Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive)

• 10-23-2007 5:30 AM

  In reply to FourIsCompany

  Chuffy Joined on 12-17-2006 UK Posts 5,498 Points 10

  Re: Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive) Locked Reply Contact Think it's time for me to bow out of this thread.  At least I understand better why others appreciate CM and his methods and how they use them.  Hopefully others can appreciate why I am not his biggest fan and why I see parts of his philosophy as flawed. "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." (Pratchett, Jingo) "I used to look at [my dog] Smokey and think, 'If you were a little smarter you could tell me what you were thinking,' and he'd look at me like he was saying, 'If you were a little smarter, I wouldn't have to.'" - Fred Jungclaus

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• 10-23-2007 5:35 AM

  In reply to FourIsCompany

  Chuffy Joined on 12-17-2006 UK Posts 5,498 Points 10

  Re: Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive) Locked Reply Contact Just wanted to add - bravo houndlove, EXCELLENT post!  FourIsCompany: And the answer is a resounding YES! I have never heard it put so clearly. Thank you very much. I understand perfectly! Thanks for taking the time to explain it. I will still probably think of it and use my terms but I totally understand what you're saying. I think you're saying that operant conditioning=training. And while Cesar uses different quadrants than "+R only" peeps, it's all changing the behavior of an animal based on giving it feedback of some kind or another. RIGHT? Er yeah.  That's what I have been trying to say.  I apologise that I am not so elooquent as houndlove!! "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." (Pratchett, Jingo) "I used to look at [my dog] Smokey and think, 'If you were a little smarter you could tell me what you were thinking,' and he'd look at me like he was saying, 'If you were a little smarter, I wouldn't have to.'" - Fred Jungclaus

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• 10-23-2007 8:56 AM

  In reply to Chuffy

  Rae Rae Joined on 10-19-2007 Wisconsin Posts 5 Points 0

  Re: Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive) Locked Reply Contact Please allow me to share a story which might illustrate why CM doesn't refer to himself as a "trainer."  I know a Springer who has gone to professional training for hunting birds.  She knows her whistle commands, hand signals, and knows her job extremely well.  Recall is good, she can track left or right based on commands in the field.  She graduated her gun dog training with flying colors.  She is an excellent hunting dog, very successful, and good at the job she does.  Extremely obedient, and what people would call "well trained."  But at home the dog is just short of being a terror.  She jumps on people, is dominant agressive toward strange people and dogs, does what she wants/when she wants/how she wants.  She has even gotten on the kitchen table.  Seemingly she is two different dogs - in the field, and at home.  Her "pack" of humans is very unstable with one member commuting out of state, and the other member living between two different houses.  The energy of the pack is in constant turmoil. So is this a well trained dog?  Possibly.  Does she have manners, respect for humans, does she follow the pack leader, or is SHE the pack leader?  Is she well balanced, adjusted, happy, and a joy to be around?  No.  It's relatively easy to teach commands and recall, but it's much more difficult to give a dog balance, peace, mental comfort, and stability.  It may be a matter of semantics whether CM is a "trainer" or not, but clearly it can be seen that the rehabilitation he does goes far beyond teaching commands and recall like trainers do.  My own Weim is an example of this as well.  She was badly abused and dumped at a shelter.  She has "baggage" that has to be dealt with through calm assertive energy, pack dynamics, and stability.  She can read my energy like a book.  It was very easy to teach her commands - sit, stay, wait, come, shake, whistle commands.  But teaching her not to fear bite, not to growl at strangers, not to cower under a table?  That's a whole different story and that is something that conventional training doesn't address.  The power of the pack has rehabbed this dog, and continues to work in her life every day. Pack dynamics, leadership, comfort, balanced energy, and stability are the fundamentals that give a fearful dog the power to be strong and balanced.  Not whistles, treats, and commands to "sit." Just my .02.  Feel free to disregard. Vickey ~ Applied Equine Podiatrist ____________________ Sophia Rae ~ Weimaraner (Vy Ma Rah Ner) Ezekiel ~ Walker Hound

