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New Dog & Old Dog Aggression - What to Do?

Last post 11-10-2007 6:26 PM by spiritdogs. 20 replies.
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  • 11-01-2007 10:39 AM

    • Magpies
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    New Dog & Old Dog Aggression - What to Do?

    Help!  We recently adopted a 5 year old German shorthair pointer, a spayed female.  She joined our family of five plus an 8-year old Choclolate Lab, neutered male.  The two dogs don't seem to like one another, and we had seen some growling and snapping.  Yesterday at feeding time, the two got into a fight and the pointer ended up with a gash over her eye - to the emergency vet, etc. etc. and she's lucky she did not lose her eye.  I am just heartsick that we now have a dilemma.  I love this new dog, and we love the first dog.  I have small childern, God forbid that they should be close by when/if this happens again and accidentally get bitten.  I also feel great concern for the safety of the new dog. 

    Clearly both dogs are displaying "alpha" dog behavior in the house.  Ignoring each other, barking at the door, and snapping.  I read some earlier posts about this kind of problem having to do with other breeds, and I see that folks are divided - many suggest rehoming is the only solution, others seem to state that if I can exert my own dominance over the dogs, that their bad behavior toward one another will be quelled.

    My husband is not going to be one who helps me in training the dogs, he does not believe that it would work.  I have talked to a behaviorist (Barkerbusters) who said that they would definitely be able to help us.

     So what to do?  Find her a new home?  Get down to training?  Drop $700 with Barkbusters? And what about my kids?  They are all too young to be seen as an alpha by the dogs, although they have shown no aggression toward the children (in fact, the lab has been the nicest family dog you could ever wish for, very gentle, forgiving and yet protective. 

     Thank to anyone who has any thoughts for me and thanks for your patience in reading about my dilemma.

     

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  • 11-01-2007 11:17 AM In reply to Magpies

    • dgriego
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    Re: New Dog & Old Dog Aggression - What to Do?

     If your can afford the behaviorist I would go that route, since they are there and can see the dogs and can better determine why the dogs are behaving in the manner that they are. With aggression issues it is always best to seek professional assistance with someone who knows behavior and can assess the dogs in person. Doing so over the internet is complex and so any advice including mine should be carefully examined for what might be useful and rejected if you feel it is not. I would start by making sure you have established routines with your dogs. For instance here is how I do it with my two (one of which can be aggressive). For feeding, I require them both to sit while I prepare the food. I then ask them to follow me to the dining room (where they eat) and one must sit in one corner (next to his bowl) and the other must sit in his corner. I ask them to wait (you will need to teach them what this means) and I place the food in both bowls. Neither dog is allowed to get up and start eating but must remain in the sit. When both bowls are full I will step in the middle and wait a moment or two and then tell them okay. They then eat. No one is allowed to leave their bowl to go to the other. If they do I pick up their bowl and place them outside. They do not eat again until the evening meal. Hektor learned very quickly that it was not in his best interests to try and interfere with Gunnar's eating. I also practive NILIF which is not a cure all, but will help to teach the dog that you are the one that contols everything.

      Learn to read their language. Turid Rugaas has a great book called "Calming Signals' that is cheap and teaches you some dog speak. Once you know what you are looking for you can better see when one dog is getting ready to do something he should not. At that time you can step between and redirect that dog’s attention to you. Teaching them to "go to their beds" is another useful command so that when and if they do start to misbehave you can send them to go lie down and cool off.

     If you are giving them new toys or bones do so separately. How much separation depends on your comfort level and your control? If I am giving treats I stand between both dogs and ask them to sit. I then give them the treat and stand between while they eat it and I block anyone that starts sniffing at the other one’s crumbs. Meat bones I separate them completely, one in the garage and one in the laundry room.

