Diseases & Conditions

Re: Gibbys stomach

dyan — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 02:31:48 GMT

calliecritturs:

The color is also critical -- the more "yellow" it is (and it can at times be the color of mustard) likely indicates it's inflammatory bowl or some form of collitis. The color isn't from what he ate -- it's from the digestive enzymes, etc. -- and for some reason the peristalsis in the intestinal tract is working too 'fast' so the stool isn't spending ENOUGH time in the large intestine for all the moisture to be removed that *should* be.

This can be stress-related, it can be bacteria related, or it can be related to food additives. Rather than thinking it's a particular meat source - it's more likely to be a sensitivity to an additive - like a preservative or even a flavoring that may be in particular foods.

Very interesting Callie. HHHmmmmmm stress related is big....especially since DH and I have discussed a few times that he seems to have trouble occasionally on Saturday......after leaving him alone on Fridays. We wondered if it was stess or he was eating something he shouldn't have.

Today we took him to my sisters house who has a lot of land for him to run. I didn't think he would run much becuase he was really tired and worn a couple of days ago....but when he got there he was so happy that he ran and ran....remembering all the places that he ran last time he was there. We had a cookout and stayed out most of the day....he is really zonked out now though...lol! He also took a dump over there....it was still on the soft side but darker in color....but still a weird color for sure. He is only going once now....where before he started the diarrhea...he was going 3 or 4 times...which was also unusual.

calliecritturs:

So when he's already showing inflammation (and his digestive/intestinal tract IS inflamed which is why it's not working well) I wouldn't give him chicken *now*.

Wow......when this all started I cooked 2 bags of frozen boneless chicken thighs......I bought them for him to cook for toppings....so got them out and started cooking them to eat now. He must have eaten them Thursday and Friday at t he start of this.....but the last few days he was eating cooked ground beef with/rice. Today I purchased a few more pounds of G. Beef for him. I think I will keep him on it tomorrow still and then Tues. add a little kibble to it.

Re: Gibbys stomach

calliecritturs — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 21:27:47 GMT

dyan:

Oh..I wanted to add....as far as chicken goes....I have been cooking chicken for toppings on his food for a long time so that with the fact that there is chicken in his food that he never had a problem with makes me think he doesn't have a problem with chicken.

Dyan -- you're misunderstanding me. I'm NOT saying he's 'allergic' to chicken. It's simply that chicken, in the TCVM realm, is considered an inflammatory meat. That means it may be FINE sometimes, BUT if the body is looking for a reason TO manifest inflammation, chicken will give it the excuse. Meaning sometimes it may be fine. Other times it's going to rev up a problem that may already be just waiting for a way to show itself (like inflammation). They actually call it a "hot meat" -- not referring to the temperature of it but rather to the effect it can have in the body.

So when he's already showing inflammation (and his digestive/intestinal tract IS inflamed which is why it's not working well) I wouldn't give him chicken *now*.

Also -- make sure the vet knows this is not a consistent problem. When diarreah is "explosive" it is a small intestine thing. But when it's only showing up in part of the stool (he has to go BADLY but he can wait until he's "assumed the position" outside) and is just "soft" or partially soft stool, then it's a LARGE intestine thing. For some reason the large intestine is not removing the rest of the moisture from his food as it should. And honestly, that's an important clue for the vet to have -- whether it's just "soft" (and only SOME of it is) or "explosive".

The color is also critical -- the more "yellow" it is (and it can at times be the color of mustard) likely indicates it's inflammatory bowl or some form of collitis. The color isn't from what he ate -- it's from the digestive enzymes, etc. -- and for some reason the peristalsis in the intestinal tract is working too 'fast' so the stool isn't spending ENOUGH time in the large intestine for all the moisture to be removed that *should* be.

This can be stress-related, it can be bacteria related, or it can be related to food additives. Rather than thinking it's a particular meat source - it's more likely to be a sensitivity to an additive - like a preservative or even a flavoring that may be in particular foods.

Re: Gibbys stomach

dyan — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 17:19:12 GMT

willowchow:

Glad he's feeling better Dyan. I think the messy poop with the weird color you are seeing right now is due to the chicken/rice combo. Willow gets the same orangey color with anything with rice. Of course, I could be waaaay off but either way I wouldn't worry too much that will change as he transfers back to his usual food.

