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Pack dynamics (dominance/guardiness) and adding a second dog

Last post 09-24-2007 5:58 PM by Vinia. 9 replies.
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  • 09-12-2007 2:03 AM

    • Vinia
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    Pack dynamics (dominance/guardiness) and adding a second dog

     

    I’ve been considering the possibility of introducing a second dog into the “pack”, but have had some (minor) problems with Pocket- mostly guardiness, that I would really like some extra opinions on. 

    Here's a rundown: 

     My sister’s dog used to live with us- for about 7 months- a male staffy/boxer who was about 9 months younger, and quite submissive. They generally got along quite well, but Pocket used to guard toys, food and space from him- inconsistently. Sometimes she’d be more than happy to share the couch, a toy, or let him chew on a bone near her, but other times if he even looked the wrong way, or stepped into the room she’d bark and snap at him (no growls).
    A few times she drew blood (though only minor scratches) in these altercations, but it generally was just a lot of noise.  In the end I managed to control the guarding by redirecting Pocket when I saw her stiffen and start “the glare”, it got to the point where there were only minor squabbles (mostly noise) occurring every second month or so- mostly my fault (previously there were fights once or twice a month.
    We also had similar problems lately when my SO took Pocket away for a few days, where there’s a 12wk British bulldog pup- Pocket snapped at her twice, drawing blood once, over small things like Bella walking past her bed, or by the coffee table where people were eating (Pocket was next to it). I know that some of her intolerance may be due to the stress of being away from home (and me), and in a new environment, but it seems like an unreasonable amount of "discipline" for such a young pup.

     
    Should I be concerned about this behaviour and guardiness? Is it normal? I suspect that it may be due to Pocket’s insecurities and that she doesn’t particularly fit into the more dominant role, being so submissive otherwise.

    What can I do to fix this behaviour, and make her more confident?

    Also, will this change as she matures? Will she become calmer and more tolerant with age?

    What sort of dog should I be looking for as a second dog? At the moment, it seems that an older male dog, that’s at least the same size, and more dominant but quite easy-going would be the best idea- is this right?

     Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions would be greatly appreciated! :D

     
    ETA : perhaps I've painted a bleaker picture than it really is- just wanted to point out that most of the time, Pocket got along really well with Levi (my sister's dog), and Bella-  it's just the intermittent scuffles that I'm not sure if I should be worried about

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  • 09-12-2007 2:04 AM In reply to Vinia

    • Vinia
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    Re: Pack dynamics (dominance/guardiness) and adding a second dog

     Here's some more background info:

    Pocket’s a greyhound/ridgeback/lab/staffy cross- she’s just coming up to 20 months. She was the runt of the litter, and isn’t dominant at all with humans- she doesn’t jump up (unless invited), mouth or bite, and has no issue with people taking food/toys from her. She is allowed on the couch and bed, but will only come up if a) there is no-one on it or b) she's asked.

    She is well socialised with other dogs and goes to the dog park (almost) every day. She generally submits to larger, older dogs, but tends to play a bit rough or bully/tease smaller, more submissive dogs (e.g.younger pups, smaller dogs), generally only the ones that react by yelping and running- the ones that ignore her, or tell her off she’ll leave alone for a while. Also, usually a short time-out given by me will stop any further harassment. 
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  • 09-12-2007 8:08 PM In reply to Vinia

    Re: Pack dynamics (dominance/guardiness) and adding a second dog

     My husky has the same issue. She's very resource protective when it comes to other dogs. I can't leave toys, bones, and most of all food laying around when other dogs come to visit or if we go visit other dogs.

     
    I recently added a 2nd dog - male, aussie puppy. When looking for the puppy I told the breeder that I needed a male dog that was not dominant yet not too submissive. I needed a confident - middle of the pack puppy that could stand up for himself if he had to but didn't look for trouble. As soon as the pups were old enough to get visitors I started going to see them to watch their personalities emerge. I took toys and blankets with my husky's scent over with me when I would visit the puppies, then I would let the puppy I picked out rub all over them and then I'd take them home and leave them on my husky's bed so that she would get used to the smell. 

     At first it was a bit challenging. I had to carefully manage all resources and manage both of their behaviors.  It was difficult since puppies want to chew on everything. I couldn't just leave toys or bones laying around. However, I tried many different things and eventually got the 2 dogs to co-exist.  Now, the puppy is almost 9 months old and I can leave toys and bones laying around the house. They don't fight over them at all. They're also pretty good buddies. They play and Dakota (the husky) is very protective of Neiko (the pup) when we are out and about town. If any dog picks on Neiko, Dakota jumps in to break it up. I still feed them in different rooms though. That will never get resolved, but that's ok. It's manageable.