     Walk them together if they both walk well on a leash, if they do not then start working on this as walking them together helps (IMO) but it does need to be a controlled walk with you in control. Last but not least, time will often cause things to settle down, unless you have a dog that has a real issue. Often when bringing a new dog in the older dog will not really care for them at first but will as time passes and everyone settles down. Alas this can also go the opposite direction with things getting worse as they settle; again much depends on the personality of the dog. My advice is to seek the help of a professional and to begin teaching your dogs that you are the one in charge. By this I do not mean beating them or slinging them around or 'dominating' them in a bad way. I just mean that you ask them to do something in exchange for everything. Control them if they misbehave by either sending them to their beds or sending them on a time out in another room. Dogs do not like to be excluded from activities.

     

     NILIF   http://www.k9deb.com/nilif.htm

     

    Turid Rugaas :  http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB527http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=1 

     I admit it is not much and apologize for being unable to offer more. Please keep us posted on how it is going.

     

    Owned by:
    Gunnar the Bee Eating Vizsla and
    Hektor the Pig Dawg Dogo Argentino

    "I had learned not to care. I blew a few smoke rings, remembering those years. Pot had helped, and booze; maybe a little blow when you could afford it. Not smack, though. ..." -- Barack Obama
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  • 11-01-2007 11:31 AM In reply to Magpies

    • dgriego
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    Re: New Dog & Old Dog Aggression - What to Do?

    Magpies:
    I have small childern, God forbid that they should be close by when/if this happens again and accidentally get bitten. 

     

     Sorry but I thought I might add something on this topic. Teach your children to leave the dogs alone when they are eating or when you are introducing new toys to them. I do not know how small they are so hopefully you can control this as this is most often when something will go wrong.

     

    Magpies:
    I also feel great concern for the safety of the new dog. 

    I have not often seen a male physically hurt a female, since both are fixed hopefully it will not escalate to anyone getting badly hurt. Again I am not there so I could very well be wrong, always be cautious.

    Magpies:
    I read some earlier posts about this kind of problem having to do with other breeds, and I see that folks are divided - many suggest rehoming is the only solution, others seem to state that if I can exert my own dominance over the dogs, that their bad behavior toward one another will be quelled.

     Re-homing is more often recomended (at least what i have seen on this forum) with some of the very difficult breeds like Akitas and others that have real hard core dog aggression problems. You will know you have one of these dogs if there is blood on the floor and the dogs are acting as if the death of the other is what they most want. Hopefully your situation is no where near this level. Most squabbles never reach this level of magnitude.

     As for exerting your dominance over the dog, my advice would be that yes you do need to be a leader, you do need to teach your dogs how you want them to behave in your home and then insist that they do behave in that manner but it does not mean grabbing and slinging and other bad things often thought of when the word dominance is used. I equate leadership with being in control, being calm, and teaching your dogs what is required and then gently but firmly insisting they do it.

    Owned by:
    Gunnar the Bee Eating Vizsla and
    Hektor the Pig Dawg Dogo Argentino

    "I had learned not to care. I blew a few smoke rings, remembering those years. Pot had helped, and booze; maybe a little blow when you could afford it. Not smack, though. ..." -- Barack Obama
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  • 11-01-2007 11:45 AM In reply to dgriego

    Re: New Dog & Old Dog Aggression - What to Do?

    Real quick (since you already got great advice)

    • Put several water bowls around the house so that they don't have to share and won't fight over water bowls
    • Feed them in separate rooms, or crate them when they eat (I do this with my dogs - and also make them sit/stay before giving them the ok to eat)
    • Do not leave chew toys laying around the house. Train each dog to have their own place and that they have to stay there while they chew on a bone.
    • Lots of walks together and individually.
    • No letting the dogs up on beds, couches, etc. until they work out who is alpha. 

    The key is that you should control the resources and when and how each dog gets those resources individually. 

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  • 11-01-2007 3:01 PM In reply to dgriego

    • Magpies
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    Re: New Dog & Old Dog Aggression - What to Do?

    Thank you for your thoughtful reply, what are NILIF and IMO?  Thanks.

