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mechanism of a wolf fight

Last post 07-25-2007 1:16 AM by corvus. 23 replies.
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  • 07-23-2007 8:53 AM

    mechanism of a wolf fight

    lonecoyote:
    janet_rose:
    An alpha wolf that forces a non-submissive challenger onto its back is very, very close to killing that animal. 

    with all due respect janet, this is not true. an alpha wolf will keep the others in their place. if another pack member rises up to the challenge, it if generally a quick bout and it's over. rarely, do fights to the death occur. this is true with grizzly bears, walruses, and mountain goats. the weaker male (i say male because that is usually what they are) will quickly figure out to remove the challenge &/or submit and then it is done and over. in nature, it simply takes too much energy to fight to the death - but it will happen on rare occasion. once someone submits, the winner does not continue to go on and kill his opponent, pinning down is sufficient and the animals know that.

    I agree that most wolf fights end with one wolf submitting and with both wolves living, but let's discuss the mechanism of a wolf fight (NOT the human "alpha roll").
     
    The only way I know of for a wolf to pin an opponent is to grab the opponent by the neck and pin him on his back (assuming males for convenience).  In the scuffle are you sure that a human can tell the difference between
    (1)  a wolf that submits and allows himself to be pinned in submission and
    (2)  a wolf that is forcefully pinned and then submits?
     
    In case #1 the pin is symbolic and the dominant wolf is simply displaying his dominance with the pin.  The submissive wolf realized he was losing, smelled of fear, and gave up.
     
    In case #2 the pin is the moment that the fight is lost.  At that instant the dominant wolf must decide to kill his opponent or to allow his opponent time to submit. 
     
    In a scuffle there will be instances when case #1 will be obvious, but since the smell of fear and subtle canine body language is involved, humans can easily mistake case #1 for case #2.
     
    Whether the smell of fear occurs before or after the pin could certainly be a big factor in whether the winning wolf allows his opponent to live.  Are there really any studies that show how often the opponent is allowed to live in case #2?  Remember that the fight had to have been close or the losing wolf would have submitted before the pin.
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  • 07-23-2007 11:45 AM In reply to janet_rose

    • lostcoyote
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    RE: mechanism of a wolf fight

    Are there really any studies that show how often the opponent is allowed to live in case #2?




    will need to look around by researching the internet to determine that.

    i did read something yesterday while browsing for other stuff that wolf-to-wolf killing are relatively rare (relative is a relative word here) but they do occur. Not so much WITHIN an existing wolf pack structure but between different wolf packs and it's usually over territorial issues. also, killing will occur within a pack to remove injured wolves and/or pups - this is natures way of keeping the pack filled with only the strongest because overall strength (equates to stability) is of paramount importance to the survival of the pack.

    thanks for your interest, i'll see what sort of info i can find and append it to this post...


    post edit:

    [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf#Body_language]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf#Body_language[/link]

    reference [33]
    [linkhttp://www.isleroyalewolf.org/pe_wolf_kill.htm]http://www.isleroyalewolf.org/pe_wolf_kill.htm[/link]


    i'm sure there's more, you can use google to find stuff by using keywordds "wolf killings" etc 
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  • 07-23-2007 12:49 PM In reply to janet_rose

    RE: mechanism of a wolf fight

    Has anyone ever seen a dog fight that ended with one dog in the classic exposed belly posture? I haven't.  Sometimes see one dog knocked down during a fight, but pinned on their side, not their back.
    You sometimes see the exposed belly posture assumed by one dog when two dogs meet. Not after a fight.
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  • 07-23-2007 1:36 PM In reply to janet_rose

    RE: mechanism of a wolf fight

    ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

    Has anyone ever seen a dog fight that ended with one dog in the classic exposed belly posture? I haven't.  Sometimes see one dog knocked down during a fight, but pinned on their side, not their back.
    You sometimes see the exposed belly posture assumed by one dog when two dogs meet. Not after a fight.


    Yeap, when a human does it to a dog they also are pinned on their side, not on their back = humans do it just like wolves do
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  • 07-23-2007 2:31 PM In reply to janet_rose

    • Dog_ma
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    RE: mechanism of a wolf fight

    Wolf on wolf killing is apparently not always rare: [linkhttp://www.jhguide.com/article.php?art_id=1551]http://www.jhguide.com/article.php?art_id=1551[/link]

    The things about wolf *packs* is that they are cooperative.  Wolves need each other.  A pack leader who needed to keep other wolves in check through constant threat of physical violence would be in a very weak position as a leader, and have to spend a lot of time & energy maintaining his power.  I think many of the discussions on alpha rolls and pins are distorted by a top-down frame of mind, and miss out on the cooperative nature of wolves. 

