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Help!

Last post 07-24-2007 9:04 PM by Liesje. 11 replies.
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  • 07-24-2007 1:16 PM

    Help!

    At first we thought that moving had made all the difference in Jester.  He was quiet, well behaved and wasn't marking.  We figured being the "only dog" had really made a difference. 
     
    Well...apparantly now Jester realizes this is his new home.  He's started marking again.  In addition, he is still having major problems with my fiance.  He's terrified of him.  It's not unique to him, Jester hates all young men.  So that makes my fiance hate the dog, which always makes dealing with these issues worst.  Now for the last couple of days when my fiance comes home during lunch to let the dog out, he says that the second he walks in the building he can hear the dog barking.  I'm suprised the neighbors haven't complained yet. 
     
    I don't know what to do, we've tried all types of training, talked to a behaviorist, etc.  I'm on the verge of rehoming the dog because I think he'd do a lot better living with an elderly person who was home all day.  But I don't really want to do that.  I don't want to ditch my dog.  [:(]
    ~Erin

    "Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog;
    but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."
    --Douglas Mallock

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  • 07-24-2007 1:33 PM In reply to papillon64

    RE: Help!

    Well I think your fiance needs to change his attitude toward Jester, dogs know when someone dislikes them.That could create the behavior problems.I would start having your fiance do fun things with Jester,playing with him,feeding him etc.Are both of you practicing NILIF?  [linkhttp://k9deb.com/nilif.htm]http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm[/link]
    Honestly I don'tthink anything will change unless your fiance changes his attitude towards the dog.he doesn't have to love Jester just not hate him.I hope this helps![:)]
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  • 07-24-2007 1:37 PM In reply to papillon64

    • Pwca
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 09-10-2006
    • Dallas, Texas
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    RE: Help!

    1. Put Jester in a box.

    2. Mail Jester to Texas. I'll PM you my address.

    Problems olved? :P

    Okay, seriously. I'd get rid of the fiance. Anyone who is a jerk to an animal who is scared of them just makes me nuts. Secondly, I'd set up a recorder and see when jester actually barks- he may hear your fiance coming.
    Thirdly, have you tried belly bands for the marking?
    Fourthly, what about having your fiance take Jester through an obedience or agility class- a really nice positive one- so that he could learn to listen to him, and associate him with fun things. If your fiance wouldn't do that, what about doing two weeks where he did all the Jester interactions- all the potty walks, all the play, all the feeding, all dispensing of treats, all petting, everything?
    Adopt one today! Photobucket
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  • 07-24-2007 2:13 PM In reply to papillon64

    • Liesje
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 03-02-2007
    • Grand Rapids, Michigan
    • Posts 6,785
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    RE: Help!

    I think your fiance's attitude has to change.  How does he expect the dog to come around?  HE has to change before the dog will change.  Dogs take leadership from people.

    On Friday we are adopting a dog that has been rehomed twice because she remains afraid of men.  She's a great dog, but is very fearful of men.  She had a bad experience and now she will duck and dart around nervously in the presence of men, doesn't want to go within 15 feet of them.  We've known this for several months and have spent the last three and a half months preparing my husband for how to approach the dog.  He has worked on his attitude, on his state of mind when approaching fearful dogs, being conscious of his body movements, etc.  On Saturday we met the dog for the first time.  Within minutes, she was approaching DH on her own (he was crouched down, not hovering over her, and she was initiating contact).  She took his treats, licked him, and after a while, let him sratch her head.  Here is a video of a dog that is terrified of men, just 15 minutes after meeting my husband (6'4", 225lbs):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQwSkEZzzdc

    There's still a lot of work to do, but if it were not for his attitude and his consciousness of how his emotions project to the dog, this meeting would not have gone so well.

    My Blog - http://24ft.dutchbingo.net
    My Site - http://liesrosema.com
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  • 07-24-2007 2:15 PM In reply to papillon64

    RE: Help!

    First off, I'd like to apologize if I misrepresented my fiance.  But I do not like him being verbally attacked.

    It's not just my fiance, it's young men in general.  My fiance is just the one who lives with him.  Jester acts the same way towards all men, regardless.  My fiance has never done anything to hurt him.  And to be fair, he tries.  He gets down with the dog and talks nice to him and gives him treats.  He's been feeding him (as per a recommendation) and taking him out and playing with him.  Jester will be fine with him right after he does these things, but then it's like the next time my fiance gets up and moves, Jester is reactive again.  Also, Jester did these things BEFORE I even met my fiance.

    I've tried belly bands, but they didn't seem to stop him from marking.  I mean, granted, there wasn't any pee on the shower curtain, but we had to give the dog a bath several times a day and it was just a mess.  I knew he'd wet on them, but I figured the discomfort of being wet whould slowly discourage him.

    Maybe I will try the training class.  I went through one with the dog, but my fiance hasn't.  That might be good for both of them.
     
