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Using Pressure in Teaching

Last post 10-19-2007 5:51 AM by corvus. 11 replies.
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  • 10-17-2007 12:48 PM

    Using Pressure in Teaching

    This started on another thread:
    http://forum.dog.com/forums/t/61207.aspx

    But I thought this was an interesting enough concept to create its own thread for discussion.

    What do you think of using pressure in teaching? How do you define pressure? Is it physical or non-physical (or do you do both?)  Do you use pressure yourself? Or perhaps a better method of asking is do you purposely use pressure to teach dogs certain things as a tool in your toolbox?

     

    To get it started, this is what I said on the other topic:


    I don't use physical pressure myself, but I do use forms of non-physical pressure and I'm constantly aware of how my pressure affects dogs. Even when we don't think we are, we're often applying pressure to dogs. Like I said, even an eye glance at a dog could be pressure, depending on the dog. I do also pay close attention to each dog I work with with pressure, and I am sure to never put the dog in a situation where it feels anxious or fearful. That's why I'm a huge fan of understanding pressure, because you can really relieve a LOT of anxiety in dogs just by backing up and giving them a bit of space (a key part in desensitization work!) to feel comfortable in.

    You'd be surprised to know how you can teach dogs to repond to pressure. For instance, with Poker, I have taught him that quite subtle movements (not even really a step forward) can make him move his body and shift his balance. I slight movement to the right will cause him to shift back a bit and to the left. A slight shift to the left will cause him to do the same to the right. If I back up, I'm allowing him momentum forward. This would sound quite controlling, until you realize that the context is simply to teach him to free stack and to get him to set himself up in the proper stance so I can reward him for the desired behaviour. All the while he is happily working with me, there is no fear or anxiety involved. I have a video clip of doing just that, I'll see if I can get it uploaded to demonstrate it.

    My girl Gaci has an AMAZING drive for tug. So I've been taking advantage of that to improve her wait and her down/sits at a distance, as well as teaching a "Stop/freeze" motion (for the record, a clicker was not used at all, for any of this! Except to have taught the sit/down/wait to begin with. The bite cue, the release cue, the stopping cue, all done via means other than a clicker! Zip it! What, you say? I do thinks without a clicker?!?!?!). Anyhow, Gaci is VERY driven and in the beginning she used to jump the gun and begin running before I cued her release, because she was so anticipating that bite. All I needed to use to work on that was the use of minor pressure. When she bolted forward, I simply stepped TOWARDS her, with my hand out like a traffic cop (this has become the cue to freeze if she's moving towards me, which we're still working on). In the beginning she came up very close to me before she would stop, and I would have to take a few steps towards her, but now if she jumps the gun, which is getting less and less often with practice (you really have to see her to see how drivey she is, I think she could compete with any SCH dog in that area...lol), and now she will stop almost automatically and resume the position I had asked of her. Rather than view it as an aversive, it has simply become a cue to "freeze and resume position". There is no fear, no anxiety, no withdrawal or avoidance, just an understanding that my movement INTO her space signals that I want her to do something to alter her behaviour, in this case cease forward momentum. I also have videos of this so I'll find them and upload them for you so you can get a visual of how I use pressure to alter behaviour.

    So yes, I do use pressure (for me it's mostly the occupation/relinquishing of space, but there are likely other examples), but I don't use it as an aversive, and if a dog did find it aversive, I would be very cautious in using it to likely not using it at all (applying it, that is). Like I said, I'm quite aware of pressure in the sense that I'll also very happily back OFF of a dog to relieve pressure if the dog is telling me that it is feeling pressured in a negative way, as for me the dog's comfort and trust is always the forefront of any work that we do.

    I'll be the first to admit that pressure is something that I haven't always been aware of, so I'm constantly learning about it and how I wish to define, and to what extend I use it, in my work with dogs.

    Some dogs tolerate pressure very well and use it as a building block to better communication and the desired behaviour. In fact, I know some dogs that work very well on the concept of pressure because I do think it's something they deal with naturally within familial units (ie other dogs). I think dogs understand it quite well the idea of pressure, and I think one benefit of humans understanding pressure is that it can become clear communication to a dog.

    When a dog knows that it can relieve pressure quite easily, they actually experience very little stress. It is those dogs who can't avoid pressure, can't find a way to relieve it, or can't communicate their need for less or who are overpressured that end up suffering from it. And humans who understand pressure in terms of dogs can have a lot better success in working with canine behaviour if they know how to remove pressure from a dog, especially in working with dogs with fears, aggression, etc. This is a working hypothesis for me, and I'm sure that I will change it the more that I experience it. Perhaps I'll clarify some points, or drop some points because I feel they are incorrect. But I think this is an interesting concept that I'm really looking forward to delving into.