    Wolf packs are usually made up of genetically related members.  They're family.  They raise pups TOGETHER.  They hunt and eat TOGETHER.  The need to force other family members into submission isn't much of a factor. 

    "Most research on the social dynamics of wolf packs, however, has been conducted on wolves in captivity. These captive packs were usually composed of an assortment of wolves from various sources placed together and allowed to breed at will (Schenkel 1947; Rabb et al. 1967; Zimen 1975, 1982). This approach apparently reflected the view that in the wild, "pack formation starts with the beginning of winter" (Schenkel 1947), implying some sort of annual assembling of independent wolves. (Schenkel did consider the possibility that the pack was a family, as Murie (1944) had already reported, but only in a footnote.)
    In captive packs, the unacquainted wolves formed dominance hierarchies featuring alpha, beta, omega animals, etc. With such assemblages, these dominance labels were probably appropriate, for most species thrown together in captivity would usually so arrange themselves.
    In nature, however, the wolf pack is not such an assemblage. Rather, it is usually a family (Murie 1944; Young and Goldman 1944; Mech 1970, 1988; Clark 1971; Haber 1977) including a breeding pair and their offspring of the previous 1-3 years, or sometimes two or three such families (Murie 1944; Haber 1977; Mech et al. 1998)."
    http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/mammals/alstat/intro.htm

    "
    Labeling a high-ranking wolf alpha emphasizes its rank in a dominance hierarchy. However, in natural wolf packs, the alpha male or female are merely the breeding animals, the parents of the pack, and dominance contests with other wolves are rare, if they exist at all. During my 13 summers observing the Ellesmere Island pack, I saw none."
    [linkhttp://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/mammals/alstat/alpst.htm]http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/mammals/alstat/alpst.htm[/link]

    "The only consistent demonstration of rank in natural packs is the animals' postures during social interaction. Dominant wolves assume the classic canid standing posture with tail up at least horizontally, and subordinate or submissive individuals lower themselves and "cringe" (Darwin 1877). In fact, submission itself may be as important as dominance in terms of promoting friendly relations or reducing social distance."

    [linkhttp://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/mammals/alstat/domsub.htm]http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/mammals/alstat/domsub.htm[/link]




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  • 07-23-2007 3:01 PM In reply to janet_rose

    • Stacita
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    RE: mechanism of a wolf fight

    There was the one show about the wolves in Yellowstone where the high ranking female was a bully and constantly harassed her sister. The high ranking female was found brutally savaged and died. The sister became the breeding female of the pack. [&o]
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  • 07-23-2007 6:26 PM In reply to janet_rose

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    RE: mechanism of a wolf fight

    And I saw another documentary where two rogue wolves where in a pack and one got in a fight with the alpha, with the alpha winning. The loser did not die in the fight. It died early the next morning from injuries sustained in the fight. So, the idea that wolves don't die from fights in the pack may be a matter of timing in observation.
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  • 07-23-2007 6:32 PM In reply to janet_rose

    • Ixas_girl
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    RE: mechanism of a wolf fight

    What are rogue wolves?

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  • 07-23-2007 7:00 PM In reply to janet_rose

    • corvus
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    RE: mechanism of a wolf fight

    I have seen dogs 'pin' other dogs during a fight by lying on top of them. I've seen it most often between two dogs of different sizes. The larger one might get the smaller one underneath it and then simply lie on top of it. The smaller one is effectively pinned without the use of jaws and once the smaller dog realises it can't get the upperhand from where it is, it gives up and the fight is over with the dog on top the 'victor'. I've seen similar things happen with dogs of the same size, only the pin happens with, say, one front leg and the chest on top of the other dog so that the dog on top is using its weight to push the dog underneath down. I see this as a way for dogs to end a fight without injury, and in well-socialised dogs, it seems to be the preferred way to point out to a smaller challenger that it's very small and weak and would do better forgetting the whole thing.
     
    Considering this only happens when dogs have come to blows, so to speak, I don't think it's something people should be imitating. One would hope that people are not so useless in their dog's eyes that it has come down to a physical battle. Seeing as dogs have the capacity to inflict some nasty damage on humans, I would do anything to not be in a situation where such a 'pin' would be applicable.
     