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• 10-23-2007 9:12 AM

  In reply to Rae Rae

  glenmar Joined on 09-10-2007 Northwestern Michigan Posts 11,510 Points 405

  Re: Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive) Locked Reply Contact Again, this is probably a matter of sematics.  When my Sheba was being reactive, when she was wanting to fear bite, I considered it part of training to bring her out of those behaviors. But, FWIW, I would never, ever, want to extinguish a growl in any of my dogs.  To me a growl is a warning and I'd rather have a warning to head than a dog that without any sign suddenly decides to bite someone.  I equate a growl to my asking a stranger to step back out of my personal space......instead of just punching them. A house without fur is not a home. Glenda

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• 10-23-2007 9:40 AM

  In reply to Rae Rae

  houndlove Joined on 08-28-2006 Pittsburgh, PA, USA Posts 4,054 Points 995

  Re: Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive) Locked Reply Contact I have an adopted shelter dog with issues as well--he is reactive and suffers from separation anxiety.  I consider management of both issues a matter of training. For his leash-reactivity we are following a desensitization and counter-conditioning approach. For the separation anxiety we used desensitization, counter-conditioning and crate-training to wonderful results. I don't know what you'd consider our emphasis on providing a calm home with predictable routines for him, but I don't consider it anything special or magical. He's an anxious fearful dog and if I can keep things as stable and predictable as possible for him, he gains confidence that nothing bad is going to happen and he can relax. He operates, as all dogs do, on a level of needing to know what is safe and unsafe for dogs. His natural outlook on the world is that most things are unsafe. I need to let him observe that in fact he's mistaken, much of his world is quite safe for dogs. Leslie McDevitt has been demonstrating that you can provide dogs with a way to safely do this using the principles of operant and classical conditioning. Dogs do what works to get them what they want and training is a matter of assessing what the dog truly wants and then manipulating "what works". For Conrad, what he wants is information about the world around him so he can feel safe. What has always worked for him for that is being reactive and scary-looking. I am now working on turning that in to being calm and observing quietly working to get him the information he needs to feel safe. Last night I made great strides in training Marlowe to relax while he's not actively working on something in agility class. I know both Cesar and Suzanne Clothier and a number of other trainers taboot have recommended that if you want to change a dog's emotional state, one thing you can do is train them to change their physical posture. So I began to reinforce Marlowe heavily for putting his head down on his paws while in his down-stay in class. This is a more relaxed posture, contrasted to his normal "sphinx" down-stay where he remains alert. It's not the state I want him in because sometimes we can be talking with the trainer or waiting for 10 or more minutes at a time. It makes him antsy and anxious and he really loves agility and hates to wait. So, what began as him clearly realizing that he was being reinforced for the purely physical gesture of putting his head down on his paws began over time to morph in to him becoming more relaxed and at ease and even shifting his hind legs to the side to get more comfortable. This is the first time ever he's been able to really relax in class. And all brought about through regular ole rewards-based operant conditioning. Cressida and her best friends:

