Prong Collars - dicuss

• 02-21-2008 7:19 PM

  In reply to Edie

  Benedict Joined on 05-30-2006 England Posts 5,244 Points 770

  Re: Prong Collars - dicuss Reply Contact  Admin speaking.. I would like to request that everyone who is participating in this thread read what they have written before hitting the post button.  Read it twice.  Make sure it is on-topic and not attacking anyone.  Debate the issue in a polite fashion. Edits are being recorded, anyone who has had 3, in this thread alone or in a combination of this thread and others...is now having their account status reviewed and suspensions will happen.  If you have not yet reached 3 edits and do not wish to, I suggest you take measures to ensure that you don't.  The bickering stops.  Now.  Thank you.   Kate - Dog.community Administrator Jokers to the right.

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• 02-21-2008 8:59 PM

  In reply to Chuffy

  sillysally Joined on 09-10-2007 Indiana Posts 3,442 Points 0

  Re: Prong Collars - dicuss Reply Contact Have you ever used one? Yes, I use one on my lab Jack    If so, why did you use one and what else did you try first... did the prong succeed where other things failed and if so why? Well, it's kind of a long story, so bare with me. Jack had very good leash manners as a young pup.  Then he started having problems with his elbow.  He was crate rested first in case it was a soft tissue injury (we could not figure out the issue), then he was further crate rested after we discovered the problem and had him operated on.  Somewhere between puppyhood and all the medical issues, his leash manners took a turn for the worst. We tried the Gentle Leader first.  It did the job but Jack hated it.  Every time we would pause he would throw himself on the ground dramatically and try to paw it off his face.  Then we tried the Easy Walk.  He absolutely wanted nothing to do with that.  He was obviously very uncomfortable (it was fitted by our trainer, and we had two different sizes at hand), and at one point just looked at me and refused to walk. Finally, we tried the prong.  He was happy and relaxed in it.  The trainer showed us how to fit it and use it.  We place it right above the flat collar.  I do not let him self correct on it, he is pretty pain insensitive, and I feel (as does my trainer) that he would desensitize himself to it pretty quickly.  If I feel a correction is in oder, he gets a slight tug, and that generally does the trick.  He doesn't show signs of discomfort, fear or pain, doesn't flash me calming signals when he is corrected.  He is just Jack with a prong collar.     "Some men aren't looking for anything logical. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."

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• 02-21-2008 9:02 PM

  In reply to glenmar

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 10,138 Points 735

  Re: Prong Collars - dicuss Reply Contact glenmar: Ouch Anne! Yes, there ARE people in this world who will never, ever train their dogs to walk properly on lead.  And to me, I guess that I see the prong as the lesser of several evils.  Be it a choker or flat collar, when that untrained dog is pulling so hard he's gagging, choking and coughing, that's not so great.  Nor is being surrendered to the shelter because the dog is too stubborn/strong/whatever.   Pardon my sorry attempt at humor.  Of course, you are right.  And, for some dogs, the prong is definitely the lesser of several evils.  I certainly prefer a prong over a slip, or an electronic collar.  But, I do frequently see people issuing corrections that are not "soft" and I see people using the prong on reactive or fearful dogs, which is completely inappropriate.  And, frankly, I resent the inference that it is improper to suggest that they are not doing the right thing.  Their preference is NOT the issue.  The issue is what equipment is best for that dog/handler combination, and can the dog be managed in something that does not cause discomfort or pain?  People always want to minimize the "discomfort" by calling it that, but it is a pain inducing stimulus that the dog can make go away, or it would not be effective as a negative reinforcer.  I'd be willing to bet that I, or mudpuppy, or Kim MacMillan, could take most of the dogs that others have said truly needed a prong and manage to train them using clicker training.  In some cases, I'm sure it would take some effort, and maybe some inventiveness about figuring out appropriate reinforcers for the dog's behavior, but I submit that it would be do-able.  What I don't understand is why it is so repugnant to be told that another method beside the one that is familiar to you could work better.  If someone told me that, and I was concerned that my dog be both obedient and happy, I would take it to heart and maybe do some serious reading, but maybe give it a real try.  I wouldn't spend hours and days on a message board trying to make the person or people who suggested it appear to be giant ogres with no brains, no manners, and no sense of decorum.  If things deteriorate during these discussions, it's because there are two sides being equally disagreeable.  I don't care who agrees with me and who doesn't.  I have always posted here based on what I see as humane (yup, I use that word a lot, and anyone is welcome to PM me for my definition of what that means), and I advocate for dogs, not humans (who are perfectly capable of advocating for themselves and their points of view.  To me, using a prong is not awful.  What's awful is using a prong if you can train or manage the dog with something else that is less harsh.  Believe me, if I thought I needed to use a prong, I would.  But, I would have tried a lot of other things first.  Funny, by doing that, I haven't had a prong collar on any of my dogs since 1978 or so. Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 19 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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• 02-21-2008 9:15 PM