    Discuss!

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  • 10-17-2007 12:52 PM In reply to Kim_MacMillan

    Re: Using Pressure in Teaching

    And then I wonder if "pressure" is exactly the right term here? Since pressure encases so many definitions. perhaps there is a better term we could come up with, if one doesn't already exist, to define it?

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  • 10-17-2007 1:36 PM In reply to Kim_MacMillan

    Re: Using Pressure in Teaching

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  • 10-17-2007 1:39 PM In reply to Kim_MacMillan

    • Ixas_girl
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    Re: Using Pressure in Teaching

    Here's a nice description of pressure in a herding context. It's describing balances arising from prey/predator relationships.

    from http://dogplay.com/Activities/Herding/15Feb2006.html

    "Light" sheep are those that tend to run. Sheep herding is about "pressure." Think of the dog approaching the sheep as a person blowing on a sheet of paper. At a distance the paper might barely move, but as you get closer the paper starts to waver, then lift and blow away. Light paper moves sooner than heavy paper. If you don't want the paper to blow away you reduce the amount of blowing - either blow more softly or move further away - that is "pressure." The more the sheep react to the dog, the more pressure there is from the dog. "Heavy" sheep are less concerned about the dog so the dog can be closer or more active without disturbing the sheep.

    One of the interesting things about herding is how the behavior of a flock changes depending upon which sheep are in the flock and how many sheep are in the flock. My instructor has a couple of sheep that the others trust. If the trusted sheep don't run from the dog, the others take the hint. So if a dog is working too closely putting in a trusting sheep or two gives the handler the room to teach the dog without having the sheep take off. Freeway has mostly been trained on very heavy sheep.


     

    http://dogandgirl.blogspot.com/









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  • 10-17-2007 4:38 PM In reply to Ixas_girl

    Re: Using Pressure in Teaching

    Where is brookcove?!?!?!?! Big Smile

    "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." (Pratchett, Jingo)

    "I used to look at [my dog] Smokey and think, 'If you were a little smarter you could tell me what you were thinking,' and he'd look at me like he was saying, 'If you were a little smarter, I wouldn't have to.'" - Fred Jungclaus
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  • 10-17-2007 5:53 PM In reply to Chuffy

    • mrv
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    Re: Using Pressure in Teaching

    Pressure in herding is more than just the sheep.  It can include the fence, the handler, a second dog holding stock.  The idea in herding is a dog that can calmly and confidently walk into pressure,,, THEN apply pressure to make the situation change in a specific and controlled way.  The same thing also needs to occur in protection sports.

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  • 10-18-2007 5:04 AM In reply to mrv

    • corvus
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    Re: Using Pressure in Teaching

    I spoke a lot about this on the other thread, so some of this is going to be a repeat, but I'll share what I have learnt about pressure from my hare (of course!). He's a good teacher of this because he's unbelievably sensitive and putting too much pressure on can have disastrous results that have ended in him hurting himself from time to time. My aim in life with Kit is to keep the pressure always below that threshold where he stops thinking and starts running in blind panic. The tricky thing is that the threshold is always changing, and one day it might be really hard to get him going and other days he might go off the handle if I so much as look at him sideways from several metres away.

    I think of this concept like a bubble or envelope around the animal. When you reach the limits of the bubble, you can keep going, but from there on in you're pushing the bubble, compressing its contents so that the animal inside wants to move away from you to ease the pressure in the bubble. If it can't move away, the pressure increases and the animal eventually gets to a point where it will snap and either flee or attack. Seeing as the bubble is invisible and you can't feel it, all you really have to go by is the behaviour of the animal. With Kit, when he feels pressured he sits up, his ears come up, facing out and tilting back. If he's not very stressed by the pressure and secretly wants to run for fun, his ears will go farther back and rotate slightly towards his back. If he doesn't want to run and is feeling anxious, his ears stay up and he quivers. His muscles tense and you can tell he's ready to take off at the drop of a hat. If he's in that state, I need to approach slowly and I may need to break eye contact. I might approach in a slouching way, leaning back on my heels as I step forwards. The worst thing anyone can do when Kit is feeling pressured is bend over towards him. It looks like a lunge to him, even if you do it slow, and he will bolt, sometimes in that state where he's not thinking anymore. I've found that if I need him to keep moving and therefore can't completely remove the pressure I have put on him but have him poised in a very tense state, I can bring him back from the brink by leaning away from him and nothing else. I can look away and keep leaning back until he relaxes, then center myself again and make eye contact and he will usually stay back from the brink so I can then shift my weight forwards and maybe take a slow step towards him to get him moving sensibly.