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  • 11-01-2007 3:31 PM In reply to Magpies

    • dgriego
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    Re: New Dog & Old Dog Aggression - What to Do?

    NILIF is Nothing In Life is Free and I posted a link for you to a site that will explain how to accomplish NILIF

     

    IMO just means In MY Opinion and is sort of forum shorthand

    Owned by:
    Gunnar the Bee Eating Vizsla and
    Hektor the Pig Dawg Dogo Argentino

    "I had learned not to care. I blew a few smoke rings, remembering those years. Pot had helped, and booze; maybe a little blow when you could afford it. Not smack, though. ..." -- Barack Obama
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  • 11-01-2007 4:26 PM In reply to Magpies

    Re: New Dog & Old Dog Aggression - What to Do?

    You don't say how long you've had the dog or how you introduced it to you Lab. Since you already have had the dog home for a while, it's best to use the services of a reputable behaviorist; make sure you check that they actually have training and experience; a degree in behavioral psychology is also good. Since there aren't any licensing requirements for dog trainers, anyone can say they're a trainer and a behavior 'specialist' and since you want to ensure you get help you your family and the dogs, it's best to be vigilant about who you get the help from.

    Doing a little research on Barkbusters, it appears that they use positive training methods, which is good...but a couple of the comments on their website would make me ask additional questions of them. They state: "Bark Busters teaches your dog to listen in the home environment. If it does not listen at home, it will not listen outside your territory." While your dog first needs to learn while in the home environment, it then needs to learn outside the environment and with distractions. My dogs comes immediately when I call him when we're home; the first time I tried it outside, he didn't even look at me...the leaves were more interesting (and I was glad he was on a leash then). So they need to work with you or show you how to do things outside the home also. They also state: "This is where he misbehaves most often so this is where training is most effective." Dogs aren't really misbehaving; they're simply acting like dogs and it's up to us, their human companions, to guide them as to what's acceptable behavior under certain circumstances and in certain environments. Overall, the sound like a fairly good company, but as this is a worldwide sort of company as they do franchises, it's more important what training and experience the particular behaviorist who works with you has.

    Most dogs, especially mid-age ones such as yours are, will have a period of adjustment, which is one reason that how they're introduced can be very important. Sometimes when they're simply tussling and deciding who has seniority, if people around them get all excited, the dogs can get more wound up and get into it more than they might otherwise have. Even dogs that have been raised together for years can get into it sometimes; many times playing turns rough, or one or both dogs can get over-excited, and one or both ends up hurt. It's up to you and your husband to control the dogs' environment. That means they shouldn't be left alone together right now; the kids should never be left alone with them (young kids shouldn't be left alone with any dog, IMO); and if the kids are around when the dogs start to growl at each other (which is their warning signal, so don't try to get them to end doing that) tell the kids they need to go to another room quietly and immediately.

    Don't get too hung up on the dominance or pack stuff. While dogs may be a distant ancestor of the wolf, they are much different in behavior. New studies have shown that wolves and dogs have some similarities, but also have a lot of differences. Essentially, we do need to let our dogs know what behavior is acceptable, so if that makes us their 'leader' then it does. But rewarding dogs for good behavior, and ignoring bad behaviors or removing the dog from the room every time he jumps for 20 seconds or so, for example, can do wonders when it comes to having a dog who will be a calmer, sociable companion.

    A good book to read is Dogs: A New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior and Evolution by Raymond Coppinger and Lorna Coppinger.

    Best of luck, and please keep us posted!