  In reply to sillysally

  jennie_c_d Joined on 09-10-2007 Southeast Georgia Posts 8,710 Points 75

  Re: Prong Collars - dicuss Reply Contact sillysally: Then we tried the Easy Walk.  He absolutely wanted nothing to do with that.  He was obviously very uncomfortable (it was fitted by our trainer, and we had two different sizes at hand), and at one point just looked at me and refused to walk.     And I thought Emma was a freak, LOL! I bought her an Easy Walk (special ordered it, in electric lime, no less!), for casual walking without pulling. She despises it. She won't walk in it. She'll fall over on her side, and not move (she's totally movable, by carrying, but that isn't the point).      Now, I just... ask for a heel when I don't want her to pull. Her pulling isn't going to injure me, though .  Mischeif N Miracles, CGC, RE (PRT, 10/13/2003) Libby's Monkey N The Middle (Chinese Crested, 1/26/2008) Teenie Weenie at the Bridge (Dachshund, ???-12/28/2007)

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• 02-21-2008 9:20 PM

  In reply to jennie_c_d

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 10,138 Points 735

  Re: Prong Collars - dicuss Reply Contact jennie_c_d: sillysally: Then we tried the Easy Walk.  He absolutely wanted nothing to do with that.  He was obviously very uncomfortable (it was fitted by our trainer, and we had two different sizes at hand), and at one point just looked at me and refused to walk.     And I thought Emma was a freak, LOL! I bought her an Easy Walk (special ordered it, in electric lime, no less!), for casual walking without pulling. She despises it. She won't walk in it. She'll fall over on her side, and not move (she's totally movable, by carrying, but that isn't the point).      Now, I just... ask for a heel when I don't want her to pull. Her pulling isn't going to injure me, though .    Sometimes, when I get a dog that really hates the Easy Walk, I try a Sporn no pull harness.  It doesn't fit at the dog's armpits like the EW, and it works pretty well on quite a few dogs.  A little bit of a PITA to put on, but another thing to try. Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 19 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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• 02-21-2008 9:29 PM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  jennie_c_d Joined on 09-10-2007 Southeast Georgia Posts 8,710 Points 75

  Re: Prong Collars - dicuss Reply Contact She leans into a Sporn, and pulls harder than on a regular harness. Teenie's legs popped out of the Sporn!  That was unsafe... Teenie popped out of everything but a martingale, though. She was good, like that.    Since we've been working so hard on the formal heeling, her "regular" walking has muchly improved. I don't get nearly as much pulling, because she's always checking back with me. I didn't realize it'd have that side effect. I think I like it:)   Mischeif N Miracles, CGC, RE (PRT, 10/13/2003) Libby's Monkey N The Middle (Chinese Crested, 1/26/2008) Teenie Weenie at the Bridge (Dachshund, ???-12/28/2007)

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• 02-21-2008 9:38 PM

  In reply to jennie_c_d

  sillysally Joined on 09-10-2007 Indiana Posts 3,442 Points 0

  Re: Prong Collars - dicuss Reply Contact jennie_c_d: She leans into a Sporn, and pulls harder than on a regular harness. Teenie's legs popped out of the Sporn!  That was unsafe... Teenie popped out of everything but a martingale, though. She was good, like that.       Sally did that too.  Also, we had an issue with the Sporn sort of "unadjusting" itself, if that makes any sense.  With Jack, I'm concerned about it jarring his elbows.  "Some men aren't looking for anything logical. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."