     

    So, I think that it is doable. It just takes a lot of work.
     

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  • 09-12-2007 8:46 PM In reply to Jewlieee

    • stardog85
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    Re: Pack dynamics (dominance/guardiness) and adding a second dog

    I have to agree that it's not insurmountable, but it can require some creative management. I foster dogs and Maggie is guardy about me and other resources when it comes to other dogs, yet we've had no blood drawn since I started fostering. Does Pocket stop aggressing on her own or do you have to intervene? Maggie self regulates and I rarely have to intervene in her corrections - adding a second dog would be much less of a problem if Pocket stops the aggression on her own.

    Erin, the Amazing Maggie Mae, and Super Puppy Ziva


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  • 09-12-2007 9:13 PM In reply to stardog85

    • Vinia
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    Re: Pack dynamics (dominance/guardiness) and adding a second dog

    Erin, can you tell me more aboutyour experiences with Maggie and the fosters? I've started volunteering at the local shel\ter and have been thinking about fostering as well- but I'm not sure how Pocket would cope with lots strange dogs coming into and leaving our house.

    Pocket's "attacks" generally just consist of a bark and a nip. It's hard to tell though whether she would stop aggressing on her own though since most of the time I'd stop the fights as soon as they started with a loud "HEY!". Also, with Levi things would often escalate because he'd fight back. 

    Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill here? Pocket doesn't resource-guard constantly, and I was generally able to leave bones and toys lying around the house without any problems, and they would happily chew bones 5 metres or so apart in the garden. Pocket generally seemed to be a bit more reactive/guardy when 1) energy and excitement levels were high, although she also would guard during quiet times... Hmmm..

     So what sort of dog should I be looking for? Very dominant or very submissive or somewhere middle of the road? Would Pocket automatically start out as alpha since she'd have been in the house first? 

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  • 09-13-2007 5:01 AM In reply to Vinia

    • corvus
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    Re: Pack dynamics (dominance/guardiness) and adding a second dog

     Pocket reminds me of Penny. Penny is a submissive girl, too, but in the past she's been a bit on the snappy side with other animals. She's especially guardy of me when she hasn't seen me in a while. It's pretty much always been the case. I tend to just ignore her when she gets growly and I'll walk away if she starts getting particularly intense. She's snapped at one of the cats in the past, and she regularly snaps at Kit when he gets too close to her. I might shout "Hey" like you, but I don't think it makes a shred of difference to her behaviour.

    I don't think it's a big problem, but if I were you, I'd be pretty mindful of just who you bring home to share with Pocket. Penny gets on well with most dogs, and never ever snaps at Pyry, but Jill gets her irritated real fast and she's all snarly about it. Both dogs are above her in the social order, so that's got little to do with it. For Penny, I'm looking for a quiet, laid-back dog that will notice when she grumbles. I think what she hates about Jill is that Jill is an idiot and is always bumping into her and stepping on her and smacking her in the face with her tail. Penny especially hates it when Jill turns up with her rope toy when Penny is trying to get some cuddles. Penny's like "Go away, Jill, you're ruining it!". I think Penny feels like she's going to get jostled by Jill just when she doesn't want to be jostled.

    So, if I were you I'd try to work out what gets Pocket cross and then select a dog that doesn't have those traits. Smile 

    Melissa's family: Penny - corgi, Kit - wild hare, Bonnie - rabbit, Kivi Tarro - Finnish Lapphund

    "She's always talking about her hare."
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  • 09-13-2007 10:54 AM In reply to corvus

    Re: Pack dynamics (dominance/guardiness) and adding a second dog

    from your dog park descriptions, I'd say Pocket is a potential "beta bully"-- likes to bully dogs if she can get away with it, but has no natural "leadership" skills. Can you do little trial runs with potential housemate dogs, and see if you find one that will naturally assume a dominant position and get along well with Pocket?  Note that dominant dogs are rarely aggressive in any way. So you'd look for a dog that interacted with Pocket in way that no aggressive behavior was seen at all, no Pocket-bullying, no bullying of Pocket by the other dog.

    As to resource guarding, many multiple dog households routinely feed the dogs in crates or separate rooms, keep the dogs separated for bone chewing, and keep the toys and bones put away instead of littering the household.

