The Socialization Period

• 01-19-2008 1:46 PM

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 9,979 Points 715

  The Socialization Period Reply Contact  Recently, I watched a video by Pia Sylvani, who is the head of the behavior department at St. Hubert's in NJ.  They offer private consultations on aggressive dogs and had kept statistics on them from 1999-2007.  The one thing I found striking was that there were about as many male as female dogs that were aggressive, most were spayed or neutered (the S/N rate is pretty high in their area - Madison), and the only real distinguishing factor was that 80% of the dogs that were aggressive had limited or no socialization with other dogs in the early stages of life. I find that many of the dogs I see for these issues are similar, although I haven't really kept stats.  Couple that fact with the fact that the optimal socialization period for dogs is from 8-12 weeks, and the fact that many breeders and vets still insist that dogs not attend class till they have all their shots (usually beyond 16 weeks), that seems like a prescription for disaster.  Given the number of puppy mills, and Internet mills, and byb's shipping dogs at age 6-7 weeks, thus taking them from litters too soon, only to spend weeks in a pet shop, or in homes with newbies who don't necessarily understand the importance of socialization, it's hardly any wonder we seem to be seeing an increase in aggression, or in reactivity, in dogs. I'm curious as to how you found out about the necessity for socialization, and how do you think that trainers and other dog professionals could get the word out better?  This is just one veterinarian's opinion, but I wish others would follow suit: http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/RKanderson.html   Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 19 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

  Filed under: socialization, puppies, aggression Post Points: 0

• 01-19-2008 2:04 PM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  dgriego Joined on 05-19-2007 New Mexico Posts 1,727 Points 1,075

  Re: The Socialization Period Reply Contact spiritdogs: Couple that fact with the fact that the optimal socialization period for dogs is from 8-12 weeks,    I did not get Hektor until he was 14 weeks. He had spent the first part of his life in a kennel with his mom and siblings and received little if any socialization other than some occasional time with the owner’s kids.    I have socialized him to death and gone above and beyond in doing so. He has taken two obedience classes, we go every week to the pet store and spend at least and hour or two meeting other dogs and people, I take him to many events both dog and people ones, I have walked him around the neighborhood countless times and made a point of always introducing him to the kids and neighbors. I encourage others to offer him treats, which he takes and enjoys.    I cannot think of any way to socialize him more short of quitting my job and moving into some kind of commune and yet he is wary of strangers still. He is wary outside of the home and I must pay close attention to him when interacting with others. Inside the home he is a controlled hostile to strangers. He cannot be offered food from strangers in the home and will not take it if it is offered.  I know that he has the potential to bite someone if not controlled and this has been verified and agreed upon by professionals I have sought out as well. In a controlled environment he is obedient and friendly although reserved with adult strangers and no amount of socialization seems to change this. I wonder if a large part of the problem is his early life before I got him.  If so then is what I am doing the best that can be done and the end result will always be a dog that I can never totally trust around strangers. One interesting note about Hektor is that he adores strange children. I had one of the very young neighbor kids burst into my door without knocking and Hektor ran to the door and proceeded to shower him with kisses, his father was close on his heels and had I not been present and ready Hektor would have harmed him. I think he behaved more aggressive because he thought the man chasing the child was perhaps hostile to the child.  Fortunately all went well with that incident and Hektor is contained away from the front door unless I am present.  Anyway I am drifting off topic but possibly his early lack of socialization is a big part of the issues I see with him. Owned by: Gunnar the Bee Eating Vizsla and Hektor the Pig Dawg Dogo Argentino "I had learned not to care. I blew a few smoke rings, remembering those years. Pot had helped, and booze; maybe a little blow when you could afford it. Not smack, though. ..." -- Barack Obama

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• 01-19-2008 2:36 PM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  Xerxes Joined on 05-08-2006 Posts 5,622 Points 520

  Re: The Socialization Period Reply Contact spiritdogs: I'm curious as to how you found out about the necessity for socialization     Easy answer:  Our family's Akita received little to no socialization as a puppy.  My dad wanted him to be "aloof" so he never allowed play with other dogs, neighbors, or social time with humans other than immediate family.  The resultant dog was more than just a little bit aloof.  He was distrustful, suspicious, always on the verge of aggression with strangers.  Shiloh did not tolerate strange dogs.  He wasn't leash reactive in the least.  He did not, however, make any qualms about giving an audible and visible warning to other dogs well before they got within his "space."  So after having a dog that had no tolerance, I knew that socialization for my naturally "aloof" breed dog was of the utmost importance. .