    EDITED:  I always mess up new and knew.[:)]
    ~Erin

    "Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog;
    but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."
    --Douglas Mallock

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  • 07-24-2007 2:34 PM In reply to papillon64

    RE: Help!

    ORIGINAL: Cassiewith2dogs
    .Are both of you practicing NILIF?  [linkhttp://k9deb.com/nilif.htm]http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm[/link]


    No we aren't, but that looks like a really good idea!  I'm going to print that article so we can look over it tonight.  Jester is definitately in charge of initiation.  The NILIF concept makes sense to me. 
     
    EDITED to add:  Liesje, do you have any articles/book names that you used to help prepare your husband how to interact with a fearful dog?  If so, can you please send them to me?  Thanks!  [:D]
    ~Erin

    "Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog;
    but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."
    --Douglas Mallock

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  • 07-24-2007 4:23 PM In reply to papillon64

    RE: Help!

    papillon64 :
    Jester acts the same way towards all men, regardless. My fiance has never done anything to hurt him. And to be fair, he tries. 

    This is going to sound really silly, but bear with me.  Ask your fiance to spend an evening crawling wherever he wants to go.  If this solves the problem, the issue is probably his height and/or a tendancy to lean over your dog.
     
    That issue produces submissive urination in some dogs, so these sites may have some ideas you can use:
    http://terrier.com/advice/submissive.php3
    http://la-spca.org/education/dogs/submissive_ur.htm

    http://www.hilltopanimalhospital.com/submissive%20urination.htm
    http://www.usask.ca/wcvm/herdmed/applied-ethology/behaviourproblems/suburine.html
     
     
    Editted to correct spelling.
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  • 07-24-2007 4:32 PM In reply to papillon64

    RE: Help!

    ORIGINAL: janet_rose

    This is going to sounds really silly, but bear with me.  Ask your fiance to spend an evening crawling wherever he wants to go.  If this solves the problem, the issue is probably his height and/or a tendancy to lean over your dog.
     

     
    lol I'll tell him that.  I don't think he'll mind.  You're probably right, I'm sure it's some posture thing he's doing unconsiously that is setting Jester off.  Would that make sense if it was most young men though?  Maybe it's because most young men (or at the least the ones Jester and I know) are kind of boisterous, and they're all certainly taller than me.  I'm really short, so height may be the issue. 
    ~Erin

    "Thorns may hurt you, men desert you, sunlight turn to fog;
    but you're never friendless ever, if you have a dog."
    --Douglas Mallock

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  • 07-24-2007 4:33 PM In reply to papillon64

    RE: Help!

    Brown, Ali, Scaredy Dog! Understanding and Rehabilitating Your Reactive Dog, 5/2004
    http://tinyurl.com/437q3 

    Brown, Ali
    , Scaredy Dog! Seminar DVD, 2005, DVD
    http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB855

    McConnell, Patricia,
    The Cautious Canine: Helping Your Dog Overcome Its Fears, 6/1998
    http://tinyurl.com/6jvub


    Parsons, Emma
    , Click to Calm - Healing the Aggressive Dog, 12/2004
    http://tinyurl.com/248pnm

    (The same principles apply to fearful dogs.) 
     
    Wood, Deborah, Help for Your Shy Dog: Turning Your Terrified Dog into a Terrific Pet, 6/1999
    http://tinyurl.com/ywccqy

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  • 07-24-2007 4:57 PM In reply to papillon64

    • JoAnnDe
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    • Joined on 01-16-2007
    • Clearwater, FL
    • Posts 1,203
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    RE: Help!

    My first dog (Michelle, you can read about her in the Rainbow Bridge section) was awfully fearful when we first adopted her.   She was more afraid of men and would cower near my husband.  She would submissively urinate with him more than me (but even with me for some time).
    The "crawling all night" thing might actually work - for WEEKS my husband approached Michelle on hands and knees.  He would stay on his hands and knees for about 5 minutes every time he greeted her.   After awhile (sorry, I can't really remember how long) she stopped urinating and eventually stopped cowering.   They became best buds.
    Hopefully the NILIF and 'crawling' will work ... as you can see from my own story there is hope !
    People ask me if I think dogs go to heaven. I respond: Of course they do ! Heaven could only BE heaven if dogs are there
    Prancer: June(ish) 2006 - 13# poodle mix - rescue
    Michelle: 1994 - 2007. English Cocker Spaniel - shelter. RIP sweetheart - I'll see you again someday
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  • 07-24-2007 6:30 PM In reply to papillon64

    RE: Help!

    Thank you for this thread.  I have the exact problem with Trucker & DH.  He's not a marker but boy oh boy is he scared of DH.  He listens to me "no bark" but he's so scared of DH that he just can't help himself.  Please do not bash my DH for something you know nothing of.  He just happens to be big, tall & has a full beard.  He looks intimidating but is a big sweetheart.
     