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• 10-23-2007 9:48 AM

  In reply to ron2

  FourIsCompany Joined on 07-30-2007 Posts 4,738 Points 1,135

  Re: Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive) Locked Reply Contact Pardon if I post a book here, but I want to address some of the issues, questions and comments that appeared while I was sleeping. ron2: What does he say it takes to be a pack leader?   I won't speak for him and I can't possibly answer that in  a post or two or three. I've been watching his show for 3 years and am reading 2 of his books and I'm still learning from him. If you want to know (and I'm not being contentious, either), his latest book is called "Be the Pack Leader". But if it was as simple as "Grabbing your dog by the neck makes you a pack leader", I doubt he'd be as successful as he is. I already said... "Of course, grabbing the neck doesn't make anyone a leader. It's just a tool. Holding a saw doesn't make someone a carpenter, either. But a saw is just one tool that a carpenter can use." People aren't getting the difference between "Doing this makes you a pack leader" and "This is something a pack leader might do." I'm sorry if people don't understand that. That's as simple as I can say it (to borrow a phrase).   ron2: people aren't going to know how you want them to be a pack leader unless you give some guidelines.   I don't want them to be a pack leader. I have no interest at all in people being the leader of their pack. I'm not a missionary, I have nothing to "sell" and I'm not "spreading the word" of Cesar. I'm not trying to convince anyone to "believe" in Cesar. I'm explaining why I do what I do and how it works for me. ron2: a certain tactic will make you a pack leader   About as much as clicking a clicker makes you a dog trainer. ron2: Can we coin the phrase "debate exhaustion" or something like that?   Very good! I can use it in a sentence: When I approach debate exhaustion, I get more and more sarcastic, joke more and I seem like I don't give a poo. LOL espencer: Ah this thread reminds me where i was one year ago, explaining exactly the same concepts to exactly the same people and i dont think i need to tell you if they got it or not   Why didn't you just PM me and tell me not to waste my time? LOL Seriously, it's ok with me if people don't agree. I have learned a lot here and I have had the opportunity to say what I really wanted to say and I feel that, for the most part, I've been heard. And I really want to thank the people who don't like Cesar for at least listening. I don't expect anyone to agree and I don't expect anyone who dislikes him to start liking him based on what I say, but I really appreciate you listening and reading my point of view.   Thank you. corvus: a bunch of crazy words and airy fairy ideas. Naturally, I switched off   And that's just when I switched on. LOL It's simply that some people are more attracted to the "airy-fairy", spiritual, non-physical side of things. Some people are more attracted to the concrete, step-by-step, clinical, scientific side. And my belief is that the MORE I open up to it ALL and not limit myself to one OR the other, the more well-rounded, complete picture I can make. And that's what I get from Cesar. The big picture. corvus: The reason why the right 'energy' works is because once you commit to a particular emotional approach, your body communicates that to your animals and they know your intentions. Beautifully said! And absolutely true! But, you know what? Millions of people don't instinctively know that. They have to be told and taught. Something about their mental patterns since childhood or before don't allow them to simply realize that and accept it with the ease that you do. Just as you may have to be taught other concepts about life that they automatically "just know". Chuffy: Er yeah.  That's what I have been trying to say.  I apologise that I am not so elooquent as houndlove!!   It's not that you're not eloquent. corvus and ron et al have been saying the same thing, too. It just didn't click into place with me until now. Sometimes it takes a little more time and trouble to communicate (especially given our limited means) and it's not about you or how eloquent anyone is. It's just that I just "got" what you guys are saying. I still don't think of it in those terms. I still think the way I think. Cesar is more than a trainer to me. In my context, a trainer is a person who teaches dogs TO DO things. Cesar teaches people how to have a balanced pack (and the dogs follow). I haven't changed my mind about that, but at least I understand what you guys are saying. I'm a bit disappointed that I've apparently completely failed to get my points across as eloquently. LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself) Click Daily to Give Free Food and Care to Animals: http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

  Filed under: trainer vs teacher Post Points: 0

• 10-23-2007 10:19 AM

  In reply to glenmar

  FourIsCompany Joined on 07-30-2007 Posts 4,738 Points 1,135

  Re: Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive) Locked Reply Contact Rae Rae: Pack dynamics, leadership, comfort, balanced energy, and stability are the fundamentals that give a fearful dog the power to be strong and balanced.   Wonderful post! Very nice illustration!  houndlove: This is the first time ever he's been able to really relax in class.   Great story! Congratulations on that! glenmar: I equate a growl to my asking a stranger to step back out of my personal space......instead of just punching them. I just punch 'em.   Seriously, I think it depends on the situation. If I invited the Amway lady into my home, I wouldn't want my dog sitting there growling at her the whole time. But if a strange man approached me on the street... you growl, boy! In the first case, the dog needs to trust ME and let me be the guide as to who can come in the house, while being watchful. If the Amway lady started to attack, again, the dog would go by my response and be in her face. LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself) Click Daily to Give Free Food and Care to Animals: http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

