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Long Story about Aggression & trying to find a home for our dog. Also in Blogs.

Last post 10-23-2007 8:57 PM by lilybelle. 10 replies.
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  • 10-14-2007 10:04 PM

    Long Story about Aggression & trying to find a home for our dog. Also in Blogs.

    I have a problem.. I need to find a home for our (aggressive) yet sweet (!) dog.

    We adopted a "beautiful blue-eyed baby girl", as one onlooker called her, from a rescue group back in September 2002.  She was born in June, 2002, and we brought her home in September of 2002.  She was so cute!  They told me that she was one in a litter of 12.. and that she was definitely the dominant one in the litter, so that I'd definitely have to do dog obedience classes.  No problem!  I considered myself and educated and responsible dog owner.. dog obedience classes were naturally a part of my agenda, dominant dog or not.  We had no idea what we were in for though... my children were aged 12 thru 17 and we already had a 4 year old chocolate lab we loved and took good care of.  We loved our new puppy and she was charming and sweet.   But then, suddenly, at the age of 2, she started lunging at innocent passer-by once in a while... my kids and I share the responsibility of walking our dogs.  One day my son told me that she acted weird.  He was dutifully walking her around the block at night, and she lunged at some innocent people strolling past.  She'd do it sometimes, and sometimes not.. you never knew when someone would strike her as someone she for some reason did not like.  That summer, she also suddenly and without warning, jumped, then sprung back on a frail blond 12-year girl who was visiting our family.  All of our children were gathered in the playroom, and the dog just jumped up and scratched the girl, alarming everyone (I didn't see this.. the kids said she'd 'scratched' the girl, after jumping on her). Later she did the same thing to another person in our home.. this time it was a dread-locked window washer - I know dogs can become alarmed at things they don't see often.. like umbrellas or something unusual.. in this case, dreadlocks.  We sharply reprimanded her every time she lunged at people, thinking we were correcting her.  But then.. the last day of the summer (we usually go away), she bit someone.  And the next morning, bit someone else.  Both times she was in the care of an employee.. he'd been irresponsible in both cases by not having the dogs on a leash.  The first night, he'd brought them to a dog park, and had returned to our home with the dogs seated in an open Jeep Wrangler.  He opened the car's door's thinking the dogs would run into the house, but instead, both dogs charged at a man and woman strolling by.. and they barked and barked aggressively, he said, for like, 3 min., with  the man holding up his arms to the dogs and the lady cowering behind him in fear.  The employee kept calling the dogs but they didn't listen, and then our dog went around and bit the lady in the buttocks.  The next morning, this employee came over to bring the dogs to the dog park again.. opened the door leading to the garage thinking our car was in the garage.. but it wasn't, and worse, the garage door was opened to the street, and a woman was walking by.  Same scenario....  both dogs charged out (again unleashed) (this employee was fired by the way), and again our dog bit this other woman in the buttocks.  We no longer bring our dog to this summer place.. for 3 years I've paid someone to house her while we go away.  I've spent thousands of dollars on trainers since she was a puppy.  She didn't bite anyone for 3 years, though she is aggressive, while on leash to CERTAIN PEOPLE and CERTAIN DOGS, and also reacts same to people entering as guests to our home... In June, 2007, she bit a 3rd person.  This, having gone 3 years without a nip.  This time, I was away, and my husband walked the dogs.  A lady passed by, and Tif passed in front of my husband and jumped up and (I guess) bit the woman.  When I heard this, I knew we definitely have a problem dog.  I just read CESAR MILLAN's book and it was excellent.  I now know that she is a domiant dog in dire need of a leader.  Our household is too busy and too many people are responsible for our dog's care.. and because of that, there is not a solid leader in the house, so she is the leader, and she feels she must protect.  Old case scenario of wrong dog adopted to the wrong family.  She'd be fine in a household with not so much going on... someone who understands her need for dominance and who can work her so she can relax and not feel the need to assert herself.  I am not sure if I will be able to find a home for this dog.. it is very sad because she really is smart, responsive, and a (they always say it) very sweet dog.. Can anyone help out?  I wrote to Cesar (good luck, right)? and don't want to euthanise her.  I have to be honest with her history.  I can't adopt her out to someone who isn't aware of her past.  That would be unfair to her and to whoever adopts her.  Is there a chance for this dog?  Her mother was a rottie.. and I think she is part German Shephard.. and some say her face resembles a pit bull.. but who knows.  She is medium sized.  Blue eyes.. some say she looks like an Australian Cattle dog.  She would love a job herding animals.. she is strong and a hard worker.  Built!  I would add a picture.. but on this computer.. not sure I have any.  Will do it for anyone that asks or is interested though.  THank you.