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• 01-19-2008 2:45 PM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  dgriego Joined on 05-19-2007 New Mexico Posts 1,727 Points 1,075

  Re: The Socialization Period Reply Contact spiritdogs: I'm curious as to how you found out about the necessity for socialization, and how do you think that trainers and other dog professionals could get the word out better?     I just realized I did not anwser the OP's actual question. I found out about socilization in general just through reading many books and taking many training classes accross the years. It became of prime importance to me when I decided to become owned by a Dogo Argentino and knew that socilization would be of prime importance. I did wonder at the time if taking such a breed at that age would cause problems down the road but was confident (perhaps over ) that a lot of socialization and training could overcome any lost time in his early developmental stage. Owned by: Gunnar the Bee Eating Vizsla and Hektor the Pig Dawg Dogo Argentino "I had learned not to care. I blew a few smoke rings, remembering those years. Pot had helped, and booze; maybe a little blow when you could afford it. Not smack, though. ..." -- Barack Obama

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• 01-20-2008 9:19 AM

  In reply to dgriego

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 9,979 Points 715

  Re: The Socialization Period Reply Contact dgriego: spiritdogs: I'm curious as to how you found out about the necessity for socialization, and how do you think that trainers and other dog professionals could get the word out better?     I just realized I did not anwser the OP's actual question. I found out about socilization in general just through reading many books and taking many training classes accross the years. It became of prime importance to me when I decided to become owned by a Dogo Argentino and knew that socilization would be of prime importance. I did wonder at the time if taking such a breed at that age would cause problems down the road but was confident (perhaps over ) that a lot of socialization and training could overcome any lost time in his early developmental stage.     Unfortunately, when they miss the early opportunities for social learning, dogs are often somewhat handicapped for life.  However, since you got him at 14 weeks, you probably did have a couple of weeks where your intervention in socializing him was very helpful, and without it things could have been much worse.  My advice to people is usually to just do the best they can, and employ classical and operant conditioning to enhance the dog's ability to tolerate the scary things in life.  But, most times, these dogs do have some social deficits for their entire lives, even though it's minor for some, major for others.  You probably did the best in this situation that you could, but had I been consulted by a client, I would have advised them against taking a pup that age that had not been socialized appropriately.  That said, I'm sure you love your dog, and that he ended up with you for a reason!  These dogs need owners who are able to provide consistent benevolent leadership that gives them a security blanket of sorts (so that they aren't forced to take matters into their own hands inappropriately).    Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 19 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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• 01-20-2008 10:56 AM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  Veronica's Mom Joined on 01-11-2008 New England Posts 44 Points 5

  Re: The Socialization Period Reply Contact I found out about the socialization period because I did alot of reading before I got my second and current dog. Sadly when I got my first dog I knew nothing and no one made it a point to enlighten me (not that it was anyone else's responsibility, other than my own). I was a little concerned because I didn't get Veronica until she was 10 weeks old, but I have to say the breeder did an exemplary job of socializing her with dogs, puppies, people and children. What was very sad, was when she first came to live with us; she was so used to being with the other puppies that if she saw her reflection in a mirror or window...she would start whinning and try to get "that other puppy" to play with her.

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• 01-20-2008 10:58 AM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  pndhounds Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 141 Points 170

  Re: The Socialization Period Reply Contact spiritdogs: I'm curious as to how you found out about the necessity for socialization  Unfortunately, the hard way.  I found Gypsy as a six-month stray with shoe string tied around her neck that appeared to have been ripped or torn, as if she had escaped.  We took her in, vetted her and cared for her in the hopes of finding her a new home.  She was a stunning and smart pup, so I figured finding a home would not be a problem.  Keeping her didn't seem like an option as we were living in an no-dogs apartment complex.  Of the two homes we brought her for possible adoption,  she tried to bite someone in each.  I had never owned dogs, so I didn't recognize that she was "fear agressive" .  Ironically Anne, it was at St. Hubert's that you spoke of where we had her evaluated and where we completed their obedience classes.  It SAVED her life and ours. I learned that I was so feeding into her fear, and she could not look to me as one who could protect her. I learned the importance of obedience and watching for her signals when she was unsure.  I also learned that, as I took the time and energy to socialize her with people, I believe I failed her when it came to socializing her with other dogs.  Outside of our hound Murphy, I wouldn't trust her around other strange dogs.  Gypsy is now twelve. Like you said, I see her as being handicapped for life.  But....I have become adept at managing her environment when it comes to certain situations.  She is remarkable with my nieces and nephews and the extended family.  She loves the teenagers in my family, but she distrusts them when we leave our property.  The behaviorist really thought that this was probably the population that either abused or tormented her as a pup. When we walk, I say a prompt, "no thanks, but thanks so much for asking" when people ask to pet her.  It is her deficit, and maybe mine too.  I never wanted a bite history so I always erred on the side of caution.  Could she have thrived under someone else's care?  I've often wondered.  So, as you gathered, I believe the early socialization for pups is utmost, but when it is not possible, as in Gypsy and in a dog like Hektor, as their guardians we do the best we can, with the knowledge and history that we have.  Because for me, I am a better human being because this amazing dog came into my life! Coleen  Membered on 03/03 and have never looked back...

