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Combatting "clicker resistance" in crossover dogs

Last post 10-15-2007 10:28 AM by tashakota. 8 replies.
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  • 10-13-2007 5:10 PM

    • Cita
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    Combatting "clicker resistance" in crossover dogs

     I'm looking for tips on how to get Rascal to start freely offering behaviors more often.

    We've been working a lot on stays and "settles" and other sort of calm, stop what you're doing, freeze in place sorts of behaviors to combat his stranger aggression. He's doing pretty well with that so now I want to move on to some more "fun" sorts of commands, but every time he sees me have some sort of reward he figures what I want is the world's most stationary dog so he freezes in place and tries sitting, lying down, and staring at me with unshakable focus. He's trying sooooooooooo hard to give me a good "stay" that it's hard to get him to do anything else without giving him sort of cue.

    I've been trying to lure him into things, like spinning in a circle, and that's been working fairly well. Today I tried to teach him to paw at the ground by hiding kibbles underneath a towel on the ground, and that also worked pretty well. But whenever he's not sure what to do to get a reward Rascal just freezes in place, so if I want to do any kind of "capturing" I almost have to sneak up on him (so he doesn't realize it's "training time" or that I have food), and it's really hard to do "shaping" because whenever he's even a little bit confused or insecure he just goes back into "statue dog" mode.

    Any tips? I obviously don't want to get rid of "statue dog" behaviors and I think a calm sit is a great "default," but I want him to know that it's okay to do other things too sometimes. Smile 

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  • 10-13-2007 5:19 PM In reply to Cita

    • ron2
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    Re: Combatting "clicker resistance" in crossover dogs

    Cita:
    but every time he sees me have some sort of reward he figures what I want is the world's most stationary dog so he freezes in place and tries sitting, lying down, and staring at me with unshakable focus.

     

    Such is the affect of dogs trained with corrections and/or standard lure/reward. With corrections, they learn not to offer behaviors to avoid punishment. In lure/reward, they learn to do nothing until cued, as only cued behavior gets rewarded. Which is not totally bad. It can help to extinguish bad behavior by not rewarding it.

    Some dogs may have a range of crossover-ability. Shadow is still a little behind the times on offering behaviors, though he did learn to offer by cueing me for training. One thing you can do is present an object and click and treat for any interaction with or movement toward the object. Some use a shoe box. I will use an old butter tub, a kong, a water bottle. Shorten the goals. If he only takes one step to it, C & T. More steps will follow. And be happy with whatever success you get.

    If you get nothing more than a dog that minds and even freezes when you tell him to do so, be happy with that. Those skills can save his life someday.

    The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb


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  • 10-13-2007 5:26 PM In reply to Cita

    • houndlove
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    Re: Combatting "clicker resistance" in crossover dogs

    Just try to make it super easy for him. I had the same issue when Conrad started to cross over and I would do things like hold a toy right in front of his face and click for even looking at it or sniffing it. I clicked for everything. Every little ear twitch and position change, every sniff of something on the floor. I didn't do anything that I really had a set in stone criteria for until he got out of that statue mode. After we made the breakthrough though, I was able to start shaping with him, so there is hope! 

    Cressida and her best friends:

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  • 10-13-2007 5:35 PM In reply to houndlove

    Re: Combatting "clicker resistance" in crossover dogs

    This is an example where sometimes even clicker-taught dogs can also be dogs that "do only as told", if they are taught that way. It's also one reason why I try to do shaping and capturing as much as I can, and use little to no luring. Even luring, while a dog-friendly method, is not allowing the dog to be fully interactive in its own learning; rather it is just following along with what the teacher is "asking" of them. You are seeing here first-hand, the very difference between a dog that has 'learned to learn" and a dog that has "learned to take cues". There is a huge difference.

    Of course you want your dog to have those calm behaviours, I would expect no less. When I ask Shimmer to stay/wait/easy, I expect that she'll do it calmly as well. I also know, though, that when a new session is started, all bets are off and she's free to try out new behaviours at her whim.

    I would pick something very easy to shape, and go with that. Does the pupper know hand targetting? What about targetting a stick (I use a dowel) or a yogurt lid? These things would be pretty easy to shape. Just present the object, and click for any and all interaction with the object. Most dogs, when presented with something novel, would naturally investigate it. So the first time you present it is your best chance at rewarding. After that the dog will likely sit there and stare at you. They are great at staring holes through your head, because they are used to waiting to be told what to do. I would just wait, or perhaps reposition yourself. Maybe pick up the yogurt lid and put it back down, or pull away the target stick and put it out again, but don't force it upon the dog. Let the dog decide to touch it. And I would reward for any and all interaction with it - looking at it, stepping toward it, even leaning towards it. Anything to start the dog on the right path to "thinking".

    Freeshaping is one of my favorite things to do with my guys, even when we don't result in any official behaviours. We've played 101 things with a pop can, I've shaped left and right head turns, touching a yellow sticky note on a wall, and more, without any prompts from me at all. There is nothing more satisfying for me to watch a dog learn in that manner.

    It is a real learning curve when a dog realizes that THEY determine how a teaching session goes. Once they realize it though, there's no mistaking it.