    ~ MaryAnn
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  • 11-01-2007 8:02 PM In reply to dgriego

    Re: New Dog & Old Dog Aggression - What to Do?

    dgriego:
     If your can afford the behaviorist I would go that route, since they are there and can see the dogs and can better determine why the dogs are behaving in the manner that they are. With aggression issues it is always best to seek professional assistance with someone who knows behavior and can assess the dogs in person. Doing so over the internet is complex and so any advice including mine should be carefully examined for what might be useful and rejected if you feel it is not. I would start by making sure you have established routines with your dogs. For instance here is how I do it with my two (one of which can be aggressive). For feeding, I require them both to sit while I prepare the food. I then ask them to follow me to the dining room (where they eat) and one must sit in one corner (next to his bowl) and the other must sit in his corner. I ask them to wait (you will need to teach them what this means) and I place the food in both bowls. Neither dog is allowed to get up and start eating but must remain in the sit. When both bowls are full I will step in the middle and wait a moment or two and then tell them okay. They then eat. No one is allowed to leave their bowl to go to the other. If they do I pick up their bowl and place them outside. They do not eat again until the evening meal. Hektor learned very quickly that it was not in his best interests to try and interfere with Gunnar's eating. I also practive NILIF which is not a cure all, but will help to teach the dog that you are the one that contols everything.

      Learn to read their language. Turid Rugaas has a great book called "Calming Signals' that is cheap and teaches you some dog speak. Once you know what you are looking for you can better see when one dog is getting ready to do something he should not. At that time you can step between and redirect that dog’s attention to you. Teaching them to "go to their beds" is another useful command so that when and if they do start to misbehave you can send them to go lie down and cool off.

     If you are giving them new toys or bones do so separately. How much separation depends on your comfort level and your control? If I am giving treats I stand between both dogs and ask them to sit. I then give them the treat and stand between while they eat it and I block anyone that starts sniffing at the other one’s crumbs. Meat bones I separate them completely, one in the garage and one in the laundry room.

     Walk them together if they both walk well on a leash, if they do not then start working on this as walking them together helps (IMO) but it does need to be a controlled walk with you in control. Last but not least, time will often cause things to settle down, unless you have a dog that has a real issue. Often when bringing a new dog in the older dog will not really care for them at first but will as time passes and everyone settles down. Alas this can also go the opposite direction with things getting worse as they settle; again much depends on the personality of the dog. My advice is to seek the help of a professional and to begin teaching your dogs that you are the one in charge. By this I do not mean beating them or slinging them around or 'dominating' them in a bad way. I just mean that you ask them to do something in exchange for everything. Control them if they misbehave by either sending them to their beds or sending them on a time out in another room. Dogs do not like to be excluded from activities.

     

     NILIF   http://www.k9deb.com/nilif.htm

     

    Turid Rugaas :  http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB527http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=1 

     I admit it is not much and apologize for being unable to offer more. Please keep us posted on how it is going.

     

     

     

    I second all that 

    "There are not bad dogs, only bad owners"

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  • 11-01-2007 11:17 PM In reply to Magpies

    Re: New Dog & Old Dog Aggression - What to Do?

     Firstly, if you introduced the two dogs by simply bringing the female home, that was a mistake.  You should have introduced them on neutral territory, and made sure they were compatible before adopting the younger dog.  Now that she is part of the family, you should expect some tiffs over who is going to be in charge.  That has little to do with you, except that you should be in charge of both dogs.  That's where NILIF comes in.  Another mistake is feeding them near one another -it's just an excuse to fight, and no dog should need to worry about another dog stealing its food.  However, if she gets guardy about food with humans, or if your other dog is guardy about food with humans, that would be cause for alarm in a household with children.  Otherwise, just separate them at mealtime by putting them in crates to eat, or in separate rooms with doors closed.

    Do NOT use barkbusters.  They are a franchise with "quickie trained trainers" (and I use the term trainers very loosely).  Overpriced, harsh, and not what you need.  If you lived here, you could spend $300 and get an appointment with one of the best veterinary behaviorists in the country, not $700 for the crap those people do. The people at barkbusters are NOT behaviorists. 

    To find a qualified behaviorist, with Ph.D. or DVM, go here: http://www.animalbehavior.org/ABSAppliedBehavior/caab-directory

     

    Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association
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    Sioux, CGC, TDInc.
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    Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 19
    Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog

    "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George

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  • 11-02-2007 1:18 AM In reply to spiritdogs

    • Dog_ma
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    Re: New Dog & Old Dog Aggression - What to Do?