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  • 10-15-2007 1:35 AM In reply to Teadrinker

    • Cita
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    Re: Long Story about Aggression & trying to find a home for our dog. Also in Blogs.

    Woo... where to start?

    First off - I don't know what it means to look at a puppy and decide it's a "dominant dog." I'm wondering if whoever told you that might have set you up for some initial troubles - other than the obedience classes, did you do anything differently with your puppy because she was "dominant"?

    Teadrinker:
    But then, suddenly, at the age of 2, she started lunging at innocent passer-by once in a while

    This is actually relatively common and relatively easy to fix. My dog did the exact same thing, and I never figured out what it was that "set him off."

    Teadrinker:
    We sharply reprimanded her every time she lunged at people, thinking we were correcting her. 

    In my opinion (others may disagree) this was the wrong thing to do. It's a logical thing to do, thinking as a human, but from a dog's point of view it can actually cause the unwanted behaviors to escalate, as it seems it might have with you. The dog is walking along and sees someone scary/threatening and starts to lunge and growl to fend off the offensive person. By "correcting" the dog at that time, you can add to the dog's belief that the offensive person really is offensive - after all, all the dog is trying to do is defend herself and chase this person away and the dog gets yelled at! The offensive person causes the dog to get yelled at! But after the dog lunges and growls, the offending person leaves, so despite the yelling the dog was victorious.

    In my opinion, the best course of action for such troubles is positive reinforcement of appropriate behavior (being calm and quiet), systematic desensitization (so the dog associates passing people on the street with good things happening), and redirection of attention (paying attention to the person holding the leash instead of the passer-bys). There are a couple of books that are really helpful with that sort of system, including "Click to Calm" and "The Cautious Canine."

    Teadrinker:
    But then.. the last day of the summer (we usually go away), she bit someone.  And the next morning, bit someone else.  Both times she was in the care of an employee.. he'd been irresponsible in both cases by not having the dogs on a leash.  The first night, he'd brought them to a dog park, and had returned to our home with the dogs seated in an open Jeep Wrangler.  He opened the car's door's thinking the dogs would run into the house, but instead, both dogs charged at a man and woman strolling by.. and they barked and barked aggressively, he said, for like, 3 min., with  the man holding up his arms to the dogs and the lady cowering behind him in fear.  The employee kept calling the dogs but they didn't listen, and then our dog went around and bit the lady in the buttocks.  The next morning, this employee came over to bring the dogs to the dog park again.. opened the door leading to the garage thinking our car was in the garage.. but it wasn't, and worse, the garage door was opened to the street, and a woman was walking by.  Same scenario....  both dogs charged out (again unleashed) (this employee was fired by the way), and again our dog bit this other woman in the buttocks. 

    I don't really understand what you wrote here... was this like a dog daycare/kennel sort of place? If so, as you noted, the employee was highly irresponsible. Guarding the house is a very typical behavior and most dogs will do it to some degree or another - it's very likely that the dogs felt they were defending their home from intruders, not so much that they were just biting people for the heck of it.

    Teadrinker:
    I've spent thousands of dollars on trainers since she was a puppy.

    Could you share with us some of the things the trainers have said? What did they tell you, what did you do, how did it work? How long did you follow their directions, if they gave any? Was everyone in the house working on the training in the same way?

    Teadrinker:
    This time, I was away, and my husband walked the dogs.  A lady passed by, and Tif passed in front of my husband and jumped up and (I guess) bit the woman. 

    Again, this scenario confuses me. Was the woman passing very close by? How was Tif able to jump up and bite the woman while your husband was walking her - what was he doing? Was she on leash?

    Teadrinker:
    When I heard this, I knew we definitely have a problem dog.  I just read CESAR MILLAN's book and it was excellent.  I now know that she is a domiant dog in dire need of a leader.  Our household is too busy and too many people are responsible for our dog's care.. and because of that, there is not a solid leader in the house, so she is the leader, and she feels she must protect.

    Now there are lots of people on this board who will disagree with me, but IMO reading a book or watching a show by Cesar Millan can be a classic example of a little bit of knowledge being a dangerous thing. IMO Cesar has a great deal of success because he has a great deal of experience working with dogs - for a lay person to attempt to imitate his methods or diagnose their dog's problems based on his work can lead to some serious problems. IMO.