    For me, the power of understanding pressure is being able to move Kit around without needing to touch him or upset him. He tolerates pressure well as long as I'm paying attention to him. As I have come to know him better, I've discovered I can also ease pressure to bring him back from the brink of going into fight or flight mode, which is good news for his future health. I've also found I can use pressure to gradually wear away on his resolve so that eventually he chooses to do what he started out not wanting to do. That is important to me and our relationship because it means I can cut down my handling of him to the bare essentials, and he doesn't end up resenting and mistrusting me for pushing him around. He's far easier to get along with and more forgiving when he chooses to do something, even when he chooses under duress. He also gets over it a whole lot quicker, and it's less stressful for both of us.

    I would like to apply the lessons he has taught me to dogs. My old dog doesn't really need it, but I can use a step or a lean forwards to tell her to stop like Kim did in the video (great vid, by the way!). I would like to develop this more with the next dog I have, because I do think it's a very effective way to communicate. I think all animals respond instinctively to pressure in the same ways, just to different degrees. I believe it's a potentially powerful tool and a good way to learn your dog. My greatest joy in Kit has come from learning him so well that I do know what pretty much every posture and nuance of body language he displays means. He has learnt me even better, and it's something quite magical when you know each other so well that it's almost like speaking in words. The only problem is I can't communicate concepts like "I need to do this and you'll feel better afterwards". It never gets past "I need to do this", and Kit responds to that with extreme suspicion. He knows the moment I walk into the room that I mean to do something to him, and that's all he cares about! I'll be interested to see what this approach would achieve with a dog. I don't think there are any real flaws in my communication with Kit, it's just that he's a wild hare and he doesn't always want to do what I'm telling him to do. And he's a spoilt brat that can be very stubborn sometimes.
     

    Melissa's family: Penny - corgi, Kit - wild hare, Bonnie - rabbit, Kivi Tarro - Finnish Lapphund

    "She's always talking about her hare."
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  • 10-18-2007 7:46 AM In reply to corvus

    • mrv
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    Re: Using Pressure in Teaching

    Some far more knowledgeble folk have described flight zones and pressure on livestock.  Rather than misspeak (or mistype) in this post, I thought folks might like to go to the source.

    http://managingwholes.com/cote1.htm

    This gentleman is often credited with discussing this management style in seminars etc.  He pays homage to those who went before to develop these skills.

    A second version    http://www.cattle-handling.com/index.html

    http://www.grandin.com/behaviour/principles/flight.zone.html  The most profound writer and site on the topic I have ever found.  Temple Grandin PhD. 

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  • 10-18-2007 11:52 AM In reply to mrv

    Re: Using Pressure in Teaching

    I don't see "physical pressure" as a teaching tool. A teaching tool is something you use to teach a skill, then the tool is permanently removed. Using "pressure" to move an animal around is just communication, not "teaching".

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  • 10-18-2007 11:55 AM In reply to mudpuppy

    • mrv
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    Re: Using Pressure in Teaching

    Respectfully I disagree.  Herding is very much about teaching the application of pressure to the dog and the stock and the release of that pressure.  The teaching occurs when the dog learns to immediately yield to or apply pressure based on the communication with the handler which may include patterns of behavior, verbal commands, whistles, or gestures or even eye gaze.

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  • 10-18-2007 10:39 PM In reply to mudpuppy

    Re: Using Pressure in Teaching

    mudpuppy:

    I don't see "physical pressure" as a teaching tool. A teaching tool is something you use to teach a skill, then the tool is permanently removed. Using "pressure" to move an animal around is just communication, not "teaching".

    Well, yes and no. I agree that if all that the pressure accomplishes is to move the animal in that instance, then it is exactly as you say, communication but not teaching. And I think that the description of using pressure to stack a dog for conformation fits the communication model quite nicely. But, pressure can also modify behavior long term. In herding, if a dog exerts too much pressure on the stock they move too quickly, to the point of panicked stampedes if the dog's pressure is really too intense. So, to correct this, the handler exerts pressure on the dog, in a variety of ways, to cause the dog to release pressure on the stock. Up to this point we are still "just" communicating with the dog. But talented herding dogs also learn from this pressure, and subsequently read their stock more accurately and rate the amount of pressure they are applying more carefully. Eventually, a talented and biddable herding dog can learn to move stock at a calm controlled rate even when the handler is far out of sight. So, I would have to consider in that case that the pressure the handler applies to the dog during training goes beyond communicating for that instant, and also modifies future behavior. And, I would certainly say that in this sense pressure is a form of positive punishment and negative reward in the OC quadrant sense. It is something the handler adds that reduces the occurrence of a behavior (pushing stock too hard and chasing), and removes to increase the occurrence of behavior (pushing stock at a calm controlled rate).