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• 01-20-2008 10:58 AM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  pndhounds Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 141 Points 170	Re: The Socialization Period Reply Contact oops. doubled up! Membered on 03/03 and have never looked back...
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• 01-20-2008 11:19 AM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  ron2 Joined on 09-10-2007 far north central Texas Posts 9,516 Points 500

  Re: The Socialization Period Reply Contact Shadow was bought in a pet store at the age of 6 to 7 weeks. Since I cannot find the breeder's name on any breeder list or even on the stop puppy mills database, I am inclined to assume that it was a byb, a bubba with a box o' pups, as I like to put it. The friends who bought him had no in-depth understanding of dog behavior and needs for socialization or extensive training, most certainly knew nothing about Siberian Huskies, just did whatever they do, having been around dogs, here and there. As a little puppy, he was raised around a tomcat and a few other cats and a Jack Russell Terrier. I believe this did affect his socialization. Sibes are prey-driven towards cats but Shadow gets along with them and plays with them. The pic in my sig was not arranged, the pets are not sedated, this is life here, 98 percent of the time. Also, our friend's son, who's girlfriend bought Shadow, used to wrestle with him for play. On top of being a hearty, independent breed, he is used to physical manipulation in play. Which is why physical punishments don't work with him. It's play, a reinforcer. But they did not go to puppy classes or train anything beyond sit and shake paws. And I got him at a year and two months.   The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb

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• 01-20-2008 11:31 AM

  In reply to Xerxes

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,295 Points 335

  Re: The Socialization Period Reply Contact Xerxes: spiritdogs: I'm curious as to how you found out about the necessity for socialization     Easy answer:  Our family's Akita received little to no socialization as a puppy.  My dad wanted him to be "aloof" so he never allowed play with other dogs, neighbors, or social time with humans other than immediate family.  The resultant dog was more than just a little bit aloof.  He was distrustful, suspicious, always on the verge of aggression with strangers.  Shiloh did not tolerate strange dogs.  He wasn't leash reactive in the least.  He did not, however, make any qualms about giving an audible and visible warning to other dogs well before they got within his "space."  So after having a dog that had no tolerance, I knew that socialization for my naturally "aloof" breed dog was of the utmost importance. .  Just an interestng side note about the Akita breed.  An Akita puppy was at our foster dog showing at Petsmart yesterday.  Owner is fostering one of our dogs.  This is the owner's 3 time in raising an Akita.  Her goal this time is to have the dog be a certified service dog.  Yes, exposing the little guy to all these shelter dogs from different backgrounds and treatments, is going help the owner reach her goal.  I am going to monitor the Akita's progress.

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• 01-20-2008 11:49 AM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,295 Points 335

  Re: The Socialization Period Reply Contact spiritdogs: Couple that fact with the fact that the optimal socialization period for dogs is from 8-12 weeks, and the fact that many breeders and vets still insist that dogs not attend class till they have all their shots (usually beyond 16 weeks), that seems like a prescription for disaster.  I surely can see the value in such a study and its reported results to better the dog's situation.  Buts studies always have limited funding and more important a limited project period and sometime there are huge leaps made to come up with the conclucsion. For me the optimal socialization period for dogs is from birth til death.  Focusing on the 8-12 week period seems to doom the dog to a certain life and that life most likely is isolation which then further supports the stated "optimal" period.  I don't believe the stated period carries the dog through its life.  I provided a video here on how my pack interacts with one another.  One of my dogs was diagnosis as socially inept.  The second video proved this wrong.  I shutter to think of my poor dog's life if she was in the hands of those who believe solely in this study. With age and experience, dogs needs change and their role and interaction with humans and dogs change.  Socialization is a continued learning process because of these changes and also changes in the environment.  I bring multiple shelter dogs in my home continuously and I make it a priority to observe and set up situation that encourages socialization.  In other words, I tap into one of the dog's basic natural instinct need.  I wish those that head these studies would do the same because I know for sure the opined results would be different.