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• 10-23-2007 10:22 AM

  In reply to FourIsCompany

  Chuffy Joined on 12-17-2006 UK Posts 5,498 Points 10

  Re: Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive) Locked Reply Contact I only came back here because you replied Carla, so don't be disappointed in your communication skills or think that we're not hearing you.  I know I am. FourIsCompany: But if it was as simple as "Grabbing your dog by the neck makes you a pack leader", I doubt he'd be as successful as he is. I have not said, and I hope I have not implied, that CM claims this is all you need to do.  He gives people lots of good advice about being a leader IMO.  He gives them valuable information about their posture, tone, timing, body language and "frame of mind" (energy?)  I am suggesting that I suspect that when you offer a physical correction, like the "finger bite", or a collar pop, or, yeah, an alpha roll (not saying anyone here DOES that) it actually negates the position you have been working on so hard in other areas. FourIsCompany: People aren't getting the difference between "Doing this makes you a pack leader" and "This is something a pack leader might do." Here is where we part company - I dont think a "true" leader would do that.  I believe it is beneath them.  I have not met many "true alphas"  I think they are rare and therefore using them for comparison or to attempt to emulate is very difficult.  They have a kind of "presence", kind of like an aura which states loudly and clearly of calm competence and unshakeable confidence.  The kind of person anyone would WANT to follow.  Now here I go with the airy fairy terms!!  I am just trying to think and comminicate in language which might resonate with you.  (Perhaps that is what CM means by energy... that quality that I am calling "a presence", or an "aura"?) I suspect that CM himself recognises this distinction on some level.... Note how he might call a dog "dominant" but when the person becomes leader, they are not dominant  they are calm assertive?  Have I got that right?  What I'm struggling to express is that while the physical corrections are the actions of a "dominant" being, I don't think they are the actions of a calm assertive being.  So that, by using those tactics he lowers himself to the position of a merely "dominant" pack member, rather than the calm assertive leader that he aspires to be. These are JUST my observations, speculations , suspicions and random musings.  Feel free to disregard them totally!! "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." (Pratchett, Jingo) "I used to look at [my dog] Smokey and think, 'If you were a little smarter you could tell me what you were thinking,' and he'd look at me like he was saying, 'If you were a little smarter, I wouldn't have to.'" - Fred Jungclaus

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• 10-23-2007 11:03 AM

  In reply to Chuffy

  FourIsCompany Joined on 07-30-2007 Posts 4,738 Points 1,135

  Re: Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive) Locked Reply Contact Thanks for your reply. I appreciate it.  Chuffy: I am suggesting that I suspect that when you offer a physical correction [...] it actually negates the position you have been working on so hard in other areas.   I've heard this before, of course. And I'm not sure why you suspect that. Because A) I haven't experienced that at all. and B) Cara (my calm, assertive alpha dog) sometimes uses corrections (a dominant behavior) on the other dogs and her position does not suffer. It's a reinforcement of her position. It's a reminder. She is not a "dominant" dog at all. She is a leader. Chuffy: Perhaps that is what CM means by energy... that quality that I am calling "a presence", or an "aura"?   I think that's probably true. A "calm-assertive" energy is a projection of a presence of surety that isn't excited, arrogant, fearful, tense or anxious. There's a "knowing"... It's "the zone". My dogs respond to it. I can stand there all day and extend my arm, but until I back it up with the projection of calm-assertive energy, the dogs just think I look something like a tree. Once I get in "the zone" and extend my arm, they magically respond by backing up, sitting and/or lying down. My husband and I eat in the living room in front of the TV. Four large dogs prancing around, playing, growling, running, etc, isn't conducive to having a nice meal while watching Buffy. My husband (who isn't very practiced in all this) anxiously and a bit pleadingly says, "Get back! Get back, you guys! B'asia move! Hey, be quiet! Down in front"! After a few minutes of this (with no response), I go into the zone, say, "hey" to get their attention and extend my arm... silence... "go lay dawn" I calmly say... And it is done. DH thinks I'm a magician. And when he becomes conscious, he can do it, too. He's learning.   Chuffy: Note how he might call a dog "dominant" but when the person becomes leader, they are not dominant  they are calm assertive?  Have I got that right?   Yes, that's right. A dominant dog is not necessarily a leader. Dominant is not a cut and dried word. The way I think of it (and I'm sure others have their own particular take on this) is that the word "dominant" can be applied to a dog OR to a behavior. A dominant dog can be the pack alpha, but as a dog with a natural leadership "aura", they're not going to need to express dominance very much. You may never see them express dominant behavior. It's just a state of mind. And I think you'll find that the Cesar supporters here rarely use these dominant behaviors on our packs because it isn't necessary. ONLY when a dog is particularly stubborn (Jaia) or is a dog with dominant characteristics (B'asia and Mia), do I ever use these dominant behaviors (such as neck grab and blocking on Mia). Maybe once a month. So, even though Cara is alpha, she is NOT a dominant dog, but she will USE dominant behaviors to put the others in their places. B'asia is a dominant dog. Vetr appt. I'll be back!   LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself) Click Daily to Give Free Food and Care to Animals: http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

