog to move. When the dog braces himself to hold the sit, I click and treat. I gradually get further away until the dog will stay with me at the end of a six foot leash, even with light pressure. They really catch on quick to this and pretty soon, plant their butts firmly when told to stay. After that I start clicking during the return, then progress to no click pretty quickly. To me this focuses on the essence of stay - hold position and resist getting up. I teach the full sit stay first and by time we get to down they have a good idea of what stay is, so I usually only click after the return. It gives you something to click and IME seems to make the dog really get what the behavior is about. I use this in conformation training for the stack too but call the behavior "hold it".

      I don't release dogs from a stay without going back to them. For exercises where they'll need to come to me I tell them wait and actually teach it differently, usually with the pivoting in front and back method to start. For my dogs wait is more of an attention behavior - they need to hold position but must focus and listen for another cue. Stay they know I won't be asking them to do anything else, so it makes them less likely to break for them mistaking something I did as a cue to come to me.

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  • 02-26-2008 6:47 AM In reply to AgileGSD

    • ron2
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    Re: Clickers for the surly

    I used clickers initially to develop a stay. Then I quit using it in order to lengthen the stay. Since the click marks the end of a successful behavior, then, at a certain point, it becomes antitethical to elongating the stay. So, from there, I would treat through the stay for longer periods of time. As for what I look for in a stay is focus. When he looks directly at me and truly settles, that is a good stay.

    The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb


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  • 02-26-2008 8:47 AM In reply to AgileGSD

    Re: Clickers for the surly

    AgileGSD:
    When I start teaching stay I will apply light, gradual pressure on a taunt leash (dog on buckle or dead ring) toward me, while signaling with my bady that I don't want the dog to move. When the dog braces himself to hold the sit, I click and treat.
     

    Thank you! This is gold!

    What a great, informative and educational thread this is turning out to be! For me, anyway. Embarrassed How can I stay surly?

    LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself)

    Click Daily to Give Free Food and Care to Animals:
    http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3
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  • 02-26-2008 3:08 PM In reply to FourIsCompany

    Re: Clickers for the surly

    FourIsCompany:

    Unfortunately, I still haven't gotten any of the great books that have been recommended here except for one... I know... Bad me!

    Question... How does the dog differentiate the several behaviors she might be doing while "staying" from what is actually being encouraged? She could be sitting there looking at the light on the ceiling, looking at me, turning her head, wiggling her butt, thinking about Jaia or whatever and I click (for stay). How does she know what she did right? Are hand signals a good thing at this point?   

    miranadobe:
    *Feeling a surly surge!*Super Angry
     

    miranadobe,
    MusicSurly pals are here for you. Music
    MusicTo help you through your surges, too! Music Stick out tongue

    Ah.  Well, there you have got me because I don't CT for Stay!  Sorry!  I think the key is rapid fire treats initially and lots of calm praise.  This does 2 things - it makes "staying" TOTALLY brilliant and it also lets the dog in on what the common denominator is... the thing that matters is the staying put.

    No, I don't think hand signals are a good thing at this point.  "Stay" is an odd one out for me because 1. I don't CT for it and 2. because I deliberately leave the hand signal out till A LOT later.  (Most other stuff I either CT for, or I use lure-reward and the lure becomes the hand signal).  Reason being - my hands are the source of lots of good stuff!  Treats, petting etc.  Any obvious movement from my hands attracting their attention could well stimulate them to move to investigate to see if there's anything "nice" there for them!

    Edit - I would LOVE to try the oppositional reflex technique... I have never tried that.  If you try it, come back and share how it worked!!! Smile

    "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." (Pratchett, Jingo)

    "I used to look at [my dog] Smokey and think, 'If you were a little smarter you could tell me what you were thinking,' and he'd look at me like he was saying, 'If you were a little smarter, I wouldn't have to.'" - Fred Jungclaus
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  • 02-26-2008 4:46 PM In reply to Chuffy

    Re: Clickers for the surly

    Chuffy:
    Well, there you have got me because I don't CT for Stay!  Sorry! 

    I don't either, I only use rewards, sans la clicker.

    I haven't used the "feeling of a slightly tense lead" with my guys, only because I haven't needed it. But you can successfully work with the dogs' natural opposition reflex indeed, and it works well for most people who use it, as long as it's done very slowly in the beginning with very light touches, so as not to urge the dog forward (a lot of people use that type of thing as a cue to get the dog to begin walking).

    I plan on teaching my girls something fun, and that is to move into the leash with the slightest of pressure (even from just squeezing the leash), or to move into the leash when they feel the leash going taut. I haven't taught it this way, but I'm thinking of it as another fun, easy way to teach LLW, because if the dog learns strongly that any pressure on the leash means to move into the leash, it will in effect prevent pulling on leash! I don't have a real pulling problem with my girls, but they'd be fun to teach. I learned about it on one of my clicker groups, so keep it in my toolbox as something I want to work on eventually, see how it goes.

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  • 02-26-2008 7:53 PM In reply to FourIsCompany

    • ron2
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    Re: Clickers for the surly

    FourIsCompany:
    Embarrassed How can I stay surly?

     

    What can I do to help? Wink Devil

     

    The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb


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  • 02-26-2008 8:07 PM In reply to ron2

    Re: Clickers for the surly

    ron2:
    What can I do to help? Wink Devil
     

    LOL I don't know... Perhaps some punishment? Wink 

    LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself)

    Click Daily to Give Free Food and Care to Animals:
    http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3
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  • 02-26-2008 8:19 PM In reply to FourIsCompany

    • ron2
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    Re: Clickers for the surly

    FourIsCompany:
    LOL I don't know... Perhaps some punishment

     

    Three songs popped into mind.

    "Hurt so good" by John Cougar Mellencamp

    "Love Hurts" by Nazareth

    "King of Pain" by the Police.

    The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb


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  • 02-26-2008 11:09 PM In reply to Dog_ma

    • dgriego
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    Re: Clickers for the surly

     Well I figure I will make a progress report and being my normal surly self it has taken a couple of days to get around to posting it.

    We did some work this weekend and it was fairly easy to get Hektor to target my hand and then to target other family members hands.He is targeting the hands when you say  "go visit" I must say in some ways (and please do not take offense at this clicker people) the clicker gets in the way. I did use it but I find it sometimes cumbersome to click it at the right time and using marker words just seems more natural and I can use them even if my hands are busy. Since I am in the habit of using marker words anyway and habits die hard I am still not sure if Hektor understands its the click or my marker word.

     Can't I just use the concept (of having a clearly defined marker) and not the clicker?  Isn't it the same thing really?

    Owned by:
    Gunnar the Bee Eating Vizsla and
    Hektor the Pig Dawg Dogo Argentino

    "I had learned not to care. I blew a few smoke rings, remembering those years. Pot had helped, and booze; maybe a little blow when you could afford it. Not smack, though. ..." -- Barack Obama
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  • 02-26-2008 11:28 PM In reply to FourIsCompany

    Re: Clickers for the surly

    FourIsCompany:
    Thank you! This is gold!

     

     Glad I could help! Let me know how it works for you if you try it :)

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