Intermediate bridges

• 09-22-2009 5:54 PM

  corvus Joined on 08-02-2006 Australia (NSW) Posts 2,693 Points 80	Intermediate bridges Reply Contact  Does anyone here use intermediate bridges, or "keep going" signals? Any thoughts on them? Mourning Penny. We were going to be young together forever, but I'm glad we grew up together instead.
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• 09-22-2009 6:11 PM

  In reply to corvus

  Spazzy Joined on 04-22-2006 Connecticut Posts 825 Points 20

  Re: Intermediate bridges Reply Contact I use it for some things, and a clicker for others, and sometimes i use them together. Im no trainer (not yet at least ) but it seems like a really good tool to me. Instead of just clicking when he did something i wanted, the intermediate bridge seemed to get the message across faster, cause he knew when he was headed the right direction. I started it was things he already knew, like sit, down, and stay. He used to have a very "slow" down. But once i started the using the bridging he "got it" that the faster he went down the faster he got the reward. Of course ive only been able to use this with one dog so far, but it seems to work good with Bailey. http://synalia.com/ I really want to get the manuals... but i dont have the extra money at the moment. -Chelsea &

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• 09-22-2009 6:47 PM

  In reply to Spazzy

  Liesje Joined on 03-02-2007 Posts 9,910 Points 655

  Re: Intermediate bridges Reply Contact Yep, I do all the time.  The heeling pattern for SchH obedience (BH-SchH3) is loooooooooong compared to any AKC obedience event (and for the BH you do it twice b/c you do it on leash and then off).  I'm currently at the point where we are starting to build longer heeling towards the full pattern, and while I don't want to stop to reward my dog (rewarding = breaking out the ball, playing tug, outing, and starting over), I want to encourage him and let him know he's right.  I usually say "yes....good....yes..." in an affirmative tone but not so excited that he breaks.  "OK" is the release word.  Honestly I don't see how I could train the full pattern and be fair to the dog without marking and encouraging him as we go.  This way he can work a little longer for his reward but still know he's doing it right.  Eventually we phase the rewards, then phase the encouragement, but unless it's like the last few days before a trial, I am still encouraging the dog as we go. Here's a BH routine, it starts :44 (must heel into position but you are still allowed to touch/praise the dog and then give another command to start the pattern) and ends at 5:40.  That's 5 minutes of heeling with no reward or encouragement. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jURaEkImDWc http://vankelderdogs.dutchbingo.net http://www.schhmi.com

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• 09-25-2009 6:04 PM

  In reply to Liesje

  Kim_MacMillan Joined on 11-21-2006 Eastern Canada Posts 1,592 Points 200	Re: Intermediate bridges Reply Contact Yep, I use keep going signals for different things, when I think it will make training go quicker or work more efficiently. My KGS is generally a word, I don't use a clicker for that purpose as the clicker has a very precise and unified meaning and purpose for my training. Zipper, 6 yo. Gaci, 5 yo. Shimmer, 2.5 yo.
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• 09-25-2009 10:26 PM

  In reply to Kim_MacMillan

  corvus Joined on 08-02-2006 Australia (NSW) Posts 2,693 Points 80	Re: Intermediate bridges Reply Contact Do you think there's a danger in leaning on an IB or KGS so that you let other things creep into what you are trying to teach?  Mourning Penny. We were going to be young together forever, but I'm glad we grew up together instead.
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• 09-26-2009 8:16 AM

  In reply to corvus

  Liesje Joined on 03-02-2007 Posts 9,910 Points 655	Re: Intermediate bridges Reply Contact   corvus: Do you think there's a danger in leaning on an IB or KGS so that you let other things creep into what you are trying to teach?  I don't usually use it when initially teaching, but if I'm trying to lengthen duration (ie, heeling, long stay, long track). http://vankelderdogs.dutchbingo.net http://www.schhmi.com
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• 09-26-2009 9:28 AM

  In reply to Liesje

  Jason L Joined on 09-17-2009 Posts 79 Points 0

  Re: Intermediate bridges Reply Contact I'm having a heck of time building any duration with Dottie the corgi. She has a very low frustration threshold and if you don't click her right away when she offers the behavor she thinks she is doing something wrong and will start getting mad at you and at herself. I've only had her for 8 weeks and in that time I've seen her go into this crazy meltdown mode at least 5 times (where she gets SOOOOO frustrated that she just loses it completely - start barking, spinning in circle, growling, charging me, pretty much everything but foaming at the mouth - and each time this would last 3-4 minutes before she would calm down and listen). IB is about trust and right now I'm working to get her to trust me more when we train ("I'm not going to cheat you. Your reward is coming. Just keep working").