    I do think you're right in recognizing that your dog needs some leadership, however. I do not think this is a "dominant" dog or a "need for dominance" - it sounds like for one reason or another she picked up some bad habits that she never quite got over. I'm totally guessing here, but maybe there hasn't been a lot of consistency in her training? It sounds like this dog would benefit greatly from some "Nothing In Life Is Free" training (http://www.k9deb.com/nilif.htm), but for it to be truly effective everyone in the household has to participate in the work. If one person is asking the dog to sit before she's allowed inside, for example, it completely negates the effect if other people in the house let her come in whenever she wants. That means no lazy bums, even the kids have to work! Wink

    One really important fact you neglected to mention in your posts - when you say your dog is "biting" people, how hard? Is it a nip, or is she bruising and/or breaking skin? Also, how old was your dog when you got her?

    From what you've said so far, it sounds like she has some really basic and (relatively) easily dealt with issues. My dog has had some very similar behaviors, but after a lot of work and a lot of consistency he's given up most of them. It sounds like your dog is wary of strangers and perhaps exhibiting some "preemptive aggression" ("I'm going to get you before you get me!") and that carries over into walks, new people entering the house, and strangers passing by the house.

    I also would recommend a vet check and a full blood panel - I know a lot of people on this board have had "aggressive" dogs that turned out to simply have a thyroid problem. With the appropriate medication they "recovered" completely.

    I would be happy to share a more detailed description of what's worked for me and my little stinker dog if you think it would be helpful. I'm primarily curious/concerned about how hard your dog has bitten and what other types of training you have tried - those two answers will really define what course of action might be best.

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  • 10-15-2007 5:34 PM In reply to Cita

    Re: Long Story about Aggression & trying to find a home for our dog. Also in Blogs.

    IMO, the only hope this dog has is you and your family.  If you already spent thousands on trainers and you were unable to train your dog then what do you do?  You can't (as you reconize) adopt this dog to anyone but a child Free home and they have to know her history!!!  They must know, otherwise someone innocent will get hurt.  If you put her in a shelter, chances are they won't be able to adopt her out either.

     Good luck.

     Personally I don't think she sounds that aggressive just really excitable and un-behaved.  If someone would take the bull by the horns and take the time and have the patients I know you could curb this dog.Wink  You can't leave the care and training to be spread out between everyone without a leader, someone has to be the leader or no one will do it correctly.  Especially an employee who wasb;t with the trainers to understand.  Mangement is imperative at this point, especially when you have company.

     

    ETA:  What type of training?  What did you do, what did you learn?  Did you hire a behaviorist too?  How old is your dog now and how long have you been working on fixing this problem.   Issues like this do not get corrected in a training session it take a huge commitment and time, maybe there hasn't been enough of both - no judging just wondering?  I have been managing and training my resource guarding dog for 2 years now and although he has improved so much, he isn't cured by a long shot and probably never will be 100% reliable.  But knowing my dog, knowing his triggers and management make him a wonderful pet non the less.

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  • 10-15-2007 5:59 PM In reply to Teadrinker

    • schleide
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    Re: Long Story about Aggression & trying to find a home for our dog. Also in Blogs.

    I don't think that a new home is the answer here...  I hope that you will get advice here and hopefully from a GOOD trainer or behaviorist, who has experience with this sort of issues and that you and your family will take the time and put in the effort (and it WILL require a lot of effort) to work with your dog. 

     I too have a dog with a lot of the same type of issues you describe.  My dog is both pushy and reactive (I think what Cita is calling preemptive aggression - the best defense is a good offense - this is where the dog is uncomforable and instead of taking themselves out of the situation, they take matters into their own hands, or in some cases, teeth).  What you are describing does not sound to me like insane wild aggression - I can tell you that when we first started seeing aggression (in our case lunging and snapping) in our dog, I freaked out, I was convinced that we would have to give him up or put him to sleep - but then we started researching and we found a great trainer and it turns out, at least for us, while we will need to manage Wes's environment forever to a certain extent, he is capable of huge improvements, and we are capable or working with him and providing a safe and responsible home for him.