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• 02-21-2008 9:54 PM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  glenmar Joined on 09-10-2007 Northwestern Michigan Posts 11,511 Points 405

  Re: Prong Collars - dicuss Reply Contact I think that the key is that you or mudpuppy or Kim are NOT the dogs owners.  I think a fresh pair of hands often have an advantage.  I see that sometimes at Petsmart, where they do a little one hour loose leash walking class.  The TRAINER can have those dogs walking like champs quickly.  The owners, not so much.  I would have LOVED for you and your truck to come visit and help me teach Thor how to walk like a gentleman.  I've seen the same thing, people really abusing a prong and I agree with you on the inability to bite the tongue. Yes, there are two sides to every disagreement.  And despite what was said, I wasn't defending myself to what you had said.  There certainly have been lots of pretty cruel comments made throughout this thread.  However, had I taken what you said personally, you would have heard from me via email!  And I think you know THAT.    You know the story of Thor and the prong and you've never given me a hard time about it, so it's not likely you'd start now! Now, as for that attempt at humor.....   A house without fur is not a home. Glenda

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• 02-21-2008 9:54 PM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  glenmar Joined on 09-10-2007 Northwestern Michigan Posts 11,511 Points 405	Re: Prong Collars - dicuss Reply Contact sorry, double post somehow A house without fur is not a home. Glenda
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• 02-21-2008 10:22 PM

  In reply to Edie

  badrap Joined on 10-08-2006 maine, but living in dallas Posts 2,337 Points 115

  Re: Prong Collars - dicuss Reply Contact Edie: Impatient,quick fix wanters,controlling,old school training technique users. .......I went back and taught him to walk nicely off the lead before i again attempted to teach him to walk on it.This did take a fair bit of time,\.  I'm curious what kind of situation you live in, and exactly what you mean by a "fair bit of time." I live in an urban area; I have no choice but to leash my dogs at all times, even for the shortest of potty breaks.  I do not have a yard free of stimuli in which to practive walking nicely before we go out to potty.  It can take MONTHS to teach a dog to walk nicely.  It is simply not practical to suggest that I would teach my dogs to walk perfectly before I headed outdoors to try and take them to the bathroom.  In my eyes, housebreaking comes before leash training. This is my problem with people who are vehemently opposed to prongs- I don't feel that they are considering all situations; only their own, which may be more appropriate in which to work without one. For me, it's either inside the apartment or out in a busy city park.  I work with clickers, but I have to consider other factors that it doesn't sound like a lot of people are considering.

  Post Points: 0

• 02-21-2008 10:28 PM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  espencer Joined on 09-25-2006 St Louis Posts 3,206 Points 300

  Re: Prong Collars - dicuss Reply Contact spiritdogs: I'd be willing to bet that I, or mudpuppy, or Kim MacMillan, could take most of the dogs that others have said truly needed a prong and manage to train them using clicker training.   And i could make the dog walk nicely before you were taking the clicker out of your pocket with nothing but the regular leash, I won!!!   My point is, there is not perfect world, some people just rescued their dogs and the dog was coming with those leash manners (at least they save a life), or they didnt know the dog was going to become a puller when they got the puppy. You have to understand that people out there dont have the same experience as you, their dog maybe is not even clicker saavy, you cant blame them because their arm is sore for so much pulling, how much time do you give to a dog with no clicker training whatsoever to stop pulling on the leash? 3, 4 weeks? between charging the clicker and getting the dog to understand what the clicker is AND from there going directly to nothing but loose leash walking (skipping more basic commands like sit or down, etc) You cant blame if an owner rather to save him/herself 3 or 4 weeks of painful and stressful walks trying something that it might help sooner, maybe you already forgot what it feels like, how do you walk a dog when you are introducing the clicker to the dog the first days? do you just dont walk the dog at all? I can have the dog walking next to me in 5 minutes or less, do i blame them for buying a prong? of course not, they dont have me, you, mudpuppy or Kim as a neighbor to help them, sure the prong might cause discomfort to the dog, what about the continuous discomfort for the human?, some people sometimes feel that their arm will come out of their socket, if we take both discomforts together and compare them i think the human looses by far, not only because the physical but the mental discomfort too, i'm sure that the dog wont die (unless the owner really really, really tries) for having some discomfort on the neck, thats what i call permissive "you can pull me and hurt my arm while i get worried that i cant control you and be afraid that you would get ran over by a car or  get me in trouble but i cant make you wear something that might cause a little bit of discomfort on your neck" priceless Maybe the people already know about the clicker but they decided its not for them, it works wonders for you but they are not you, if they rather to go with the prong then thats their choice Is the prong "harsh"? well that depends on the owner, what if i tell you that i could think the clicker is harsh? of course you would laugh, but that would me MY opinion, and MY opinion is not the same as YOUR opinion, nobody here is some kind of  "Harsh police" to dictate what its and whats not, i dont think the prong is harsh whatsoever If the owner bought a prong and that helped him/her to walk the dog nicely then great, are there other options out there? sure, there is yours that takes 4 weeks and is less harsh and there is mine that is faster and does not need anything but the owner's leash, but this (just like more than 80% of the world) its a free country and everybody is free to do what they think is best for THEM and if a prong is the best for THEM so be it, i bet the dog can handle it, they are not made of glass  "There are not bad dogs, only bad owners"