    This opinion is worth what it cost you Wink  but having lived with fighting dogs, I think that once any real damage has occurred the dogs don't get to have tiffs over who is in charge.  It pays to be aware and not accidentally encourage fighting by favoring one dog or another, but that doesn't mean the dogs get to settle things. 

    If the two don't passionately hate each other (which seems to be the case - no one needs the other dead) you need to create routine and structure in situations that cause tension between them.  Take feeding - they need to learn that there is no dog-dog interaction during feeding. This can happen in a variety of ways, the simplest being feeding them in different rooms and shutting a door. There can be no fighting at meal time if there is no interaction. 

    Some people can establish the above and still feed the dogs in the same room.  It really depends on the dogs, and your ability to supervise and teach.  

    It is a *good* thing when the dogs ignore each other.  Reward that behavior.   

    One thing that helped us is that we had routines of where to be when.  We had them before the aggression started, but I think they would be just as helpful if learned after.  What I mean by routine is that the dogs didn't have as much time to freely interact and think about each other.  "Oh, its meal time. Oh, this one potties.  Then that one.  Oh, I go to my bed now in room x. Oh, we are all going downstairs for potty time."  A dog with an expectation and an agenda is thinking less about the other dog.

    Also be aware of any time that causes excitement.  I had to vigilant as we prepared for a walk, because the dogs would get excited and that increased the chance of tension. Food, toys, playtime, person coming home - all these can be times of excitement.

    If the dogs learn that they can live together and life is pretty good, they will probably adjust (given the breeds).  The catch is that life needs to be good, which means making sure they don't get the chance to posture or fight.  I don't mean punishing growls or whatnot.  I mean preventing situations in which the dogs feel the need to growl or snap or fight. Right now they have negative associations about each other.  They need time to have those associations weakened, and to be rewarded for behaving well around each other.
     

     



    "Are you a dog trainer?"
    "No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night."
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  • 11-02-2007 1:48 AM In reply to Dog_ma

    • cakana
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    Re: New Dog & Old Dog Aggression - What to Do?

    I just wanted to say as someone who's been managing 2 dogs who don't always get along, I 100% agree with what Dog-ma said. It may take some time to figure out what situations create a problem and that can be frustrating, but eventually you get a pretty good feel for it.  One trigger for our dogs is anytime we approach both of them when they're excited and in close proximity to each other. First they're looking at me and the second they start looking at each other, all hell can break loose. It's truly a learning experience but preventing fights is the most important thing you can do. Our dogs eat in completely separate areas and can't even see each other eating. Treats and toys are never left out either. There were times early on when I thought it'd be best for the sake of the dogs and us if we rehomed the newest rescue and I completely understand why some people choose to do that, but we've managed to work out a routine that keeps everyone safe. An evaluation by a behaviorist can answer many questions and give you a good idea of what you're dealing with.

    ~ Cathy ~
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  • 11-02-2007 6:07 AM In reply to Magpies

    Re: New Dog & Old Dog Aggression - What to Do?

    Is that the only fight that has occurred - the one at mealtime?  That was probably not a fight over status.  I'd bet my granny it was a fight over food.  Two totally different things.  Even the "omega" (the very lowest ranking pack member) can hang on to something and keep it from the "alpha" (if he really wants to).  It doesn't mean he is the alpha now, or even no longer the omega.  He just wanted that bone really badly and so he hung on to it.  We humans do tend to complicate things! Wink

    You should not try to define, support or alter the status of either dog.  Some people suggest you do this by always giving treats or attention to one dog before the other for example.  Many times, we get it wrong and exacerbate the problem, or cause problems that weren;t there in the first place.  A lot of the time, the status is fluid - a dog who is dominant in one scenario may defer to the other dog  in another scenario.  The simplest answer is - don't concern yourself about it.  Dish out treats and priveleges for GOOD BEAHVIOUR.  Eg. first to sit is the first to get a treat.