Thanks Lori....THATS good to hear...... Yes your right...we are only guessing but educated guesses are helpful. I'm thinking more positive than I was ( knock on wood...... ) and trying to think ahead on what to start him out with for kibble.......or should I go with the BilJac Frozen. I won't start him out with the formula he ate the last week...maybe will go to one he had been eating for a bit. Wish I still had the puppy food he had been eating for a year.......then I would have a better idea. Already have a 33# bag of natural, another of adult giant breed and whats left of the duck. Thank goodness PSP let me return the other bag of Natural I had last night. If I have to switch brands...I will have to start with small bags and thats expensive when you are feeding a giant breed.

Re: Gibbys stomach

willowchow — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 14:05:55 GMT

Glad he's feeling better Dyan. I think the messy poop with the weird color you are seeing right now is due to the chicken/rice combo. Willow gets the same orangey color with anything with rice. Of course, I could be waaaay off but either way I wouldn't worry too much that will change as he transfers back to his usual food.

Re: Gibbys stomach

dyan — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 12:55:42 GMT

Shew....okay. First,,,,,,, thanks to all of you that are taking time to help us. I really appreciate you all...you have to know that.

This morning Gibbys "good boy" was a clump of his breakfast which was boiled meat/rice. You see...he likes his toys when he wants to play...but he LOVES LOVES LOVES his food and treats. Gibby was born to eat so taking away a treat that he has been getting since he came to live with us leaves a giant dog sitting in the kitchen by the sink drooling. Doesn't matter what kind of treat...its a treat that he can eat. Good idea about the little container of meat that he is eating Lorie...... I will do that. In my head...about a 1/8 slice of plain bread is bland and a nothing food compared to treats, so that is why I started giving him it instead. He seems totally fine now in that he is doing everything he always did..including playing and bothering us while we are trying to do anything such as type on the computer...read the paper..etc. He is always looking for food just like always also. He doesn't ever drink much water so I have been adding pretty close to 1 c in his food each meal....always did it with his kibble also, not soak...just add it and put it down. Everything is cool EXCEPT yesterday his stool was still yucky. Of course it looks nothing like his kibble fed stool so I don't know what to make of that. It is yellow in color which is certainly NOT what it was ever. Also it starts out more formed but then end is mushy...almost watery. He is only going once per day now for the past few days. So I am not worried about him getting dehydrated...or going too much. He went twice a day before all this started...sometimes three times. But the boiled rice and meat doesn't give much for him to go. I have to get him calcium...but I did give him another Tums with breakfast...... the bottle says 750mgs of calcium carbonate.

I will buy him more ground meat this morning and cook for another few days but worry that he is not getting everything he needs as he has been eating this now since Thursday...thats 4 days. Then which formula to start back on is questionable. I'm confused to say the least. Gibby had been on EP Holistic Puppy almost since I got him. His stools were fine...he digested it great. He did have occasional throw ups...but almost always it was before feeding time, and it was bile. I had taking him back to eating 3 times a day rather than 2 larger ones because I know if I get really hungry I get sick to my stomach. Once he turned a year old I needed to get him off puppy formula and bought a couple of different bags of EP. The last one was the Natural formula that is not holistic. Of all things I bought two bags of it because PSP got it in and they amost never get it..... I took the unopened one back last night. I figured when he gets better I can try it again to see for sure, but the mgr said I can return it. Who knows.....that is the formula that does have corn..maybe that presents a problem. Corn is pretty much the only ingredient that he hadn't had before. I was even thinking that maybe I should buy another bag of the puppy......but looking back at the ingredients.... its still lamb, chicken and fish for protein. Since he always had firm stools and almost never vomitted food...I have to wonder if its ingredients in his food.

I will take a stool sample to work with me this week and have it tested to make sure of whatever they look for. The only thing that really changed much is that he has been going to day camp or play day once in a while. He gets really really excited about it and perhaps a little stressed...not sure. Also got his 1 yr distemper....and for sure he got a loose stool after I gave him his HW preventive, but it firmed back up the next day.

Oh..I wanted to add....as far as chicken goes....I have been cooking chicken for toppings on his food for a long time so that with the fact that there is chicken in his food that he never had a problem with makes me think he doesn't have a problem with chicken.

Re: Gibbys stomach

willowchow — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 04:13:44 GMT

Willow doesn't do well with chicken either.

Re: Gibbys stomach

calliecritturs — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 03:06:33 GMT

tzu_mom:

For what it's worth, my G-I challenged guy does his very best on a red meat based diet (beef, bison, lamb, venison).

