Forum Post

Chico's losing hair .. still.

Last post 01-30-2008 2:42 PM by sallya. 18 replies.
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  • 01-24-2008 12:48 PM

    • redlegos
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    Chico's losing hair .. still.

    Chico went to the vet in November. Shortly before then is when we noticed he was losing hair. [Around the eyes, behind the ears, on base of tail.] They gave him a steroid shot, and it helped for awhile but it started up again, that's why we took him today.

    We saw a different vet at the usual place we go to. He was extremely nice and explained everything very well, without me having to ask much. Anyway, he scraped the skin and said it wasn't mites/mange, and he didn't have fleas so he thinks it's allergies. Since the steroid shot didn't help and Benadryl doesn't really seem to do anything except make him tired.. we are now trying this medicine, Atopica. We have it in the 25mg and have to give it once a day for 30 days, and then after that like once a week.

    I was just curious if anyone has tried this? The vet said that if the shot didn't work, this most likely would ..but it's weird to him because usually the shots work. I'm thinking this will help because unlike the shot it will be stong in his system for awhile.. where as the shot sort of wears off.


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  • 01-24-2008 1:35 PM In reply to redlegos

    • Amina
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    Re: Chico's losing hair .. still.

     We had a similar problem with Zok, but after the hair fell off, the skin started crusting over. His nose looked like it doubled in size because the skin around it was black and crusted.

     We tried antibiotics, antifungals, steroids... until we switched vets.

    One simple blood test revealed a thyroid deficiency. The thyroid controls overall health, but in the skin specifically, it controls healthy regrowth. The skin is supposed to slough off and replace itself, but with a thyroid deficiency, this replacement is slower and can cause problems such as hair loss, and secondary issues such as infection.

     Perhaps this is a possibility with Chico.



     

    Amina Myriam Wojcik
    StillMotion Photography & Cinematography
    stillmotion.ca
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  • 01-24-2008 1:36 PM In reply to redlegos

    • cakana
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    Re: Chico's losing hair .. still.

    I've been using Atopica with my allergy lab, Sassy, for about a year and half now and we've had good results. I also give her benadryl every day tho. It's an expensive drug (the Atopica), especially for a large dog like mine, but it's better than fighting the infections she was getting. We've only been able to wean her down to 5 days a week though, so I hope you're able to go with less than that.  I give it to Sassy every day except Monday and Friday. I tried to wean her down more and she started itching like crazy, so I upped it again. This is also the worst time of year for her, so I may try again in the spring. Good luck to you and Chico though. I hope it works for you.

    ~ Cathy ~
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  • 01-24-2008 1:43 PM In reply to redlegos

    Re: Chico's losing hair .. still.

    Oh man -- I am SO familiar with it.  *sigh*

     Atopica is cyclosporine.  It's what they call a "super steroid" -- it's not actually a steroid but is "steroid-like".  It's a major immune suppressor, Red.   It's the same drug they give humans who have had organ replacement surgery -- specifically TO suppress the immune system so the body won't reject the organ. 

    It's not being used much for dog allergies --not like it was a few years ago (when they thot it was the greatest thing since sliced bread).  It's unbelievably hard on the liver and kidneys.  We're beginning to find that despite all the things we did to try to limit the damage to Billy's body, his kidneys WERE damaged.  We don't know how much yet.

    It's simply a bad month for allergies -- whether up north where everyone's running their heat and everything is 'dry' or down south where everything is in bloom. 

    The problem is -- there really isn't a 'cure' for allergies.  Truly there is not.  It's a lot of work to 'maintain' them without drugs that are injurious.  I wish the vet had tried a different antihistamine ...

    Sorry, you asked if anyone has had 'experience' and man, I sure have.  And honestly?  It doesn't *always* help the skin either.  Billy's skin was horrible while he was on it.  It helps some dogs.  But boy there is a HUGE price to that 'help'. 

    A few years ago when I was at the UF  summer "Dog Owners and Breeders" seminar, Atopica was all the rage.  And now they don't mention it at all -- I asked one of the vets why, and she told me it was simply because the side effects are so great they really don't use it much for allergies at this point.  25 mg is a stiff dose for Chico.  It tends to take a while for it to build up enough in the system to do much -- that's probably why they started him at such a high dose with the idea of tapering off.