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• 01-20-2008 3:22 PM

  In reply to DPU

  ron2 Joined on 09-10-2007 far north central Texas Posts 9,516 Points 500

  Re: The Socialization Period Reply Contact DPU, I can agree with you to an extent and I should have finished my earlier post. I think I have been successful in improving Shadow's social skills in spite of having gotten him at over a year old. Granted, I use a method you disapprove of, and also granted, he did have some socialization with small pet animals as a pup and older puppy, as well as being around kids of a young age. It was just haphazard with no real plan and he was pulled from his litter too early. That being said, I do agree that one can remedy or improve social skills. But I also agree with the study that early socialization is very important, as well as later socialization that continues. And I would agree that all may not be lost with a dog that is pulled too early. But the study can't be discounted just because we may have had some success rectifying deficiencies.   The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb

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• 01-20-2008 4:40 PM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  dgriego Joined on 05-19-2007 New Mexico Posts 1,727 Points 1,075

  Re: The Socialization Period Reply Contact spiritdogs: Unfortunately, when they miss the early opportunities for social learning, dogs are often somewhat handicapped for life.  However, since you got him at 14 weeks, you probably did have a couple of weeks where your intervention in socializing him was very helpful, and without it things could have been much worse.  My advice to people is usually to just do the best they can, and employ classical and operant conditioning to enhance the dog's ability to tolerate the scary things in life.  But, most times, these dogs do have some social deficits for their entire lives, even though it's minor for some, major for others.  You probably did the best in this situation that you could, but had I been consulted by a client, I would have advised them against taking a pup that age that had not been socialized appropriately.  That said, I'm sure you love your dog, and that he ended up with you for a reason!  These dogs need owners who are able to provide consistent benevolent leadership that gives them a security blanket of sorts (so that they aren't forced to take matters into their own hands inappropriately).   Yes and that makes a lot of sense. I have even talked with Dogo people who find Hektor a little abnormal as far as his attitude with strangers is concerned. I am hoping nuetering him will help a little but at this point the family is comfortable in the knowledge that he may never be a dog we can trust 100% around strangers and we will always have to control and or contain him in certain situations.  I think he did end up with us for a reason, the owner of the mother, had never had a litter and knew nothing about raising a litter. The pups were not registered although they are purebred and the reason the owner bred them was to extend his hunting pack. The pups went cheap and all were pretty much destined for hunters and at the price they went for many probably went to the more traditional old school hunter who sees them as a tool and nothing more. I knew there was a risk in taking him, but when I saw him there was no way I could leave him where he was. Owned by: Gunnar the Bee Eating Vizsla and Hektor the Pig Dawg Dogo Argentino "I had learned not to care. I blew a few smoke rings, remembering those years. Pot had helped, and booze; maybe a little blow when you could afford it. Not smack, though. ..." -- Barack Obama

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• 01-20-2008 5:16 PM

  In reply to dgriego

  luvmyswissy Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 1,511 Points 25

  Re: The Socialization Period Reply Contact I'm curious as to how you found out about the necessity for socialization, and how do you think that trainers and other dog professionals could get the word out better?  This is just one veterinarian's opinion, but I wish others would follow suit: That's easy, I missed the socialization periord with River.  I was one of the ones who was told NOT to expose him other dogs until his shots were completed.  It was also suggested that I not allow him walk around on the ground in common areas.   I believe that some of Riv's resource guarding issues were directly related to this too.  I wish I new then what I know now. My previous dog was taken and socialize everywhere becasue no one warned me so I didn't have any fears and he was an angle.  I wasn't until River was past the socialization period that I socializied him to death.

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• 01-20-2008 5:19 PM

  In reply to dgriego

  corgipower Joined on 09-10-2007 new jersey Posts 780 Points 0

  Re: The Socialization Period Reply Contact I learned about socialization when I went to training school with my first puppy. He was about 12 weeks when I got him and I took him to parks and I took him with me when I'd go hang out with friends, and I took him with me to school where he was immediately in the midst of a dozen other dogs and puppies and a lot of people. He also attended saturday classes where there were several dozens of people and dogs. So he was getting socialized before I knew what socialization was. I didn't learn about keeping puppies isolated until after I had raised and socialized about a dozen pups and I had a new vet who wanted me to wait until the puppy's second set of shots before bringing him to the kennel where I worked. I believe that some exposure, in a clean safe environment can help build a natural immune system. I see no reason to not bring dogs to a training class, where the facility is clean and the other dogs and puppies are healthy, considering the vets and breeders don't tell us not to bring them to the vet's office, where there could very well be a sick dog in the waiting room. Proud member of the tenth place CISRA 2008 team!! tweleve.org corgipower.com My Dog Votes!

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