    Just concern yourself about where YOU are, in the position of parent or leader.  You can do this in two main ways - 1. by controlling the resources using NILIF (not by taking things off the dogs, which can just cause resource guarding) and 2. by you attitude, which should be calm, consistent, competent, fair, etc.  Dgriego makes a good point that you don't have to yell or threaten or spank.  Firmly and gently insist on what you want - after making sure that you have definately made that clear and the dog definately understands.  (In most cases he doesn't and that is the reason for non-compliance).

    Do you know anything of the new dogs history, where she came from?  Often, rescue dogs are not as laid back about food as some that have lived in a nice home all their lives.  A lot of rescue dogs have had to go without food at one time or another and they really know what it is like to go hungry.  So that could have also been a factor in the fight.

    Of course, there are pretty much bound to be teething troubles as the new dogs discovers where she fits in and the resident dog discovers this anew.  I don't think you need to worry too much, but you should definately seperate them while eating, for their own comfort if nothing else.  In any case, your worrying will be picked up on by one or both dogs and will not help the issue.  Work out when you need to be cautious (at times of high arousal) and then just try to relax and enjoy having a new family member.

    "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." (Pratchett, Jingo)

    "I used to look at [my dog] Smokey and think, 'If you were a little smarter you could tell me what you were thinking,' and he'd look at me like he was saying, 'If you were a little smarter, I wouldn't have to.'" - Fred Jungclaus
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  • 11-02-2007 7:59 AM In reply to Chuffy

    • dgriego
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    Re: New Dog & Old Dog Aggression - What to Do?

    Chuffy:

    Do you know anything of the new dogs history, where she came from?  Often, rescue dogs are not as laid back about food as some that have lived in a nice home all their lives.  A lot of rescue dogs have had to go without food at one time or another and they really know what it is like to go hungry.  So that could have also been a factor in the fight.

     Great point about the food and rescue dogs Chuffy! I forgot all about that.

      And does your granny know that you offering her up as a ante in a bet? Although I agree it is a pretty safe bet that the fighting has nothing to do with status and everything to do with food, but just on the off chance that we are wrong, is your granny all packed up and ready to go? Wink (sorry I just could not resist)

     Barkbusters sound like they are sort of like the Petsmarts and PetCos in that they may offer basic obedience and such but most of the trainers are probably not that experienced. I also think $700 is a lot, but I was not sure since I have never paid for anything other than classes. Maybe you should call around your area to some different dog places and see if you can get recomendations about other trainers in your area. I have found that the good doggie daycares seem to have a lot of feedback and recomendations to offer on trainers and behavourists.

      I think there has been a lot of great advice offered in this thread.

    Owned by:
    Gunnar the Bee Eating Vizsla and
    Hektor the Pig Dawg Dogo Argentino

    "I had learned not to care. I blew a few smoke rings, remembering those years. Pot had helped, and booze; maybe a little blow when you could afford it. Not smack, though. ..." -- Barack Obama
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  • 11-02-2007 1:13 PM In reply to dgriego

    • Dog_ma
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    • San Diego County, California
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    Re: New Dog & Old Dog Aggression - What to Do?

    I paid $800 for a series of in-home training sessions with Ivan and Sasha.  BUT - the trainer is highly skilled, and the cost included a lifetime of free attendance at classes, and I live in an area with an obscene cost of living.  Everything costs more here.

    I would not dish out 700 bucks to a franchise.  Sounds like a waste of money.



    "Are you a dog trainer?"
    "No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night."
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  • 11-02-2007 2:34 PM In reply to Dog_ma

    Re: New Dog & Old Dog Aggression - What to Do?

    I can save you the $700-- Barkbusters standard approach to stopping dog-dog fights is to throw a noisy chain at the dogs.

    take a pass and listen to the advice here, it's good.

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