That's not at all uncommon -- and your suggestions are very sensible. If anyoe wants to consider what Chinese medicine (TCVM) says -- it **always** considers chicken an inflammatory meat -- my guys don't get it at all. They aren't 'allergic' but if there is inflammation hiding anywhere chicken will bring it out.

Re: Gibbys stomach

tzu_mom — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 03:03:11 GMT

You may want to treat this an an elimination diet and feed him something he has not had before---I would probably not feed chicken/rice, but hamburger (fat drained) and potato or oatmeal (if he has not had that) and no extras----that includes treats----if you must treat, then feed bits of hamburger or whatever meat you are feeding for the "bland" diet. If you are unsure of the amounts to feed, ask your vet, they should have a good idea of portions. I would feed this for at least a week, maybe more to stabilize his gut, then slowly add the kibble back into his diet plan, along with a good probiotic/prebiotic to populate the friendly flora in his G-I tract.

For what it's worth, my G-I challenged guy does his very best on a red meat based diet (beef, bison, lamb, venison).

Re: Gibbys stomach

willowchow — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 02:12:56 GMT

Dyan, what I do for treats when she's not well is get one of those extra small Gladware containers and just take a piece of a turkey breast or whatever meat she's eating as her food for the moment and shred it up or cut it up into pieces and give her a few of those as her treat.

I've also frozen baby food meat in ice cube trays and tried that but she didn't really like them. But, Gibby might.

Re: Gibbys stomach

grab01 — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 01:56:35 GMT

or, if he's not into toy rewards, just skip the treat for a few days.

Re: Gibbys stomach

CoBuHe — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 01:31:23 GMT

Use a high value toy as his treat instead of a food item.

Re: Gibbys stomach

dyan — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 00:42:35 GMT

Guess I will need to figure out what he can have for a treat when he goes outside and expects a "goodboy" when he comes in. I always gave him a dog bisquit. I bet the amount of bread he ate since he has been sick for the past couple of days equal 1 slice.

Funny you should mention calcium Janice....I just gave him a Tums to add calcium in his diet.

I DO intend to take a stool sample in to work with me next week......

Re: Gibbys stomach

willowchow — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 00:30:12 GMT

Dyan, when Willow has stomach issues--which is pretty often--I give her a Pepcid--I just pill her, no cheese, no bread, nothing with it. Then I let her have bland boiled turkey breast or baby food turkey or whatever bland meat. I do not ever give her rice. It makes her worse on both ends.

I will give her very small amounts of bland meat for a day or so, then add in her regular food, but very small meals at first.

I think besides the bland, you are just feeding him way too much for an upset tummy. Think of it in turns of when we are sick, yeah, we need to eat bland, but usually we are just picking on saltines or whatever, right? I've applied the same concept to her.

And, I've found that with this little routine I have it works out well. It really doesn't matter if he doesn't eat enough for one or two days. I mean as soon as he's feeling better he's going to put the weight right back.

Hope he's feeling better soon!

Re: Gibbys stomach

jessies_mom — Sat, 11 Jul 2009 23:31:12 GMT

Dyan; try adding calcium to his cooked food. It should firm up his stool. Someone posted on K9 Kitchen and was cooking chicken and rice for their dog because it was having the same problem as Gibby but the dog's stools were very soft. She told them to add calcium. For every three and a half ounces of chicken or beef, add 250 milligrams of calcium. You may need a food scale to weigh the meat, and you need to weigh it after cooking before you mix it with the rice. You can get NOW brand calcium carbonate at any health food store; one teaspoon is 1200 milligrams of calcium. Until you add calcium his stool will probably be soft, at least part of the time.

I looked at the bil-jac frozen online, and it's 18% protein and 8% fat, so it has much less fat than bil-jac dry and less than many other dry foods. Maybe that's why Gibby did well on it.

Re: Gibbys stomach

grab01 — Sat, 11 Jul 2009 22:25:24 GMT

Yep, pasty rice and a bland protein source like chicken. No dairy, no bread. Poor Aesop, when he had a nasty bout of the poos a bit back, doesn't like rice so we ended up feeding oatmeal (overcooked to a gross pasty form as well) and chicken, which seems icky to me, but he thought it was fantastic.

For this poo issue, I'd also think about dropping off a stool sample if you haven't already, just in case a bacteria is causing that particular issue.

I'd also cut out the yogurt (even small licks) while he's having this particular problem.