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Terrible Tzu Twos?!

Last post 09-18-2007 4:22 PM by tzu_mom. 10 replies.
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  • 09-07-2007 8:55 AM

    • tzumommy
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    Terrible Tzu Twos?!

    [:o]My "perfect little boyz" are turning 2yo at the end of the month, and seem to be developing some ugly behavior issues despite my training and socializing efforts.  I'll start with the most annoying issue that is coming from Sam; I will make a separate post for Willie, since they are completely different issues.

    In April of this year, my sweet little submissive Sammy "found his voice" and I unintentionally re-inforced it.  I was outside with my foster dog when I suddenly heard what sounded like an animal caught in a trap.  It was an extremely high pitched screaming and whining inside the house (my dogs are not yappy and normally do not bark without good reason).  I panicked, thinking the 2 Tzus may be having their first fight, or maybe one of them had somehow been hurt and I rushed into the house - (thus the first re-inforcement).  I ran inside, and there they are, just sitting there, looking so innocent, as if nothing had happened. [:@]   The behavior was also reinforced by others at different times; they too were tricked into thinking someone was being tortured. Nevertheless, it subsided after the foster was placed and he had no reason to "scream to get his way". 

    That same behavior has recently re-surfaced in an attempt to get us up and him out of his crate about an hour before it is time to get up.  He will wake up and scream bloody murder from his crate.(poor Willie is right next to him!)  When it first resurfaced, my husband was giving him a stern NO! and covered the crate (that used to work).  Since that is not working (and was probably reinforcing it anyway since it was attention), I have convinced him that we need to do nothing so that he learns it does not get him any attention and will give up. My husband is trying really hard not to respond, (it's really ear-piercing!); we are waiting for the extinction!!  But OMG - WHEN will he give up?!?!?! 

    I want to make sure we are doing this correctly, so I could use some insight from you positive trainers out there[:)]

    When it begins we ignore it as long as possible, but DH usually gets up and closes our door to lessen the volume
    Does getting up an
    d closing the door count as attention? 
    Also: Sam has started taking like a 5 minute break in between screaming sessions :
    Should I get up and reinforce the quiet behavior with a treat or just ignore him until the appropriate time to get up?

    This almost always occurs in the morning while in the crate (they both love their crate, and run to it when the word is mentioned, so I'm sure it is not a crate issue). 

    He did start the behavior last weekend this while playing with Willie in the hall; I calmly picked him up and put him in his crate for a time out for about 5 minutes.  He was quiet in there and didin't do it anymore during playtime.  It feels like I'm giving both dogs a time out though, because Willie just lies outside of Sam's crate and looks at me like "Why did you take my playmate away?"[:(]

    Any insight or recommendations are welcome.[8|]
    Angie
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  • 09-07-2007 11:14 AM In reply to tzumommy

    RE: Terrible Tzu Twos?!

    I dont see anything about exercise, do you exercise your dogs? take them for a walk? how long? how often?
     
    This are a couple videos about similar problems as yours:
     
    [linkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2isNCJNUyY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2isNCJNUyY[/link]
    [linkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayzSLoOA7As]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayzSLoOA7As[/link]
    "There are not bad dogs, only bad owners"

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  • 09-07-2007 11:46 AM In reply to tzumommy

    • erica1989
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    RE: Terrible Tzu Twos?!

    I would def. treat when he is being quiet in his crate. I don't think it's an exercise issue, just a 'give me attention now' kind of issue, altough I could be wrong.
    You could try leaving the room, going outside, somewhere were he can't hear or see you when he starts to scream. This will hopefull get the message across that you don't like that behavior, and it is not going to get him anywhere.


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  • 09-07-2007 12:13 PM In reply to tzumommy

    • tzumommy
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    RE: Terrible Tzu Twos?!

    Thanks for the quick responses!

    ORIGINAL: espencer
    I dont see anything about exercise, do you exercise your dogs? take them for a walk? how long? how often?

    The two Tzus have different exercise requirements. Sam, the one with the screaming fits when things don't go his way, fits, was the runt and has a lot of allergy issues and luxating patellas, cannot keep up with our normal walks; he usually has to be carried for part of the distance.  We walk a mile about 4 days/week when it isn't too humid (Shih Tzu don't cool themselves well due to their smooshy faces) in addition to their rough and tumble play throughout the whole day, and we also do clicker training for fun.  The breed has minimal exercise requirements, but but we do try to work in a short brisk walk; I know it is good for their muscle tone and their mental state. 


    ORIGINAL: espencer
    This are a couple videos about similar problems as yours:
    [linkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2isNCJNUyY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2isNCJNUyY[/link]
    [linkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayzSLoOA7As]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayzSLoOA7As[/link]

    The first video kind of applies to my OTHER dog with the insecurity issues.  That was interesting to watch; thank you. 
    The second video was entertaining, but is not at all what I'm seeing with my guys!

    ORIGINAL: erica1989
    I don't think it's an exercise issue, just a 'give me attention now' kind of issue, although I could be wrong.

    I agree; I'm 99% certain this is a bratty demand for attention issue! LOL! But I want to make sure I am handling it properly.  When it happens, he is in his crate in the living room and we sleeping (trying to!) in our bedroom - so he knows we're there and he knows we're not up doing stuff yet. We do close the door when he starts, but we really can't leave the room, because he can't see us anyway - little brat![:D

    Whether or not to go out and reward the quiet behavior between his "sessions" is what I'm uncertain of.  I would normally reward the wanted behavior and ignore the other stuff, but I'm afraid that I may get him even MORE riled up if I walk out there to give him a treat and then go back to bed!  So that's my dilemma...[:o]
    Angie
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  • 09-13-2007 10:13 AM In reply to tzumommy

    • tzumommy
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    Re: RE: Terrible Tzu Twos?!