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  • 09-13-2007 6:09 PM In reply to mudpuppy

    • Vinia
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    Re: Pack dynamics (dominance/guardiness) and adding a second dog

    Jill sounds a little like Levi was. He was rather oblivious and sort of "doggy autistic"- not very good at picking up on social cues. That probably didnt help matters much, lol!

    A "beta bully" is probably a very good description of Pocket, actually. I think she has getting better in terms of her interactions with other smaller dogs, so I'm kind of hoping that as she gets a bit older she'll lose more of the adolescent obnoxiousness.

    Trial-runs with potential housemates are a good idea- perhaps doing some short-term fostering might be a good way to find the right one (and help other shelter dogs).

    It's a lot clearer to me now that resource-guarding can generally be solved by management, so that's probably less of a problem than I first imagined.

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  • 09-23-2007 12:34 AM In reply to Vinia

    • stardog85
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    Re: Pack dynamics (dominance/guardiness) and adding a second dog

    Sorry it took me a while to get back to you....internet was down at my apartment.

    With Maggie and fosters I've found slow intros, clear rules, and lots of training and exercise time results in the happiest dogs.  Slow intros actually are quite fast now, but my first few fosters took about 10 days to integrate into the household; my most recent foster took all of an hour.Big Smile

    Maggie is anxious around new dogs which is what triggers aggression - I use an herbal supplement when we go to big dog events or dog parks and she is much less reactive.  Given this anxiety, dogs meet Maggie at our home rather than neutral turf, like most dogs should do better with.  When I lived in ahouse with a yard, fosters were allowed to live parallel lives for about 2 days before Maggie saw them - they were in the yard when she was inside and vice versa.  Eventually, Maggie would be allowed to see the foster thru the baby gate, then while crated next to the foster and eating dinner, then on a parallel walk, and eventually loose in the yard and house.  Maggie has never had a major problem with a foster using this method - she woudl correct them as needed, but was never bullying or aggressive with them; new dogs met off the property w/o parallel walking generally see lots of Maggie's teeth, so the difference is stark. 

     Maggie is full of contradictions overall - she has the ability to be a fair leader, happy playmate, and good role model for other dogs, but she can also be a very insecure dog in interactions with fellow canines and show a lot of the "beta bully" behavior described in another post.

    One thing I do when looking at fosters is select the ones I gravitate toward - oddly enough my choices often mirror Maggie's.  Herding breeds are my favorites and they play/communicate like Maggie so they fit in well.   The one non-herding dog I fostered failed horribly: stress diarrhea was one result and Maggie was much more of a bully with him; he also didn't heed any of her subtle (and even the not so subtle) cues to back off and he was just way more over the top about interactions than Maggie prefers.

    Sasha, the current foster who broke the record for good intros and may be staying, is a herding mix, 6mo, female, intact (for now), and good at flipping between "dominant" and "submisive/appeasing/shy" with other dogs.  She and Maggie play very roughly and share things equally - sometimes Maggie steals from Sasha and vice versa.  Maggie does guard high value toys, but not me or water like she has done with dogs in the past.

    I would highly recommend fostering first so you can "try out" different types and personalities of dogs as there is no cut and dried way of picking a housemate for a guardy dog. Smile  Maggie has not read the manual and I doubt she's the only one. Wink

    I have noticed that Maggie has a pattern in behavior with fosters, length of each stage depends on the individual dog.  It is as follows:

    1: Initial wariness, hypervigilance - this is the stage I try to smooth out with the slow intros as if I push too fast here, she's more likely to "correct" a dog more harshly for minor issues.

    2: Cautious optimism - this occurs once the dogs are going on parallel walks or first in the yard.  generally marked by hesitant play behavior, but guarding is still quite possible

    3: Playful, but still tense - marked by lots of over the top play, rough play that has an edge of sorts, less guarding possibilities

    4: Order sorting - generally seen after a few weeks, Maggie often seems a bit standoffish and depressed

    5: Resolution - after at least a month of foster dog's presence, Maggie is suddenly back to her normal self and all is well. 


    Erin, the Amazing Maggie Mae, and Super Puppy Ziva


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  • 09-24-2007 5:58 PM In reply to stardog85

    • Vinia
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    Re: Pack dynamics (dominance/guardiness) and adding a second dog

    Thanks so much for sharing your process for introducing your fosters to Maggie! It was very informative and gives me hope that Pocket will be able to handle sharing her house with any future foster dogs I may haveSmile. I know that she's capable of living harmoniously with other dogs- it's just the odd time where she's a bit unreasonable lol.

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