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• 02-21-2008 10:49 PM

  In reply to espencer

  Benedict Joined on 05-30-2006 England Posts 5,244 Points 770

  Re: Prong Collars - dicuss Reply Contact espencer: You have to understand that people out there dont have the same experience as you, their dog maybe is not even clicker saavy, you cant blame them because their arm is sore for so much pulling, how much time do you give to a dog with no clicker training whatsoever to stop pulling on the leash? 3, 4 weeks? between charging the clicker and getting the dog to understand what the clicker is AND from there going directly to nothing but loose leash walking (skipping more basic commands like sit or down, etc) You cant blame if an owner rather to save him/herself 3 or 4 weeks of painful and stressful walks trying something that it might help sooner, maybe you already forgot what it feels like, how do you walk a dog when you are introducing the clicker to the dog the first days? do you just dont walk the dog at all?   Believe it or not, I agree with this completely.  It's no secret that I use "positive" training methods with my dog to the fullest extent that I can.....but it is precisely because I CAN...it's my choice to do that and I don't for a second believe it is the only choice out there - just that it is mine.  I have every sympathy with people who are in over their heads with a behaviour or training issue they don't like, and who don't have the benefit of time, or even just the benefit of experience and knowledge of other options for them to consider. I have been in those shoes too often myself to criticise others for it. Heck, I had my dog neutered because although I had taught him not to pull on a leash when walking, he would lunge for a female in heat no matter what I did to try to prevent it.  Yes, I could have waited it out...I could have exposed him to females in heat enough to train him to do something different instead...I could even have put a prong on him, which might have worked and I did consider it.  Except, I didn't have the benefit of time...I have arthritis in my hands and Ben was hurting me *now* and was going to continue to hurt me and even if exposing him to females in heat wasn't a risky prospect anyway, I thought it would be cruel to do it long enough to train an alternate behaviour.  I had him fixed 3 months before I had wanted to.  We both got over it. My point is, I will criticise no one for trying every tool in the box that sits this side of any arbitrary line that they won't cross, including prongs.  Everyone's line is going to be different.   I'd use one in a heartbeat if I felt it was my only option....it hasn't been, so far, but Ben is not the last dog I am ever going to own, and I am not going to limit myself by saying "never" except about things that are truly repugnant to me.  I find prongs FAR less "cruel" than some other tools out there, and my opinion on what is cruel might surprise some people, but is irrelevant here.  The prong is not, to me.  I'd use one if I thought I needed to.  espencer, if you'll forgive this, I was particularly impressed with the example you gave, and it's one of the reasons I chose to respond.  People do what they feel they need to do to cope....within reason, I won't blame them for that either. Kate - Dog.community Administrator Jokers to the right.

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• 02-21-2008 11:54 PM

  In reply to Benedict

  espencer Joined on 09-25-2006 St Louis Posts 3,206 Points 300

  Re: Prong Collars - dicuss Reply Contact Benedict: It's no secret that I use "positive" training methods with my dog to the fullest extent that I can.....but it is precisely because I CAN...it's my choice to do that and I don't for a second believe it is the only choice out there - just that it is mine.   I agree, you already have the experience, your dog knows what its about, you just as any other +R person here can do it with a hand tied to their back because you have the experience, time and knowledge, some other people dont You cant ask someone who never touched a clicker to have the confidence that its going to work, what if the person is not doing it right?, what if the dog is not getting it?  what if the dog is too distracted during the walks (even when at home was doing fine) the female in heat on the street or the guy on a skateboard are more appealing  than the clicker? The owner cant risk 4 or more weeks of pain just to see IF its going to work. Like you said, the dog is causing pain NOW We all would love to get an A+ in training but sometimes the circumstances make us get a B+ and that is ok too, there is no need to be so anal to get it perfectly right since the first choice I'm glad we agree on some things     "There are not bad dogs, only bad owners"