     As I've said before you may think the Benedryl isn't doing anything ... but it's often doing more than you think.  But it can't do it ALL.  Dog allergies can be incredibly severe and one medicine alone often doesn't do enough. 

     


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  • 01-24-2008 2:16 PM In reply to calliecritturs

    • cakana
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    Re: Chico's losing hair .. still.

    I just wanted to add a couple things. If you haven't had thyroid testing done, that would be first on my list. Sassy was, in addition to the allergy problems, very hypothyroid. Her hair had thinned so much she looked like a cocoa lab instead of a black lab. Once on the meds, she filled in nicely and also dropped a lot of weight, which was good. However, it didn't help completely and it was a few months later that she had a skin infection that took about 4 months and a lot of different antibiotics to clear up. We then had her allergy tested and she came back extremely high on many different things. Our derm vet felt that using the allergy serums wouldn't provide enough relief for her and suggested we try the Atopica. She also suggested we continue using the benadryl because we knew it was providing some relief. I give Sassy 75mg of benadryl everyday, AM & PM. She gets fish oil and Vit E and I also give her a thyroid pill AM & PM and I give her Ketaconazale in the AM (the vet feels that it helps with the yeast and also allows us to use a lower dose of the Atopica). Sassy gets the Atopica in the evenings only. She had a couple bouts of vomitting when she first started taking it, but we now give it to her with her food (as opposed to an hour before or after) and she does fine. Anyway, I know all of what Callie said is so true and if there is any way that you could find another way to deal with this, I'd suggest it.  I don't love spending $200+ a month on meds and also worrying about the longterm affects, but for us, it just seemed like the lesser of two evils.

    ~ Cathy ~
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  • 01-24-2008 3:19 PM In reply to cakana

    Re: Chico's losing hair .. still.

    Could be yeast/bacteria. An Dermatologist vet should check and he can give meds and shampoos to get rid of the yeast if it is found. Reg. vets seem to give steriods, specialists find the cause and treat and stay away from steriods. Mine sure stays away from them. I just saw him tommorrow. Wonderful doctor.

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  • 01-24-2008 6:25 PM In reply to sallya

    • redlegos
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    Re: Chico's losing hair .. still.

    The thing is, we've tried almost everything. All kinds of shampoos (oatmeal, medicated, ect.) plus Benadryl, shots.. and now this.

    All that the Benadryl and the steroid shot did was leave him itchy, tired and grouchy. Plus, with the shot he had loose stools. As of now he's up playing with his friend Jake (my sister's dog) and Pedro. He's itching, but not as much.

    I just don't know what to do anymore. I don't want to give him pills [Benadryl] that doesn't even help, even though they're suppose to.. and the only thing that they really do is leaving him acting dead. The vet told me, as well as the paper that I got with the medicine, that the most common side effects from the Atopica is vomiting and/or diarrhea. So far, he's acting great.

     His coat is very soft and shiny, but he has dandruff. I've been told 3 times before that all this is, is allergies.

    Oh and with the fish oil. The vet did say something about that. Could I just go ahead and try it as well? Regular Fish Oil pills from CVS?


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  • 01-24-2008 9:46 PM In reply to redlegos

    Re: Chico's losing hair .. still.

    You want Omega 3's ... not 'just' fish oil.  You can get them most anywhere and it's good to switch around.  Get a good quality Omega 3 fish oil tho -- a health store one would likely be better (often they're rancid if you try to get them too cheap). 

    You can try different anthistamines -- I know it feels like you've tried 'everything' but honestly you haven't.  Just plain bathing him every day, wiping him down when he comes in from outside -- those kinds of things can help a lot.  Because dogs absorb allergens thru their skin a lot.

    There is a difference between long-term side effects and short term ones.  Yes, vomiting and diarreha are two very common short term side effects.  But I'm talking about long term ones.  Things that happen after they've taken it a few months. 

    It's designed as an anti-inflammatory (same as pred).  But if you read that package insert you'll see a long more potential side effects than just vomiting and diarreha.  Those are "this hurts my stomach" type of side effects.  I'm talking about *damage* -- irreversible damage.  All of a sudden in December the vets got in a BIG HURRY to take Billy off it entirely because they're not going to be able to claim 'no kidney affects' for much longer.