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• 10-23-2007 1:57 PM

  In reply to Chuffy

  FourIsCompany Joined on 07-30-2007 Posts 4,738 Points 1,135

  Re: Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive) Locked Reply Contact Chuffy: What I'm struggling to express is that while the physical corrections are the actions of a "dominant" being, I don't think they are the actions of a calm assertive being.    I think they can be. I think physical corrections (a dominant behavior) can be taken by a calm-assertive being. Here's how I think of it. A being can perform a dominant behavior in a calm-assertive mode (think Cesar) OR in an excited-aggressive mode (think red-zone dog) and anywhere in between. When you see what most people call a "dominant" dog, he's simply in an excited-aggressive (or assertive) mode, performing a dominant behavior. Now, he might be in an excited-aggressive or excited-assertive mode most of the time he's awake and that's what people call a "dominant dog". Ideally (nobody's perfect, right?) I NEVER perform a dominant behavior (neck grab, leash pop or blocking, etc) while in an excited-aggressive (angry, anxious, frustrated) mode. Neither does Cara. She's always very steady and calm and I take my lessons from her. A being can also perform a dominant behavior in an excited-submissive mode (fear biter). There are several combinations. B'asia is basically excited-assertive most of the time. She would bounce off the walls if she could. 10 minutes after an hour of exercise, she's back up... bouncing (excited). And she's pushy (assertive). She wants what she wants and she takes it (except from Cara). B'asia sometimes uses dominant behavior to get what she wants. And sometimes she just displays dominant behavior, seemingly for the heck of it (although I'm sure there's meaning). In my last post, I said, "B'asia is a dominant dog." And what that really means is that most times, she's excited-assertive and she displays dominant behavior regularly toward the other dogs and sometimes toward Cara, myself or my husband. She "tests" us (the higher-alpha members) sometimes. She tests Cara more often lately because Cara's letting her get away with it. And B'asia is pushing the envelope. I'm going to have to get some video of them interacting together. And this is what fascinates me about pack structure. Studying how they all interact and the special relationships between them (and us). I can't tell much about any other pack except mine, because the dynamics of the humans involved put a special spin on each pack. Without human pack members, I think most packs would operate fairly identically, but adding in the humans and the circumstances of the home, buts a bizarre twist on the pack function as a whole. There are going to be similarities especially in the dogs, but my pack functions differently than anyone else's. They're like snowflakes. No 2 are exactly alike.   LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself) Click Daily to Give Free Food and Care to Animals: http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