    A non-herding example of pressure as a teaching tool would be in helping a dog learn to deal with cross tracks in tracking. The dog is following the proper track and encounters a cross track from an animal or another person. If the dog turns and follows this track the handler stands her ground, and applies actual physical pressure on the lead attached to the harness. Depending on the circumstances, the handler may prevent the dog from moving at all, or may simply apply enough pressure that the dog feels more resistance when he's on the wrong track. This does communicate to the dog "No not that new scent, go back to your original track", but it also teaches the dog that in the future they will meet resistance if they deviate from their assigned track. It's a thing of beauty to see a tracking dog detect a cross track, momentarily swing his head back and forth across the cross track, and then continue forward on the assigned track, and it comes from having encountered pressure when he made the wrong decision in the past. Again, I think this fits the technical definition of P+/R-

    .

    Incidentally, Corvus would be a superlative sheep dog.

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  • 10-19-2007 5:51 AM In reply to buster the show dog

    • corvus
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    Re: Using Pressure in Teaching

    buster the show dog:

    Incidentally, Corvus would be a superlative sheep dog.

     

    Why thank you, I think. Big Smile

    This is a really interesting topic to me, partially because of Kit and how I've come to rely on pressure with him, but also because I've worked with a lot of animals that haven't been very tame and have found it to be so very important in keeping from being bitten or kicked or stampeded, or simply losing the animal when it bolts. I think the more attention you pay to an animal's behaviour, the easier these principles become, and the more you find you use them. I think there is a certain level of instinct involved, and I think it's largely behind what makes someone inherently good with animals and what makes someone inherently clumsy with animals. I had no trouble learning how I needed to proceed with Kit once he was weaned and no longer appreciated cuddles, and it kind of came naturally, but my Dad has been living with him for 18 months, now, and still repeatedly does all the wrong things around him, even after I sat him down and told him why Kit didn't like him. I suspect it's largely a matter of empathy and emotional intelligence. All the same, the more you are aware of it, the greater the control you can have, and I think anyone can learn if they want to badly enough.

    On the topic of whether it's teaching or simply communication, I think there can be classical conditioning involved. For example, using pressure I might guide Kit to his cage the same way every night. Pretty soon, he's so used to it that as soon as I come in and get him moving, he automatically goes straight to his cage even when I don't put any further pressure on him to direct him. Of course, every now and then he decides he doesn't want to go to bed and leads me on a merry chase from hiding place to hiding place, but hey, he's wild and sometimes has his own ideas. I've never used physical pressure in such a way, but I think it could also be used to establish habits. I think Four had an example at feeding time.

    Thanks a lot for the links, mrv. They put into words a lot of stuff I already knew from my dealings with cattle as a high school student, especially the balance point. I expect Kit has one of those, but he's too small to really be able to tell. I think generally speaking cattle and sheep are easy, even when they're practically wild. I have tried herding kangaroos (in torrential rain, mind you) and it's extraordinarily difficult because although they are a social animal, they don't flock or herd. I guess they mob. Smile Which ultimately means they have no problem with just scattering in all directions and regrouping afterwards. Sheep and cattle will do that of course, but I think they prefer to stick together. Kangaroo mobs just break apart with the slightest bit of pressure and you have them hopping all over the place, which makes them irrisistable to dogs looking for fun! My feeling is with some animals with less of a grouping instinct, one would have to be ultra careful and patient with pressure. In my time mist netting small, social birds, it was the same story. If you didn't push them too hard, they would stay in a group and the whole lot would hit the net, but if you got too close too quickly, they'd all go high and in different directions, leaving you with squat in the net and a bunch of leery birds scolding you from the trees and peering intently around looking for the nets. Herding in 3 dimensional space when you're restricted to 2 dimensions is also difficult! In the face of all of that, domestic animals are so very easy, and dogs the easiest.
     

    Melissa's family: Penny - corgi, Kit - wild hare, Bonnie - rabbit, Kivi Tarro - Finnish Lapphund

    "She's always talking about her hare."
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