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• 02-22-2008 1:32 AM

  In reply to Chuffy

  AgileGSD Joined on 09-16-2007 Posts 452 Points 0

  Re: Prong Collars - dicuss Reply Contact  Have you ever used one? Yes   If so, why did you use one and what else did you try first... did the prong succeed where other things failed and if so why? I have used/suggested them many times both for my dogs and client dogs. When I was trying GLs and no-pull harnesses, they were used on dogs which those tools really didn't work for. Some dogs are so strong or already such pullers that I suggest a prong first. With my own dogs I often use prongs when I walk them in groups, just as a back up. I also have from time to time use them for specific competition stuff. I have a friend's dog here for OB training and he wears a prong when we go to exciting places because he is large, heavy coated and it is nice to have a bit of extra control when needed, as he has had little prior training. In what circumstances is it ok?  How should one be used?  I don't think there are set circumstances where you could say "now it is ok to use a prong and no it is not". For me, if I feel the prong is the best tool for the situation/dog that is what I use. I will use them both as self correcting and with small leash corrections, again depending on the situation. I don't think they should be used with flexis, with angry trainers or in a way which would hurt the dog. I fit them snug but not tight and higher up on the neck. For most LLW issues, I will try to have the owner wean the dog off of the prong but some can't or won't and that doesn't bother me either - as it is their choice.   I prefer prongs over GLs/head collars because IMO GLs are way more aversive to the dog. It is very common for dogs to fight against the GL when first introduced, to "shut down" while wearing it, become depressed and many never totally adjust to it, even after long term use. I have never had a dog fight, shut down, become depressed, have long term issues or have a drastic personality change when using prong collars. Iprefer them to no-pull harnesses because I have not seen no-pull harnesses be all that effective with dedicated pullers, I find them ackward to use and IME it is harder to transition from a harness to a collar. I also really dislike what the front attach harnesses do to the dog's front legs when the dog does pull forward - kind of pinches and squeezes them together. IME the prong collar is still the most effective (and often least aversive) tool available for owners with pulling dogs.

  Filed under: clicker training prong collar slip GL Gentle Leader no pull LLW walking pinch leash correction headcollar Post Points: 0

• 02-22-2008 1:52 AM

  In reply to espencer

  corvus Joined on 08-02-2006 Australia (NSW) Posts 2,150 Points 80

  Re: Prong Collars - dicuss Reply Contact Brace yourself, spence.... Right on. Like I said, prongs aren't really available over here and I wish they were. For the times someone has endangered other people and dogs (not to mention the dog itself) with a dog they can't physically control. The reality is that people will always find a way to get their dog to do what they want it to, and most people want that to happen as quickly as possible. Many don't even care what effect it might have on the emotional state of the dog. They just want the dog to behave so they can take him out and enjoy his company. If a prong is the quickest way they can achieve that, and that's all that matters to them, then go for it. I saw a dog at the dog park on the weekend (my boyfriend and I have turned into creepy dog park stalkers where we hang out in dog parks, forlorn and dogless, and try to coax other people's dogs over for cuddles) who got a belting because she didn't like strange dogs coming over and playing with her puppy friend. She cringed and cowered and I couldn't watch, but that's what life is like. Maybe if those people had a prong their dog wouldn't cop so many beatings. I'd far rather watch a prong correction than someone smacking their dog over the head.  As for those more informed owners who have used prongs.... I won't say I personally agree with it or that I personally would ever use one, but I can totally see why you would use one and trust that no one here would do anything to harm their dogs. I'm a big softy and can't stand to watch something that I wouldn't like done to me, and there's a lot of things I wouldn't like done to me. Just today I felt bad because I picked up a baby dragon to get a better look at its adorableness and it jumped off my hand and landed quite heavily. I don't even know if that landing hurt or not, but it looked rough and that's all I've got to go on. So bad me for letting the baby dragon feel like trying to commit suicide. People ridicule me for being such a big softy, but that's me and whether I'm right or wrong doesn't matter, just whether I'm comfortable with my actions and my moral standards. Melissa's family: Penny - corgi, Kit - wild hare, Bonnie - rabbit, Kivi Tarro - Finnish Lapphund "She's always talking about her hare."

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