Hooray for freeshaping (shaped retrieve)

• 09-17-2007 3:39 PM

  Pwca Joined on 09-10-2006 Dallas, Texas Posts 1,327 Points 310

  Hooray for freeshaping (shaped retrieve) Reply Contact I've been using Shirley Chong's shaped retrieve with Mal and the dumbbell and it's been kinda slow- mostly because my timing isn't very good. (Sometimes I think that my brain and hand communicate via a cell phone with REALLY bad reception. Sometimes I even think "wait, don't click, he did it wrong that time!" and my hand clicks anyway. ARGH. And a verbal marker really isn't precise enough with Mal, he really needs me to be exact about what I'm rewarding.) Any rate, we'd gotten off on this tangent in which he believed the goal of the dumbbell was to grab it by the end and fling it at my head. This was obviously NOT a desirable state of affairs and I've been meaning to do something about it since he nearly brained Springingpups (who is my training partner) with it last week.  Good training partners are hard to find. :P  So, today, we took a BIG step back and went back to the beginning. Some stuff went faster this time- he started over with the nosepokes right away (I cheated and held it down with my foot for the first five reps) and then started the nose-flipping that'd lead into our original problem. I tried waiting for him to get a tooth hit on it and it wasn't happening (probably because of the structure of his head- he's got a very nice level bite but the end of his muzzle is shaped like this  ____  ------/  And I think that doesn't help matters- a nose bump is really easy, but a tooth hit is hard unless the item is at a particular angle. So I cheated. He's used to me having hands in and around his mouth and I'd been reading about using a finger-hold in "Competition Obedience- A Balancing Act" as a way to teach your dog to close his mouth and not chew on the dumbbell. The author of that talks about using a CR (Conditioned reinforcer, ie a clicker or verbal marker) with shaping a dumbbell hold so I opened his mouth, put the dumbbell in, clicked, and jackpotted- he dropped it to grab the treat, but it took three reps of that before he figured out what I wanted him to do with the dumbbell! Go Mal! He's now putting his mouth on it reliably- the pickup and hold will come in time. I'm just glad that first little lightbulb has gone on.  I love freeshaping and I always forget how powerful it is- I don't find it as useful for behaviors that are easy to teach in other ways (ie sit, heel, LLW, down, stays), probably because they're much more natural than a formal retrieve- so I don't tend to use it nearly a often as I should. I mostly use it to polish existing behaviors. With my next dog, I'm going to do a MUCH better job of keeping a training journal- and I'm going to try and freeshape EVERYTHING I can. :)

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• 09-17-2007 5:00 PM

  In reply to Pwca

  BEVOLASVEGAS Joined on 07-11-2006 Texas Posts 4,157 Points 640	Re: Hooray for freeshaping (shaped retrieve) Reply Contact Way to go Cait & Mal!!!! Amanda "Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, throughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming --- ' WOW, WHAT A RIDE!!!! ' " - Author Unknown
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• 09-17-2007 5:02 PM

  In reply to Pwca

  Liesje Joined on 03-02-2007 Grand Rapids, Michigan Posts 7,100 Points 850

  Re: Hooray for freeshaping (shaped retrieve) Reply Contact I might have to PM you b/c I want to use the SC method as well, but I'm also having issues with timing and getting the dog to understand what we are doing.  I don't have a dumbell but I got a thick stick and even rubbed it with jerky treats.  We are right at the beginning: I'm trying to click for ANY pawing, sniffing, mouthing, or general interest in the stick, but it's hard to tell if she's even getting why I'm clicking.  We do have a big stuffed toy that she will sometimes retrieve and bring back, but I want there to be a difference between an informal play retrieve and a formal obedience retrieve, hence me using the stick.  I'm even trying the thing where I hold the stick and pretend like it's REALLY interesting to me so that she wants to see the stick too.  Like you said, her other tricks were easy so this is my first attempt at free shaping.   vankelderdogs.dutchbingo.net U-CH Alta-Tollhaus-Krieger Lamb Chop RA CL1-F CL1-R TT HIC TDI CGC ("Kenya", GSD) VPC's Coca-Cola CGC ("Coke", All American) Alta-Tollhaus' Bono ("Nikon", GSD)

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• 09-17-2007 5:47 PM

  In reply to Liesje

  Pwca Joined on 09-10-2006 Dallas, Texas Posts 1,327 Points 310

  Re: Hooray for freeshaping (shaped retrieve) Reply Contact  It's a LOT easier to use a dumbbell or a bent stick (off a tree)- I started with the toy on a coffee table at eye level so I could see EXACTLY when his nose first was hitting it, and that helped. One thing that takes time to learn with clicker is when to increase your criteria- if she's consistantly pawing, nosing, and sniffing, I'd drop the pawing and only click for interacting with it with her muzzle (ie sniffing or mouthing.) When you get 20 correct muzzle responses of any type and as soon as she's done with the treat, she goes back to muzzle on the stick, switch to clicking only for mouthing. The other thing that helps is patience. I set up in the living room, on the sofa or the comfy chair with my treats and the dumbbell on the coffee table for the first few sessions- now Mal knows when the dumbbell is out, that's what I want him to interact with. (Eventually, that will be faded, but that's a LONG way in the future.)   HTH, Cait