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• 10-23-2007 4:34 PM

  In reply to FourIsCompany

  Chuffy Joined on 12-17-2006 UK Posts 5,498 Points 10

  Re: Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive) Locked Reply Contact I think it would be great to see video ftg of your pack interacting, and your interpretation of what is going on.  I think that would definately aid understanding and it would just be plain interesting.  I'm afraid I don't agree with you re. physical corrections and the whole "is CM more than a trainer" thing, but that's not to say your investment in this thread has been wasted.  I feel like I understand a whole lot better now. "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." (Pratchett, Jingo) "I used to look at [my dog] Smokey and think, 'If you were a little smarter you could tell me what you were thinking,' and he'd look at me like he was saying, 'If you were a little smarter, I wouldn't have to.'" - Fred Jungclaus

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• 10-23-2007 9:10 PM

  In reply to FourIsCompany

  ron2 Joined on 09-10-2007 far north central Texas Posts 9,819 Points 500

  Re: Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive) Locked Reply Contact FourIsCompany: About as much as clicking a clicker makes you a dog trainer.   It was just that easy for me. Just kidding. I agree that being the leader is more than just a certain move or tool. CM's hardest job is not training the dog. It is getting the human to decide that a certain behavior is no longer acceptable and that they will not allow it. That's his biggest struggle. From there, we could use any method, not just his. And, he does have a way with people, which is certainly a true strength. At the same time, I need make no apologies for him, as I used to. If he is wrong on, then so be it. If he has good points, so be it. I don't think he's perfect, but then, neither am I nor is anyone else.   The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb

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• 10-24-2007 10:43 AM

  In reply to ron2

  FourIsCompany Joined on 07-30-2007 Posts 4,738 Points 1,135

  Re: Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive) Locked Reply Contact Chuffy: I'm afraid I don't agree with you re. physical corrections and the whole "is CM more than a trainer" thing, but that's not to say your investment in this thread has been wasted.  I feel like I understand a whole lot better now.   I could not be more pleased. My goal is honestly NOT to have people agree, but to understand. If we all agreed, we'd have nothing to talk about.  Camera battery is charged... I have no excuse now! LOL ron2: I need make no apologies for him, as I used to. If he is wrong on, then so be it. If he has good points, so be it. I don't think he's perfect, but then, neither am I nor is anyone else.   Agreed!  You know, I think you have hit on one of the issues I have here - and that is what I call the "Team Spirit". People attach themselves to the Red Sox or the Yankees and NO MATTER WHAT, they support them and stand behind them. They "attach" themselves to a team for identity. This mindset is fine for sports, being fairly inconsequential, but it has leaked out and permeated into all other areas of life. In politics, Democrats support Bill and Hillary no matter how dishonest they are and Republicans say what a great president Bush is no matter what he does. That's what so many arguments are about. Not the meat of the issue, but the feeling of loyalty to "my guy" and disapproval of "their guy". And that's what I see in a lot of discussions about Cesar. But giving yourself the freedom to say, "I make no apologies for him, nor do I support something just because he said it" takes away the appearance of undying and blind loyalty and I think that's important. There's been a huge push to the mindset of "You're either with use or against us" lately in this world and some people just eat that up! I hate that tendency to gravitate toward one side or the other because it leaves critical thinking out in the cold. The best way to thwart the thinking process is to align one's self with one side or the other. And unfortunately, when a person says they like Cesar, they get pushed into the "Hail Cesar" camp... the "holy alpha rollers". And when someone announces that they clicker train, they're labeled as Cesar-haters, weak-leaders, "permissive" and the assumptions fly. And too many times, the more we talk, the more we get pushed into our respective corners and the more we huddle together under the Golden clicker and the Bronze Cesar statue that represent "our team". LOL        I'm really glad to see that at least some of us have moved through that and are really talking!     LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself) Click Daily to Give Free Food and Care to Animals: http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

