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Talk to me about ACL injuries (Bugsy)

Last post 10-04-2009 1:22 AM by BEVOLASVEGAS. 7 replies.
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  • 10-03-2009 9:29 AM

    • kpwlee
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    Talk to me about ACL injuries (Bugsy)

     well the penny has dropped today, no more 'woohoo it isn't hips', changed to 'OK what do we do now?'

    They want to do a TPLO, I am not so sure.  The amount of fluid in his knee was minimal, I need to call and ask about the 'drawer' test but I dont' think there is serious movement in the joint, some but not excessive at this time.  

    When it isn't bothering him he is 100% full on psycho beast Bugsy (as he just demonstrated in our yard).  Then there are the times it is bothering him and he has a significant limp and he moves at a normal dog speed Tongue Tied

    I am going to limit his access to stairs

    no playdates, fetch, tug etc anything that puts excessive stress on knees

    Keep doing leash walks and swimming

    He gets glucosamine/chondroitin (sp), nutri-joint (gelatin supplement), grain free high protein diet +raw

    I'm going to look into PT and see if there are ways to strengthen his quads (does he really need more muscle LOL)

    His weight is good but I am going to try and get it down further

    Found an article linking ACL tears to hypothyroidism which is now under control

    Not sure what else to do at this time, suggestions?  Experiences?  What would you do?

    I could try to limit all activity except leash walks for a while but let's face it that is going to be exceptionally traumatic and although I know it will be necessary after surgery, wondering if it is best now.

    I've joined a yahoo group dedicated to knee injuries now and was amazed to find that I saw two positive references to the place I took B so i think they are OK

    Bring on the info folks!  Thanks

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  • 10-03-2009 11:15 AM In reply to kpwlee

    Re: Talk to me about ACL injuries (Bugsy)

    The artlicle linking CCL tearss to hypothyroidism is interesting.  Brinxx has had TPLOs on both knees & she is hypothyroid.

    When we finally found out that the first knee was torn, it was already a complete tear, so surgery was, imo, the only option that I had.  When she hurt the other knee, it was deemed a partial tear.  I decided that, instead of surgery, I would try conservative management.  I confined her, & did leash walks only for 8 weeks.  She did improve, & she could get around normally after the 8 week period was over.  Then about 2 weeks later, she partially tore it again.  I opted for the TPLO immediately.

    To this day, I feel guilty about trying to deal with it conservatively.  For me, it is like I wasted 8 weeks of her life for no reason.  That 8 weeks could have been 8 weeks spent on recovery from surgery, not 8 extra weeks of confinement.

     

    Amanda

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  • 10-03-2009 11:19 AM In reply to kpwlee

    • JackieG
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    Re: Talk to me about ACL injuries (Bugsy)

    Karen, I wish I had some actual help to offer in the way of alternate therapy and treatment.  All I can say is that with my dog who completely tore her ACL, the surgery was the only option that offered her any hope of being an active 11 year old. :)   She was very dysplastic in the opposing hip and she was unable to walk without extreme pain.  The surgery was expensive but I have never regretted it, in her case.  I know of dogs who did not have full tears and recovered without surgery but it was a slow process that required very restricted activity.  The advantage is the dog doesn't have the always inherent risk of major surgery.  I worried about subjecting a senior dog to the risk but the alternative was even worse in her case.

    I would limit his exercise to leash walks while you research your choices but I would rely on the Vet for that advice.  If you bite the bullet and decide on the surgery, the results will be worth the recovery and rehab time.  My dog was a crazy to retrieve hunting dog who had been retired from her career but still "needed" much time retrieving and we so dreaded her long recovery (longer than normal due to her age and hip issue).  The fact is, it wasn't as bad as we thought it would be and she adapted very well to her limited activity.   I'm sure others with more first hand experience in the non surgical options will pop in and offer their input. 




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  • 10-03-2009 11:46 AM In reply to BEVOLASVEGAS

    • kpwlee
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    Re: Talk to me about ACL injuries (Bugsy)

     Thank you both for the info - so TPLO is the way to go?  Any other options you might use?

    We are fairly consigned the surgery and due to some travel by both of us the earliest (unless he blew it out) we could do it would be November.

    Many heavy sighs...................... It does feel fairly confusing because when it is fine it is fine.  You know what I mean?  I am worried that I might put him through a ton of stuff he doesn't need. But I also don't want to limit him a ton and then just extend the time he is limited.