    I still need some help on this topic Confused


    My biggest question is:  Do I get out of bed at 4:15 and again at 4:30, etc. to walk into the living room and give him a treat when he stops in between his barking/screeching fits or do I just try to ignore him until time to get up?

    This is getting quite discouraging, especially with DH's snide remarks about how my "training" is not "working" and we might as well just get up whenever the dog tells us to Angry 

    I set us back even further this morning because I yelled at him and told him ENOUGH! and then went in and covered the crate with a blanket.  Which did not stop the madness, it only delayed it for about 5 minutes.

    Do you think getting up to reward him in between the barking will just encourage this game? 

    Should I tell DH to put in some earplugs and ignore him until 5:30?

    DH says we should move their crate downstairs, but I don't think that will resolve anything. 


    Angie
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  • 09-17-2007 2:07 PM In reply to tzumommy

    Re: Terrible Tzu Twos?!

    When it first resurfaced, my husband was giving him a stern NO! and covered the crate (that used to work).

     Um, third reinforcement.  Reinforcement does NOT mean reward.  Reinforcement is simply that which causes a behavior to repeat.  So, attention can be a reinforcer, even if it's negative.

     

    Clicker training can help a problem like this.  If you acclimate the dog to the clicker, so that he "gets" that every time he hears a click, he gets a treat, you can simply ignore him whenever he whines/screams, wait till he is quiet a few moments, then click/treat.  You can click from the bedroom and run into the kitchen to toss the treat, for example.  Time out doesn't work as well, because you are giving him attention, albeit negative attention, which may be a reinforcer for him.  You are correct that it is probably not a crate issue - Sam probably just figured out that the way to make you appear, or pay attention to him, is to scream.  After all, it's been working, hasn't it? Surprise

    When it begins we ignore it as long as possible, but DH usually gets up and closes our door to lessen the volume
    Does getting up an
    d closing the door count as attention?

    Yup. 

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  • 09-17-2007 2:33 PM In reply to spiritdogs

    • tzumommy
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    Re: Terrible Tzu Twos?!

    Spiritdogs - Thank you SO much for the response - I'll go back to the drawing board tonightConfused 

     

    After all, it's been working, hasn't it?

    Yes Embarrassed  - it HAS been working!! Angry

    Sometimes, it's just really  hard to know how to react to some of their antics, but then again, that's kinda what impresses me about the little boogersBig Smile

    Angie
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  • 09-18-2007 2:05 PM In reply to tzumommy

    • cher50
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    Re: Terrible Tzu Twos?!

    Hi there,  I also have 2 shih tzu's, they are about 4 yrs old.. My little female is a screamer, so I know what you mean.. I have tried

    everything to get her to stop.  It is really bad when we have company.. She just goes nuts.... Her brother does not scream, but he is

    a howler.... I hear alot about this clicker training, but have not done it... Does this really work, and are my 2 getting set in their ways

    and just going to be stubborn.. Im glad to know that we are not alone in this issue.. I have asked for help before on this and I have tried

    tried the time outs, ultra sonic tones, can rattling, ignoring the fits. But here I am still with the same problem.. Cant afford a trainer, so

    it has to be something we can do ourselves.... Please let me know if you or anyone has a answer..... The jealousy is unreal too..

    Never had such stubborn dogs in my life... I love them dearly, but I just an ready to give up...AngryAngry

    Cheryl
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  • 09-18-2007 3:55 PM In reply to cher50

    • tzu_mom
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    Re: Terrible Tzu Twos?!

    So bizarre that you both would have such loud little tzu's----shih tzu are, and should be, generally quiet, stoic dogs----and yes, very independent.  They usually only use their voice for very a good reason.     I am with spiritdogs on this  ---Any kind of attention you give to them while they are exhibiting this behavior is reinforcing it.  Your best option is to ignore the behavior, and as Anne indicated, definitely look into clicker training.

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  • 09-18-2007 4:15 PM In reply to tzu_mom

    • tzumommy
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    Re: Terrible Tzu Twos?!

    Oh, don't misunderstand!  BOTH of my boys ARE "GENERALLY" quiet, stoic dogs.Angel  I did mention in my original post that they also do not normally bark without good reason.  This is a temper tantrum that one of my 2 boys has found to work for him  - due to our lack of consistency.

    Both dogs have been clicker trained since they were 10 weeks old; both dogs have been through basic and intermediate obedience classes.  This is a phase; a phase that I am not doing a very good job of squelching!! LOL! 

    My instincts told me to ignore it, and we did for the first 3 weeks (in hind sight we really didn't though, because DH would shut the door) but DH got to me with his little commentsDevil and I started 2nd guessing my methods.Hmm

    I think I was on the right track, but I made 2 mistakes 1)I reinforced it because I let my tiredness and emotions win over my reasoning 2) I wasn't rewarding the wanted behavior (quiet) because I didn't have the sense to think of taking a clicker to bed with me so that I could mark it properly!! Embarrassed

    He didn't do it last night, but I will be sleeping with my clicker and will post back after some time has passed with this method!
    Smile
     

    Angie
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  • 09-18-2007 4:22 PM In reply to tzumommy

    • tzu_mom
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    Re: Terrible Tzu Twos?!

     

    tzumommy:

    but I will be sleeping with my clicker and will post back after some time has passed with this method!
    Smile
     

     

    I love it! 

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