    As for wolves, and all social animals for that matter, I think people tend to build a social hierarchy in their heads because it's the best way to explain what we see, which is two animals that both want the same thing fighting over it and one getting it. Or patterns in submissive and dominant gestures. I don't think it is ever so simple as a ladder hierarchy in which this one is always submissive to this one who is always submissive to this one and so on. I think every time two animals want the same thing, you start almost from scratch with who wants it more. As such, an animal with a lower social ranking does not necessarily always lose to an animal of higher social ranking. My feeling is that whether a fight becomes deadly or not in wolves is one of those rare cases that history counts for something. I've seen plenty of dog fights between two females that are the result of months of tiny, almost insignificant conflicts and a whole lot of simmering. Someone finally snaps and it can get quite ugly, whereas a fight between two animals that have just met seems more likely to me to be over and done with quickly with little to no bloodshed.
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  • 07-23-2007 7:02 PM In reply to janet_rose

    • ron2
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    RE: mechanism of a wolf fight

    rogue - not originally part of the pack.
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  • 07-23-2007 7:29 PM In reply to janet_rose

    • Stacita
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    RE: mechanism of a wolf fight

    My feeling is that whether a fight becomes deadly or not in wolves is one of those rare cases that history counts for something. I've seen plenty of dog fights between two females that are the result of months of tiny, almost insignificant conflicts and a whole lot of simmering.

     
    You may  well be right about that. It seems like it is either over and done with or increases in intensity with time, but the level of hostility doesn't stay static.
     
    BTW: It is VERY good to see you back here. I've missed hearing about Penny & the hares as well as hearing your perspective on things.
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  • 07-24-2007 1:09 AM In reply to janet_rose

    RE: mechanism of a wolf fight

    lonecoyote:
    janet_rose:
    An alpha wolf that forces a non-submissive challenger onto its back is very, very close to killing that animal. 

    with all due respect janet, this is not true.

    The links and posts so far on this thread have discussed 
    (1)  ritualistic pinning of a subordinate pack member after that pack member has given submissive signals,
    (2)  attacks by one pack on another pack which result in deaths, and
    (3)  deadly attacks on rogue wolves that venture into a pack's territory.
    None of those issues addresses the original statement on this thread that was challenged by lonecoyote.
     
    I have yet to see anything about an alpha wolf pinning a pack subordinate (or vice versa) before submissive signals are given (as seen from a human vantage point anyway).  I still contend that pinning prior to submission (especially if by the neck) brings the subordinate very close to death. 
     
    The alpha is likely to allow a young, foolish wolf to submit after this type of pin, but an adult challenger of approximately equal ability might not fair as well.  Studies of this would be difficult since this type of fight ending is not the norm.
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  • 07-24-2007 1:16 AM In reply to janet_rose

    • Dog_ma
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    RE: mechanism of a wolf fight

    Dogma: Sorry, I was making a joke while agreeing with janet. 

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  • 07-24-2007 4:58 AM In reply to janet_rose

    RE: mechanism of a wolf fight

    ORIGINAL: espencer

    ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

    Has anyone ever seen a dog fight that ended with one dog in the classic exposed belly posture? I haven't.  Sometimes see one dog knocked down during a fight, but pinned on their side, not their back.
    You sometimes see the exposed belly posture assumed by one dog when two dogs meet. Not after a fight.


    Yeap, when a human does it to a dog they also are pinned on their side, not on their back = humans do it just like wolves do

     
    Not always.  CM has done it to a dog on its back.  I think it was Emily the pitbull.  I remember asking in a different thread why he changed the technique but it appeared nobody knew the answer.  I think I posted in response to you posting a videolink and I couldn't see or hear any explanation on the link, but it may have been present on that show.
     
    In any case, the OP specified that this thread is about wolf-wolf interactions, not human-dog, so if anyone has any further thoughts on this feel free to PM me or start a thread as I don't want to hi jack this one.  Thanks.
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  • 07-24-2007 9:31 AM In reply to janet_rose

    RE: mechanism of a wolf fight

    sorry, I don't have wolves around to watch, but suspect their behavior isn't much different than dog behavior. My alpha bitch has never been in a fight her entire life, and has never felt the need to "pin" a dog, not to mention she is by far the smallest dog in the pack and couldn't under any circumstances manage such a feat. Usually you see these squabbles ending in "pins" at the dog park between dogs who don't know each other very well and aren't even in the same "pack". In a well-established pack the alphas and omegas don't fight with anyone; the betas may occasionally squabble amongst themselves or pick on the omegas. Puppies raised into the pack grow up into their position and usually no fights at all occur. Some puppies hit adulthood and decide to see if they can "elevate" their status and then there might be some squabbling. So people who go around "biting" (with hand), scruffing, pinning or alpha-rolling their dog are loudly announcing that they are of beta-wanting to be-alpha status, or possibly just bullies.
     
    The dog-killing-dog stories you hear about are most often large dogs killing small dogs by grab-the-neck-and-shake (predator behavior) or bitch on bitch fights that got out of hand. Interesting that the story above about a wolf being killed sounds an awful lot like a bitch-bitch fight that got out of hand. Nothing to do with normal pack heirarchies. And I doubt "pinning" occurs in either scenario.
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