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  • 10-14-2007 6:12 PM In reply to Kim_MacMillan

    Re: Combatting "clicker resistance" in crossover dogs

    Have you tried putting an unusual object in the middle of the room and then clicking any interaction with it?  You could try putting food in it or moving behind it to spark movement towards it by the dog.... Kind of like what you did with the towel, but just with different objects.  Have you tried using a favourite toy that he gets a bit fired up and excited about?

    "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." (Pratchett, Jingo)

    "I used to look at [my dog] Smokey and think, 'If you were a little smarter you could tell me what you were thinking,' and he'd look at me like he was saying, 'If you were a little smarter, I wouldn't have to.'" - Fred Jungclaus
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  • 10-14-2007 7:11 PM In reply to Chuffy

    • Cita
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    Re: Combatting "clicker resistance" in crossover dogs

    Thanks for the input! 

    He'll do some stuff with "friendly" objects. I think putting food in it or around it will help a lot. For example, after I took the towel away, he went around the room pawing at any other objects on the floor. "How the heck am I supposed to paw the dumb towel when it's up on the table? Well, here's my brush on the floor, look, I'm pawing it! Can I have a treat already? What, you took away the brush?! Well, I found a piece of lint over here, look at me, I'm pawing it! Hello, are you getting this?!" finally after he got fed up (and my floor got really clean) he pawed on the plain old carpet and got his jackpot :)

    What I did with the luring was show him what I was looking for a couple of times - just leading him around in a circle with a treat - and then I stopped and waited for him to do it again. It seemed to work really well - after only 2 "almost there" clicks he was offering me a nice circle, but I don't want to have to show him first for everything because that would be a pain!

    I don't so much think that he's "broken" by "expecting corrections for incorrect behavior," he's just offering me the behavior that's worked best for him in the past - quiet, calm, sitting behavior. We've worked a lot to get him to do that for attention instead of jumping up or barking, particularly when I get home. I'm pretty sure he's "offering" this behavior because if I ignore him long enough when he's sitting nicely he gets frustrated and tries to get my attention. "Hey, stupid! Look at me over here, I'm sitting nicely like a good dog! I'm doing what you want! Pay attention to me over here, gosh darn it!!!" He'll bark, whine, and even run over and paw me and then run back and sit down and wag his tail. Very cute, but also hard to work with for training new behaviors :)

    Another question - do you guys have any sort of "cue" for when it's a good time to offer behaviors versus not? Does visually seeing the clicker do it, or do you have a "start/stop word" or something? I would still really like to keep Rascal's default "look at me, pay attention to me!" behavior to be a nice quiet "sit" when it's not training time. I've put in a ton of effort to reward him for sitting quietly when he wants attention and I don't want to "undo it." I also feel bad when I run out of treats or am doing something else and Rascal starts offering the behaviors I was clicking for earlier.

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  • 10-14-2007 8:08 PM In reply to Cita

    Re: Combatting "clicker resistance" in crossover dogs

    Cita:
    He'll do some stuff with "friendly" objects. I think putting food in it or around it will help a lot. For example, after I took the towel away, he went around the room pawing at any other objects on the floor. "How the heck am I supposed to paw the dumb towel when it's up on the table? Well, here's my brush on the floor, look, I'm pawing it! Can I have a treat already? What, you took away the brush?! Well, I found a piece of lint over here, look at me, I'm pawing it! Hello, are you getting this?!" finally after he got fed up (and my floor got really clean) he pawed on the plain old carpet and got his jackpot :)

    Sounds a bit like what houndlove did to get Conrad to wipe his feet!!  Does Rascal get muddy feet at all? Smile

    Cita:

    Another question - do you guys have any sort of "cue" for when it's a good time to offer behaviors versus not? Does visually seeing the clicker do it, or do you have a "start/stop word" or something? I would still really like to keep Rascal's default "look at me, pay attention to me!" behavior to be a nice quiet "sit" when it's not training time. I've put in a ton of effort to reward him for sitting quietly when he wants attention and I don't want to "undo it." I also feel bad when I run out of treats or am doing something else and Rascal starts offering the behaviors I was clicking for earlier.

    Mine just kind of get creative when they see me get the clicker out.  That's when they start throwing behaviour at me.... the rest of the time I just ignore anything I don't want and praise and reward for calmness, like you have been doing.  Don't worry, he'll figure it out! 

    "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." (Pratchett, Jingo)

    "I used to look at [my dog] Smokey and think, 'If you were a little smarter you could tell me what you were thinking,' and he'd look at me like he was saying, 'If you were a little smarter, I wouldn't have to.'" - Fred Jungclaus
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  • 10-15-2007 10:07 AM In reply to Chuffy

    Re: Combatting "clicker resistance" in crossover dogs

    I use a cue to tell the dogs that  "training is over".  

    I don't think click n reward active behaviors during training sessions will interfere with your default sit.

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  • 10-15-2007 10:28 AM In reply to mudpuppy

    Re: Combatting "clicker resistance" in crossover dogs

     I use a generic go.  Meaning, (at least in my head), "try something and we'll see".  I used this on Tasha because she shuts down if the reinforcement rate dwindles because I'm trying to up the criteria.  I have to go v e r y s  l  o  w  l  y  with her.  ;)

    Leslie and the kids..
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