    Without judging, I would just ask you to think hard about the responsibility that comes with adopting an animal - it is a huge responsibility to work with the dog, for life.  It is a responsibility to be shared by the whole family...  It sounds like your kids are not so young that they are in danger or aren't physically/mentally able to help out...  So, have a family meeting and see if you can get everyone on board, start NILIF, hire a great trainer/behaviorist (and please let us know what the prior trainers told you/did), and really work with your dog - I am sure you can do this - it is just a matter of getting the right help and advice and then putting in the work... 

     

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  • 10-16-2007 8:44 AM In reply to schleide

    Re: Long Story about Aggression & trying to find a home for our dog. Also in Blogs.

    we will need to manage Wes's environment forever to a certain extent, he is capable of huge improvements, and we are capable or working with him and providing a safe and responsible home for him.

     I think if we start puppies out with that same rationality, then pitfalls can be avoided esp. when we adopt pups with some tendancy that may become troublesome.

    The other most important variable would be to have one person training and responsible for caretaking. Someone with inclination toward caring behavioral techniques. 

    I hope you don't give up on the dog, but change the course that you are on.   There is plenty about this sort of thing, and most of us have dealt with it at least one time!  Don't feel like you have to give up the dog, but read more on all we can do to fix and improve...you can do it!  Many here have!!

    Siberian huskies are a lot like potato chips. We need to have more than one!
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  • 10-16-2007 4:02 PM In reply to Teadrinker

    Re: Long Story about Aggression & trying to find a home for our dog. Also in Blogs.

    What training has she had?  In other words, to what level and what method was used?  Does she respond to "known" commands well?  What about if the distraction level is high?  Has she generalised the cues to all situations?  What about socialisation? 

    I know her "attacks" seem random, but did they have anything in common?  Is it that she doesn;t like hats or sticks or wheelchairs for example?  Tall people?  Blond people?  Nervous people?  Have all the incidents happened close to or in the house?  If you can figure out what is causing the behaviour, you are a huge step closer to solving the problem.  What have the trainers said with regards to this?  Have they diagnosed her as fear-aggressive?  (MOST aggression is fear based) 

    The severity of her bites is highly important.  If they were serious bites, then IMO she should not be rehomed.  The liability is too high.  If she were my dog, I would not live comfortably... I would always be wondering if she had "done it again", was a child in hospital this time etc etc etc.  If the bites were not serious then she sounds more than salvageable to me, but bear in mind I am not a professional and have had only very limited experience with truly aggressive dogs.

    Give her a refresher in basic obedience.  Start her on a NILIF programme and get everyone in the house involved.  Basically, anytime she wants anything, make her work for it.  Ask for a sit, or a down or a go-to-bed or a "heel" or a "watch me" or a "stay".  Use a command she is very very familiar with, to set her up for success and to ensure that if she does not comply, it is not because she is not familiar enough with the cue.  If she does not respond, she does not get what she wanted.  You don't have to get stern or reprimand her... just refuse to put her dinner down or throw the toy or whatever.  Just shut down and try again in a few minutes.  You might be surprised how quickly and well it works.... give it a try.

    I am not sure I really understand your living situation, but it does sound like the dog needs more consistency.  I think you owe it to her to provide that within your home to be honest.... I think every dog deserves this consideration, even if they have not shown aggression or other problems.  You bring a dog home and you make a commitment to provide for her basic needs, like food and walks and training.  Consistency is just another one of those needs IMO. 

    Suggested reading:  Click to Calm by Emma Parsons and Calming Signals by Turid Rugaas

    Suggested forum searches:  "clicker training", "cesar millan", "NILIF"

    "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." (Pratchett, Jingo)

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  • 10-19-2007 2:25 PM In reply to Chuffy

    Re: Long Story about Aggression & trying to find a home for our dog. Also in Blogs.

    It is exceedingly rare to find a home for a human aggressive dog.  If you turn an aggressive dog over to a shelter, it will probably spend the rest of it's life there.

     That being said, you and your family ARE responsible for this dog's behavior and no matter how busy your schedule, you are really the only hope that this dog has of having a wonderful life.  There's been some good advice given on this thread.  Please follow up on this advice and keep us updated.
     

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  • 10-19-2007 3:33 PM In reply to Xerxes

    Re: Long Story about Aggression & trying to find a home for our dog. Also in Blogs.

    she doesn't sound aggressive or dominant to me. Most "lunging" at people or dogs while on leash is a fear-based behavior best addressed by a "click to calm" protocol- punishing or correcting the dog usually makes the behavior worse.