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• 09-26-2009 5:39 PM

  In reply to Jason L

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 11,729 Points 1,020

  Re: Intermediate bridges Reply Contact   Jason L: I'm having a heck of time building any duration with Dottie the corgi. She has a very low frustration threshold and if you don't click her right away when she offers the behavor she thinks she is doing something wrong and will start getting mad at you and at herself. I've only had her for 8 weeks and in that time I've seen her go into this crazy meltdown mode at least 5 times (where she gets SOOOOO frustrated that she just loses it completely - start barking, spinning in circle, growling, charging me, pretty much everything but foaming at the mouth - and each time this would last 3-4 minutes before she would calm down and listen). IB is about trust and right now I'm working to get her to trust me more when we train ("I'm not going to cheat you. Your reward is coming. Just keep working"). With some of the herders, it pays to shorten your training sessions, even when trying to build duration - build it a bit more each session, but don't belabor the point.   Work under that frustration threshold so that she gets rewarded for tiny increments of improvement, but doesn't have the meltdown.   As to the original point - what Kim said is basically what I do - I like to quietly encourage with a bridge when necessary. Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 20 1/2 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog In memory of Mike, please become an organ donor today. "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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• 09-28-2009 4:03 AM

  In reply to Jason L

  corvus Joined on 08-02-2006 Australia (NSW) Posts 2,693 Points 80

  Re: Intermediate bridges Reply Contact  Can I just say that I think Dottie is gorgeous! Kivi is a bit like this with frustration as well, although he's way too chilled for tantrums. He's more likely to just throw himself on the ground and whine at me but refuse to do anything else. I'm finding that with him it's really important to keep that reward rate up. I've been wondering if I should click less but still reward the same amount or just move in smaller increments? Mourning Penny. We were going to be young together forever, but I'm glad we grew up together instead.

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• 09-28-2009 9:54 AM

  In reply to corvus

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 11,729 Points 1,020

  Re: Intermediate bridges Reply Contact  It's not a question of "clicking less" it's a question of knowing when to withhold a click to get the dog to try a new behavior, or to increase the duration of an existing behavior.  So, if you are going for duration, then you would gradually wait longer before each click. Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 20 1/2 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog In memory of Mike, please become an organ donor today. "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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• 09-28-2009 5:35 PM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  Pit_Pointer_Aussie Joined on 04-13-2007 Upstate New York Posts 1,525 Points 125

  Re: Intermediate bridges Reply Contact spiritdogs: With some of the herders, it pays to shorten your training sessions, even when trying to build duration - build it a bit more each session, but don't belabor the point.   Work under that frustration threshold so that she gets rewarded for tiny increments of improvement, but doesn't have the meltdown.   As to the original point - what Kim said is basically what I do - I like to quietly encourage with a bridge when necessary.   I do this with Luna when teaching new things or building duration over a few minutes. To the original post, yes. I use the word "good" when I want them to keep doing what they are doing and reward later (healing, a string of behaviors or duration).

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• 09-29-2009 5:36 PM

  In reply to Pit_Pointer_Aussie

  Jason L Joined on 09-17-2009 Posts 79 Points 0

  Re: Intermediate bridges Reply Contact  Working under threshold is very important with Dottie. Luckily you can't miss her tell tale sign that she is getting close because she always lets out this low rumbling growl when she thinks you're cheating her. Somedays when she is in a bad mood she would let out her growl WHILE doing her obedience. I talked to her agility trainer last night about this and she suggested I try not looking at her when I offers bridge words like "good" or "good girl" ... I guess calming signals.

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• 10-17-2009 1:02 PM

  In reply to Liesje

  AgileGSD Joined on 09-16-2007 Posts 1,034 Points 65

  Re: Intermediate bridges Reply Contact Liesje: Yep, I do all the time.  The heeling pattern for SchH obedience (BH-SchH3) is loooooooooong compared to any AKC obedience event (and for the BH you do it twice b/c you do it on leash and then off).  I'm currently at the point where we are starting to build longer heeling towards the full pattern, and while I don't want to stop to reward my dog (rewarding = breaking out the ball, playing tug, outing, and starting over), I want to encourage him and let him know he's right.  I usually say "yes....good....yes..." in an affirmative tone but not so excited that he breaks.  "OK" is the release word.  Honestly I don't see how I could train the full pattern and be fair to the dog without marking and encouraging him as we go.  This way he can work a little longer for his reward but still know he's doing it right.  Eventually we phase the rewards, then phase the encouragement, but unless it's like the last few days before a trial, I am still encouraging the dog as we go.     I now train heeling silently so that my dogs never expect to be talked to or encouraged during a heeling pattern. Jagger was able to learn that a smile meant he was doing well, so in a way that is a "keep going" signal. To build duration I use the 300 peck method but rewards and praise come after I mark the behavior. Most people teach heeling by talking to and encouraging the dog, than trying to wean them off of it. It certainly can be done but it is difficult with some dogs.

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