    Another thing I worry about is the amount of dogs that have one knee done and then blow the other one immediately.  So if I take action for this leg the other one will be injured.  (sorry throwing out the things running through my head not sorting it out)

    And yes I am totally freaked by the prospect of restraining him.  Limiting his activity over the last few weeks has been darn near impossible and had such a negative impact on his emotional state.  Removing all activity feels more than daunting 

    Would you say that after the TPLO your dogs were 'normal'?  I only know the golden across the road and he walks terribly funny having had both done in the last 18 mos.  He's happy but floppy.  He is also the laziest dog known to mankind so the impact for him isn't as severe.

    ACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    that is all

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  • 10-03-2009 1:20 PM In reply to kpwlee

    Re: Talk to me about ACL injuries (Bugsy)

    Now, I know what I"m going to say is **NOT** popular.  but ... in total honesty, it's true.

    While you are confining him OR while he's recouperating -- you might consider a *low* protein diet -- just make up the rest of the % with mashed/cooked veggies (and I tell you, you probably won't have a problem with anal glands either). 

    Give a dog a super high protein diet and trying to limit their physical response is like giving them rocket fuel with no way to burn it off. 

    I'm never the queen of the high protein diets -- and I know everyone thinks I'm crazy but it is a *TREND* ... and historically my experience with dogs just doesn't bear it out. 

    I'm *not* advocating grain.  I'm advocating veggies -- not super pureed either.  I literally cook and mash them with a potato masher to incorporate them.  Today it's white potato, sweet potato, green beans, collard greens, broccoslaw and tomato with basil & oregano.  Also an acorn squash and carrots I already have.  (lots of anti-oxidants -- that's mostly my aim)

    I get nice, solid normal poop on all 4 dogs, and everything digests fully.  I peel nothing, but I cut up the potato only enough to keep the pieces of skin small enough to cook and break down well. Becca Shouse swears by a food processor (and I just plain hate them -- that's all in what works well in your kitchen and your right/left shoulder)

    But reducing the protein *will* reduce his excessive energy.

    Then -- you can do stuff like Hylands Calms Forte -- you can do 2 tablets 2-3 times a day -- and it will help take his edge off no matter what you have to do.

    You can add 2 valerian or passionflower capsules twice a day (you can combine those two no problem) and again -- it will help keep him a bit more relaxed.

    Those are *not* gonna be habit-forming but will help you keep him under control more easily without frustration than you'd otherwise find.

    Now after, you can go back to feeding whatever you like, but while he's having to stay sedentary (whether it's healing or just restricted) it should help.

    As far as the surgery -- I'm not sure there is a "win/win" scenario.  It's just plain not unusual for a dog to wind up having to have both knees done.  not always - depends on the dog and what happened in the first place.

    I have no chapter/verse on this, but I *have* heard vets say (in seminars) that you might just as well do a surgery to "repair" because ACL tears typically just plain don't heal well.  Once it's torn it's weak forever -- and it tends to be that the personality of the dog may simply ensure that they're going to ram around and tear it. 

    I also think (and this is my own personal observation) that often it *is* the more rambunctious dogs that do this, and by the time someone rests them for a couple of months -- but usually doesn't make any changes to try to lessen the dog's energy or how they expend their energy) then by the end of the rest period the dog is SO anxious to go ramming around again then *BLAM* they get hurt right away again.  It's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    Same thing wlhen a dog has been cooped up (much against their nature) to heal from a surgery and then once again -- once the restriction is lifted they get a week or two to regain their muscle and BLAM -- they think they can tear around and DO, and they rip the other one.

    You aren't going to change a no-holds barred rambunctious dog.  But if I were you I'd try even some diet changes ... and maybe more stuff like different activities to wear him out.

     A thot for you -- you don't have to go all the way to the mega trained "certified" therapy dog stage -- but even doing stuff like taking him to a nursing home to visit -- in total honesty that is WAY WAY WAY more energy expending than you'd believe.  It's typical that when my dogs get back from ANY pet therapy they are zoned for a while.  It's not hugely athletic -- but it IS a huge challenge for the mind.  Dealing with new people and situations -- trying hard to **be GOOD** -- frankly it's awesome how it wears them out.  Obviously you can't do that until after he's healed -- BUT it would be a good alternate activity for him that is less likely to rip/tear some part of his anatomy and it might help expend more energy than you'd believe.

    *YOU* are busy -- so it's not like I expect you to just suddenly grow a 2d life -- but it may help.

    Even some isometric stuff -- like maybe putting ALL his meals in a kong if you don't already do that (agan -- I know -- more work) but making him work harder -- even in his crate -- to get his supper eaten -- it can help you.