    Janet_Rose, thanks for reminding me of Ali Brown.  I have no clue why I didn't think of her.  She's local to me & I went to her with Grady.  All I can say is WOW!  She's great.  I'm going to get Scardy Dog for DH to read.  He honestly has no clue how to be less intimidating to poor Trucker & I'm doing a lousy job of trying to communicate how he should act.  Since Trucker is a foster I HAVE to get this worked out before he finds a new home.
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  • 07-24-2007 9:04 PM In reply to papillon64

    • Liesje
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 03-02-2007
    • Grand Rapids, Michigan
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    RE: Help!

    EDITED to add: Liesje, do you have any articles/book names that you used to help prepare your husband how to interact with a fearful dog? If so, can you please send them to me? Thanks!


    I'm not a fan of Cesar Millan's methods nor do I condone practicing something you just watch off TV, BUT most of what he actually did with Chopper came from the CM episode with the large white dog that was afraid of men.  I had DH watch this episode.  Basically, CM enters the home and totally ignores the dog, doesn't even look at it once.  He sits down on the couch and starts conversing with the owner.  You can see the dog in the background look nervous for a minute, but then get curious.  As they talk, the dog circles CM and starts to move in closer to sniff.  CM is holding a treat.  He allows the dog to move itself in close enough and take the treat.  After only a few minutes of talking, the terrified dog had her head in his lap!

    Then they went outside, and of course dogs are contextual so the dog got all skittish of everything outside, not just men.  CM had them practice walking along at a steady pace and not allowing the dog to stop and get scared.  The walked past several people and I think one of the girl's friends came out and they practiced walking past this man.

    After watching this episode, I explained to DH several times that he needs to ignore the skittish dog.  DH is very boisterous and when he arrives to his parents home, he will get his dog all excited.  I made it very clear that he cannot do this to Chopper.  It's hard for him to ignore a dog, not look at it, and not reach to it, but that's what had to be done.

    Also, we volunteer at a shelter and we did practice with hand-shy dogs that had been beaten.  Going on walks with these dogs, he became more aware of how the changes in the tone and volume of his voice and any quick stops or movements are interpreted as a thread to these dogs.  Practicing with them demonstrated that sometimes, being himself is too much for the dog, and he needs to be conscious of his movements, posture, and tone of voice.  I also had him practice squatting down and letting dogs approach him and take his treats.  He is very big and tall and he loves dogs, so it's hard for him to see how threatening he appears to the dog at times.

    When we met Chopper, it basically went like this:  her owner brought her out on a lead and handed it to me.  Chopper came right up to me and I started petting her and giving her treats.  DH crouched down a few feet behind me and focused on not staring at the dog.  Right away, she approached him on her own and took all his treats from his hands.  When the owner handed her off to me, she panicked.  The owner said she would be really anxious b/c she's really bonded with her.  As the owner walked away, Chopper started darting to avoid DH and pulling towards her owner.  I decided that she was getting too worked up and we started walking at a fast pace away from where her owner was.  Chopper was nervous of Phil being behind her, so I asked him to walk in front.  She was fine following him, and as we walked away, I stepped a little faster to move us closer to him, until after a few minutes she was walking alongside him even though I had the lead.  If he spoke to her or looked at her, she would duck to the side.  Once we were away from her owner and she was no longer panicking about that, I had DH sit down in the grass and I basically walked Chopper back and forth, getting her closer and closer to him and doing circles around him.  If she showed fear, I widened the radius back a few feet, but didn't really say anything to her or touch her, for fear of unintentionally reinforcing her anxiety.  After this exercise, we continued walking with DH in the lead, Chopper basically at his side.  Then, I handed the lead to DH and stopped walking.  She did glance back, but kept going with him and was not ducking to the side or darting backward like before.  This is the point where we shot the video I posted earlier.  You can see she is not comfortable being nicely at heel, but she is not trying to get away from him.  After our walk, we went back to the other people and found a spot in the shade to rest.  Chopper sat right next to me with DH sitting about 5 feet away.  He tossed her treats and then started tossing them halfway, so she had to move closer, and finally he was petting her and she was sitting next to him.

    Sorry, this is getting long!  Just trying to share what is working for us.  I'm not trying to say that she is "cured".  Not by any means.  Like Jester, any time we moved back towards the crowd where there were other men, she started getting figety and anxious again and then DH was back to square one, she would duck away from him.

    I'm hoping that by continuing these activities between DH and Chopper and slowly exposing her to more and more men, we can overcome it completely in time.  Like you said, it's hard b/c DH will spend 45 minutes getting to the point where she is comfortable sitting with him and she knows DH = treats and good stuff, but then we approach other men and suddenly DH = also a man = bad/scary again and we have to start over.

    My Blog - http://24ft.dutchbingo.net
    My Site - http://liesrosema.com
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