  Filed under: Cesar Milan Post Points: 0

• 10-24-2007 2:06 PM

  In reply to Rae Rae

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 10,137 Points 735

  Re: Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive) Locked Reply Contact Rae Rae: Please allow me to share a story which might illustrate why CM doesn't refer to himself as a "trainer."  I know a Springer who has gone to professional training for hunting birds.  She knows her whistle commands, hand signals, and knows her job extremely well.  Recall is good, she can track left or right based on commands in the field.  She graduated her gun dog training with flying colors.  She is an excellent hunting dog, very successful, and good at the job she does.  Extremely obedient, and what people would call "well trained."  But at home the dog is just short of being a terror.  She jumps on people, is dominant agressive toward strange people and dogs, does what she wants/when she wants/how she wants.  She has even gotten on the kitchen table.  Seemingly she is two different dogs - in the field, and at home.  Her "pack" of humans is very unstable with one member commuting out of state, and the other member living between two different houses.  The energy of the pack is in constant turmoil. So is this a well trained dog?  Possibly.  Does she have manners, respect for humans, does she follow the pack leader, or is SHE the pack leader?  Is she well balanced, adjusted, happy, and a joy to be around?  No.  It's relatively easy to teach commands and recall, but it's much more difficult to give a dog balance, peace, mental comfort, and stability.  It may be a matter of semantics whether CM is a "trainer" or not, but clearly it can be seen that the rehabilitation he does goes far beyond teaching commands and recall like trainers do.  My own Weim is an example of this as well.  She was badly abused and dumped at a shelter.  She has "baggage" that has to be dealt with through calm assertive energy, pack dynamics, and stability.  She can read my energy like a book.  It was very easy to teach her commands - sit, stay, wait, come, shake, whistle commands.  But teaching her not to fear bite, not to growl at strangers, not to cower under a table?  That's a whole different story and that is something that conventional training doesn't address.  The power of the pack has rehabbed this dog, and continues to work in her life every day. Pack dynamics, leadership, comfort, balanced energy, and stability are the fundamentals that give a fearful dog the power to be strong and balanced.  Not whistles, treats, and commands to "sit." Just my .02.  Feel free to disregard.     I was with you until the part where you said that conventional training doesn't address behavior issues.  It certainly does if you implement it properly.  We cannot divorce what I like to call "manners, skills, and behavioral health" training.  The three things are certainly different, but training is nothing more than getting a dog to learn - whether it is a manners behavior (sit to be greeted, instead of jumping up), a skill (retrieve that bird and bring it back), or behavioral health (socialization of a pup to anything he needs to tolerate as an adult).  Leadership removed from skill-building is just about semantics to support one's own position on the matter of methods.   Dogs are like humans.  They are always learning.  Not always what we want them to, but learning nevertheless.  Even when we don't think we are training them, we are.  And, the environment certainly is. Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 19 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

  Post Points: 0

• 10-24-2007 2:45 PM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  FourIsCompany Joined on 07-30-2007 Posts 4,738 Points 1,135

  Re: Reward: Millan (Dead or Alive) Locked Reply Contact spiritdogs: Dogs are like humans.  They are always learning.  Not always what we want them to, but learning nevertheless.  Even when we don't think we are training them, we are.  And, the environment certainly is.   See, I would call that "teach", not "train". By your definition, every dog owner is a trainer. Every person who interacts with a dog is a dog trainer, even if the training isn't intended, but just a consequence of the proximity of dog and human. The environment is a trainer. The rain is a trainer, and so on... If this is the definition of trainer, then I can certainly understand why people say CM is a trainer. It seems just about everything that comes into contact with a dog (his food, a ball, a baby, dirt) is a trainer. This appears to me to be disregarding the intent of the trainer. And that's important when I use the word. If a person's intent is to actively get the dog to perform a behavior, then I call them a trainer. If the person's intent is to tend to the needs of the pack and bring balance to that pack by instructing the leaders in their job requirements, I don't call that a trainer. Not a dog trainer, anyway. Perhaps a people-trainer. I think the dog LEARNS from everything he comes in contact with, so I would label all those things as "teachers". But not trainers. To me, trainer implies intent.   From Merriam Webster: Train: to form by instruction, discipline, or drill... train stresses instruction and drill with a specific end in view Teach: to cause to know something... teach applies to any manner of imparting information or skill   LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself) Click Daily to Give Free Food and Care to Animals: http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

  Filed under: trainer vs teacher Post Points: 0