    It's well established it harms human kidneys a great deal and now they're discovering it does dogs as well.  THAT was what I was told when they were taking him off it.

     

     

     


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  • 01-25-2008 11:37 PM In reply to calliecritturs

    Re: Chico's losing hair .. still.

    Did the vet check for bac. and yeast? Can you see a derm. vet?

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  • 01-25-2008 11:59 PM In reply to sallya

    • BCMixs
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    Re: Chico's losing hair .. still.

    Whoa, whoa, whoa, you just posted in another thread about his aggression but didn't mention the steroids.  That's huge.  Steroids can really cause alot of behavior problems in dogs, aggression, tearing through brick walls to get at food, etc.  His aggression could be related to this condition that he's being treated for.  You should talk to the vet again and include the aggression issues, they could be coming mostly from the discomfort he's feeling and the drugs he's on.

     

    Good luck! 


    30 lbs. by Christmas, down 4 lbs., 26 to go!!!
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  • 01-26-2008 2:42 PM In reply to BCMixs

    • redlegos
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    Re: Chico's losing hair .. still.

    BCMixs:
    Steroids can really cause alot of behavior problems in dogs,

     

    Omgsh, I didn't even know that. Nobody even mentioned it to me.

    Today (and last night) he is having severe diarrhea. I don't think he's vomiting, but the amount of poop is HUGE. Should I stop the medicine? Do you think they will refund any amount for any of the medicine (I'd bought two boxes.) Also, he's still itching just as much as he did before we put him on this. It's only been 3 days, but you think we would see a tiny improvement?


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  • 01-26-2008 4:15 PM In reply to redlegos

    • BCMixs
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    Re: Chico's losing hair .. still.

    I think the vet would be the best person to talk to.  Since the meds are expensive, I'd really push for a partial refund and explain to them that you're really trying to help him and get him straight but if the med didn't work or he needs to come off of them for the aggression issues, that you really need that money back so you can continue caring for him.  It might work.  I wish more places (including people docs) would give samples or small initial RXs when trying something that's so expensive!  I have a cabinet full of really expensive migraine meds that didn't work but still cost me bundles and now they're useless.  :(

     

    I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you and Chico!  I think if you get this skin issue and meds under control, you might see a big change in his attitude.  I've heard a bunch of stories about dogs being very much not  themselves on steroids, that's why I thought I'd mention it. 


    30 lbs. by Christmas, down 4 lbs., 26 to go!!!
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  • 01-26-2008 6:37 PM In reply to BCMixs

    • redlegos
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    Re: Chico's losing hair .. still.

    I think what I'm going to do is just not give the medicine tomorrow, and call the vet Monday. I don't want my baby to be feeling like crap. As of right now, I'm a little worried about the refund, because that alone was $76 ..but my first priority right now is getting rid of his itching and now, diarrhea. You can just tell, by looking at him, that he doesn't feel well.
    Maybe I should have gotten his blood taken to see exactly what he's allergic to? I just didn't even know if it'd tell, or be a waste of money. But I suppose it's better than nothing.


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  • 01-26-2008 11:17 PM In reply to redlegos

    Re: Chico's losing hair .. still.

    They should refund the 2d box -- maybe not the one opened.

    Now --you can do the math.  Billy was on 125 mg of Atopica a day for months.  Let's just say the Atopica was more than my house payment.  Trust me -- it's NOT a cheap drug AND you can't use the human cyclosporine.  You HAVE to use the Atopica -- for some reason dogs don't metabolize the human cyclosporine -- the capsules don't dissolve right apparently. 


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  • 01-28-2008 10:08 AM In reply to redlegos

    • BCMixs
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    Re: Chico's losing hair .. still.

    I've heard different opinions on the allergy blood tests.  I've read some people have gotten good results.  I wanted to have it done on Woobie but my vet said they hadn't had good responses to it and it was pretty expensive, so she felt it would be a waste of time.  Is there a suspicion that Chico's problem is food or environmental?   


    30 lbs. by Christmas, down 4 lbs., 26 to go!!!
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