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• 09-17-2007 6:30 PM

  In reply to Pwca

  Liesje Joined on 03-02-2007 Grand Rapids, Michigan Posts 7,100 Points 850

  Re: Hooray for freeshaping (shaped retrieve) Reply Contact  Where's the cheapest place to get a dumbell?  Also, do you do anything special to get him interested?  Kenya won't even go near the stick unless I give it a little toss first.  She's completely uninterested in all dog toys and chews.  I originally chose the stick b/c the ONLY toy or chew she's ever picked up on her own was a section of leg I had sawed off a bar stool to shorten it.  Can I click for her mouthing it while I hold it?  vankelderdogs.dutchbingo.net U-CH Alta-Tollhaus-Krieger Lamb Chop RA CL1-F CL1-R TT HIC TDI CGC ("Kenya", GSD) VPC's Coca-Cola CGC ("Coke", All American) Alta-Tollhaus' Bono ("Nikon", GSD)

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• 09-17-2007 6:59 PM

  In reply to Pwca

  ron2 Joined on 09-10-2007 far north central Texas Posts 9,827 Points 500

  Re: Hooray for freeshaping (shaped retrieve) Reply Contact Pwca: I love freeshaping and I always forget how powerful it is- I don't find it as useful for behaviors that are easy to teach in other ways (ie sit, heel, LLW, down, stays),   I'm glad for your results. I ended up free-shaping a retrieve and it was faster and far better than all the times before when I would lure and reward, which was kind of hit and miss. But he works for the clicker because it means reward. Out of that retrieve, I have also shaped drop it. And heel started out as touch, which is a free-shape exercise. I was trying to do touch from a distance but he kept following me around. Spiritdogs pointed out that I had the beginnings of a heel. I slapped myself on the forehead and said, "Well, duh! How easy is that?" Now, he hasn't fully generalized heel but I jackpotted heel in one store one time and now, whenever we walk in there, he walks in heel and LLW. And I'm talking about a dog bred to pull hard and run fast out in front. The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb

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• 09-18-2007 3:51 PM

  In reply to Liesje

  Pwca Joined on 09-10-2006 Dallas, Texas Posts 1,327 Points 310

  Re: Hooray for freeshaping (shaped retrieve) Reply Contact Mine is a hand-me-down, but I got Indy's at either J&J Dog Supply or Dog's Outfitter (my new favorite outfitter is Max200, though). They really cost about the same everywhere. I like the plastic ones better than wood, but it's very much personal preference.    To get him interested, I just held it in my hand initially and stood around in a boring room. :P C/t for the first time he sniffed it out of boredom (it helps that my hand at my side is eye/nose-level for him, I think) and then dropped it- he sniffed it again, c/t. He went back to giving eyecontact (his default behavior) so I picked it up and held it and he sniffed it a few more times with me c/t each one and then went "Oh, right, this is what we're working on today."- that sort of thing is fairly easy for him- once he'd done it the first time, he got the game right away when I brought it out again. A boring place to train really helps, and you might even try it with her on leash, initially, just since then she's GOT to stick with you. Some people do the whole 'rub the dumbbell with food' thing, I'm not fond of that because Indy as a younger dog would eat things with food residue on them. A friend of mine puts treats on the floor under the dumbbell and rewards initialy for bumping it to get to those treats (those treats get to be the clicked treats.) You have to wean off that FAST though or the dog may not realize that he's supposed to interact with the dumbbell without food near it, so my preferred method is just lots of patience. :P I think it helps that a dumbbell, rather than a stick, is a pretty distinct/discreet item that isn't found in a normal environment and the novelty alone is enough for a lot of dogs to initially check it out.   I don't know that I would click for mouthing while you hold it consistantly- I'd get her showing interest in it and then transfer it from my hand to a surface, and then to the floor- since she's going to be taking it from the floor and putting it into your hand, and it's NOT a 'mom holds my chew toy for me' behavior.  I'd also be careful not to click for mouthing TOO much- I'm already trying to avoid clicking any time Mal chews on it (I'll click before if I see he's going to or I'll click after he's stopped but I won't click during), since that can be a REALLY hard habit to break later and it's an easy way for the dog to drop the dumbbell in the ring.

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