    Biting someone on the buttocks is a classic example of a fear-based bite. Sounds like the dogs were trying to defend their property when the first two bites occurred, and when the people didn't run away your dog, in fear, snuck around to bite from behind. The third bite, well, I'm not sure what happened there since it's not well-described but it's fairly easy to train dogs to not jump up on people.

    The dog sounds highly manageable and trainable and not dangerous at all-- this is a dog who is fearful of many people and dogs. Try reading "click to calm", and "help for your fearful dog".

    As for CM, he has big disclaimers "DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME". Please listen to them. Treating a fearful dog as if the dog were dominant and trying to take over the household will make the dog much worse.

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  • 10-21-2007 7:42 PM In reply to mudpuppy

    Re: Long Story about Aggression & trying to find a home for our dog. Also in Blogs.

    she doesn't sound aggressive or dominant to me. Most "lunging" at people or dogs while on leash is a fear-based behavior best addressed by a "click to calm" protocol- punishing or correcting the dog usually makes the behavior worse.

    I agree.  To learn a bit more about the type of aggression you have, try checking this web page out: www.k9aggression.com
     

    Biting someone on the buttocks is a classic example of a fear-based bite. Sounds like the dogs were trying to defend their property when the first two bites occurred, and when the people didn't run away your dog, in fear, snuck around to bite from behind. The third bite, well, I'm not sure what happened there since it's not well-described but it's fairly easy to train dogs to not jump up on people.

    This sounds like behavior that is common to some of the herding breeds.   They tend to bite from the rear to make scary things go away.  They also assume "best defense is a good offense" when they are frightened, or when they think someone is an intruder.  Also, some of them are guardy, and NOT everyone's friend, even if they have been extensively socialized.   

    The dog sounds highly manageable and trainable and not dangerous at all-- this is a dog who is fearful of many people and dogs. Try reading "click to calm", and "help for your fearful dog".

    And, don't be afraid to acclimate your dog to wearing a basket muzzle - just make her think it's the best thing since sliced bread by feeding her for touching it, feeding her for sniffing it.  Feed her for letting you put it up to her nose and take it away.  Feed her for anything that has to do with that muzzle until you get her wearing it and loving it.  Who cares what people think?  You will have the confidence of knowing that she is the safest dog in the room!

    As for CM, he has big disclaimers "DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME". Please listen to them. Treating a fearful dog as if the dog were dominant and trying to take over the household will make the dog much worse.

    Ditto.  Find a local positive trainer who has experience with fear aggressive dogs, or a behaviorist who is qualified to deal with this (check the Animal Behavior Society web page for listings).  

    You will have great difficulty rehoming her, since she has bitten three times.  Shelters and rescues don't want the liability, and open admission shelters may take her, but they will likely euthanize her once you sign her over.  They do not tell you in most cases - owners are just told that the dog will be put up for adoption.  The lie is not to deceive people, it's to avoid "compassion fatigue" in the poor shelter workers who would bear the brunt of people's anger if they knew the truth. 

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  • 10-22-2007 2:49 PM In reply to Teadrinker

    Re: Long Story about Aggression & trying to find a home for our dog. Also in Blogs.

    Teadrinker:

    some say her face resembles a pit bull.. but who knows.  She is medium sized.  Blue eyes.. some say she looks like an Australian Cattle dog.  She would love a job herding animals.. she is strong and a hard worker.  Built! 

     

     

    Your description makes me wonder if she's got Catahoula or Aussie in her. A pic would be interesting. The blue eyes and merle color (often mistaken for the ticking of a australian cattle dog) is a clue. Both of these breeds are high energy and guardy - the Catahoula is particularly guardy. I agree with the others that finding a behaviorist who can work with her in her own environment is your best bet. If she is a Catahoula or Catahoula mix, I know a good rescue group that can help you with behavior issues or possibly help you in rehoming her if that becomes necessary.

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  • 10-23-2007 8:57 PM In reply to jenhuedepohl

    • lilybelle
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    Re: Long Story about Aggression & trying to find a home for our dog. Also in Blogs.

    My dog also has agression issues towards other dogs and people.  Getting a basket muzzle is a great idea.  My behaviorist told me to get one for lily and never take her anywhere without it on.  You'll have more confience dealing with her because she can't hurt anyone and you'll be able to work with her on her problems because she can still get treats.  Find a behaviorist ASAP to help they can give you step by step intructions and support to help her get over this. The chances of a shelter adopting her out with her agression issues is slim.

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