    You're more than welcome to slap me silly if you think I'm nuts here -- but in the long haul it might help.

     


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  • 10-03-2009 9:28 PM In reply to calliecritturs

    • kpwlee
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    Re: Talk to me about ACL injuries (Bugsy)

     Thanks Callie - couple of things

    we found out at about 10 months old that he is CALMER on high protein - we went to that sort of diet and he could actually engage for more than a millisecond.  Due to excessive allergies we have limited options food wise but I did go to a slightly lower protein food about a year ago and he is definitely more focused when on higher protein.  He has no poop issues and anal gland issues that we have had were allergy related.  Since doing the thyroid meds and getting his allergies under control no problem with the anal glands.

    I have wanted, since I learned about therapy dogs, to get him up to snuff as one - but again the struggle is the energy and size.  He truly doesn't walk - ever.  I would be terrified that one whip of the tail could cause fractures in the elderly.  Ask Annie aka Gradyupmybutt she'll tell ya LOL Without meeting him it is almost impossible to understand the energy, power and size.  I dream that one day he will be calm enough to do it - the last trainer we had wanted desperately to help me get him there and then said may be when he is older. Sigh.

    I will have to try the calming measures as he was already anxious today solely because I gated off the stairs. He is in such a deep sleep now I am considering not taking him out for his business.  He's part camel so it really isn't and issue but I feel it is better to take him out. Sigh.

    Whatever we wind up doing it is going to be extraordinarily difficult. I have vacillated today from scheduling the op to let's try the 8 week resting regime. I want to do what is best for him long term and I don't know what that is right now.

    Thanks again to all and I am hoping more ideas come my way.

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  • 10-04-2009 12:06 AM In reply to kpwlee

    Re: Talk to me about ACL injuries (Bugsy)

    You know -- I'm going to say TRY him ... a nursing home can be a great place to start.  See what he's like -- sometimes the most rambunctious dogs suddenly turn over a new leaf because they tend to understand "oops -- FRAGILE"

    If IS fair to use Hylands Calms and some valerian the first time -- see if you can get his brain to engage.

    If you can try a couple of places see if one has enough yard to just let someone toss a ball for him (or a pillow ... be creative).

    I've also used dogs that were rambunctious and *I* tossed toys for them, and literally just gave the folks something to WATCH.

    Most of them LOVE to give treats -- but be creative again.  Use something HUMAN food-wise.  Either make liver treats or use something that won't hurt if the person puts it in THEIR mouth (they do sometimes -- dementia ... it's an interesting thing)

    Even if they just watch you do some elementary obedience work -- it is amazing what entertains them and it may give Bugs a chance to think and realize he's gotta be careful.

    Socks LOVED her old people -- and yeah, she had a tail that was a lethal weapon too.  But after the first or second visit -- she began to realize these folks were fragile and she adjusted her strength incredibly well.


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  • 10-04-2009 1:22 AM In reply to kpwlee

    Re: Talk to me about ACL injuries (Bugsy)

    kpwlee:

     Thank you both for the info - so TPLO is the way to go?  Any other options you might use?

    Your choices are pretty much TPLO or a TTA.  After dealing with two successfull TPLO recoveries, I am biased & would go with the TPLO again.

     

    kpwlee:

    Another thing I worry about is the amount of dogs that have one knee done and then blow the other one immediately.  So if I take action for this leg the other one will be injured.  (sorry throwing out the things running through my head not sorting it out)

    There is a good chance that he will blow the other knee out.  I think the thing that you have to consider is that him blowing the other knee out is, at the least, a reasonable possibility any way that you go.  If you opt for surgery, he is going to have to put more pressure on his good knee while he is recovering.  If you don't do the surgery, he is still going to be putting extra pressure on his good knee to compensate for the instability in his bad knee.  I would bet that, right now, his good leg is larger than his bad leg.  It is very likely that his bad leg has muscle atrophy already because he has been using his other leg to compensate.  It is, unfortunately, a lose lose situation. 

     

    kpwlee:

    Would you say that after the TPLO your dogs were 'normal'?  I only know the golden across the road and he walks terribly funny having had both done in the last 18 mos.  He's happy but floppy.  He is also the laziest dog known to mankind so the impact for him isn't as severe.

    After the recovery period Brinxx has returned to normal.  She can do everything that she could do before the surgeries.  Before the surgeries, I used her to help work cows.  After the surgeries, I was a little concerned that her cutting abilities would be hindered, but there have never been any issues.  She is the same dog that she was before surgery, only with better knees! Wink

     

    Amanda

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