Trainers, Philosophies and Methods

E-collar discussion

Liesje — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:04:41 GMT

Loaded topic, no? ;) I'm particularly interested in hearing from those who have use/do use them. I'm interested in their use as a marker and their use on soft, handler sensitive dogs. I'm *not* interested in their (improper) use for corrected or harsh physical coersion. I'm more interested in discussing them from the angle of those who are experienced with them and have used them properly, we already know that JQP has no business slapping one on their pet dog and zapping away.

My SchH trainer uses an e-collar on his Malinois as a way to mark behavior. It surprised me at first (before I had any experience with how e-collars are actually used by good trainers), but he put the collar on my wrist (being a very sensitive area of the human body) and gave me the marker nick and had to ask him to do it again to even feel it. The reasoning is that in SchH many behaviors are done a football field away from the handler, how to you mark that with a clicker that is only audible within a certain range? You can just not mark it, but how to you run to your dog with the reward within 2 seconds of the behavior when he's 50 yards away? The trainer I have been working with does ALL the foundation work with positive reinforcement, clicker training, food and toy rewards, etc. But there comes a point in the dog's training where you need to start building the distance but don't want to immediately phase out the marker all at once. So he trained the dog that the vibration or level 1 nick is the affirmative mark. It also comes in handy because often he is working his own dogs as a helper, so it's inappropriate if not impossible for him to be verbally marking or using a clicker while doing helper work, but he can easily hold the remote in the stick hand to affirm the dog's behaviors during protection.

I've also met someone who has trained her Golden using an e-collar. The dog is very shy and very sensitive to the handler. She cannot correct the dog at all and even a verbal correction or NRM can cause the dog to shut down. I've met the dog several times and it's even more shy and sensitive than my Kenya. She did not know how to train her dog and build a relationship with the dog because it was so sensitive to everything, even things not intended as corrections like accidentally bumping the dog or yelling out to a friend. You can give a dog treats all day long but if the dog's state of mind is still one of anxiety, what does giving the treat really accomplish? The result is a trained dog that will work for food rewards but is still stressed. So, she tried an e-collar and to my intrigue, it's working awesome. I asked about it and the owner said that there was too much emotion between her and her dog, the e-collar takes that away. The only touch the dog receives is positive, the only verbal communication the dog receives is praise or reassurance. We're not talking about sharp prong collar jabs but a dog that would previously shut down if you said "no". I don't really understand how or why it works but the proof seems to be in the pudding.

Now we have another dog at our club that is going to start on the e-collar. The issue with this dog is that the handler has coddled and babied him. The dog is actually a pretty drivey dog and he can be sharp and aggressive (appropriately so) in protection. But he has such a strong emotional connection to the handler that *any* sort of leash check throws him off balance mentally. He gets this look in his eye like "hey, wait, I am the boss at home how can you call the shots here?" He can't work through the conflict presented in the bitework because he can't seem to get passed the fact that his handler is now in control. This was another surprising development to me, because Nikon has always been quite handler sensitive and has never treated me like a doormat the way this dog has treated his handler (and gotten away with it). Yet Nikon has come out of his shell in protection and will do the entire session in that phase on a live prong collar and never bat an eye. But now the prong is too much for the other dog who has always been more confident and more pushy.

We've talking about imprinting the e-collar on Nikon but just haven't done it b/c they are so expensive. At the level he is at now, the e-collar really wouldn't be any different than how we train (all foundation work is done with treats, then toys to build drive and speed, the dog is only checked once he already understands the behavior, and the collar is always on as a safety precaution even when not being used), but it would give us more opportunities for distance work and get rid of the leash and collar that get snagged, tripped on, and wound around our legs.

Not scared to be scared

corvus — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 06:46:35 GMT

I have to say, I AM scared of damaging my dogs' psyche, and don't understand why you wouldn't be if you really cared about the wellbeing of the animals in your care. It doesn't bother me in the slightest when people accuse me of being scared to punish my dogs. It's true, and for reasons that are intensely important to me. I hope it will always be true for me. I can still do it, but I hope it will always be a very big deal to me if I do. Scared and proud of it, folks.

Great Website

AgileGSD — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 02:16:05 GMT

If you have never been to Silvia Trkman's site, it is well worth a vist! Lots of training articles and videos by one of the top agility people in the world. Lots of the training info is useful for any venue or just training your pet dog but there is a lot of good agility specific stuff too.

http://silvia.trkman.net/

Is dominance really so bad?

corvus — Thu, 22 Oct 2009 23:12:21 GMT

Dominance is often seen as the big bad wolf of dog behaviour. I've been wondering lately if it's really so bad, though. It seems to me that a lot of people will disallow behaviour solely because they think it is dominant without ever considering why it's dominant or whether it impacts on their relationship with their dog at all. It's like they think better to be safe than sorry. Sorry how?

I keep thinking, dominance is empty if it doesn't result in control. And a lot of dogs are pretty good at getting what they want from you through submissive behaviours. The way I see it, my dogs can posture and believe in their dominance all they like as long as their behaviour doesn't influence me so that I'm doing things for them that I don't really want to do. In other words, I don't mind if they act in a dominant way provided they don't expect me to do what they want me to do. I do mind if they act in a submissive way if they exepct it to result in me doing something I don't want to do. I think we should be more concerned with whether our dogs control us than the methods they use to do it.

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure my dogs think they can control me by offering behaviours I have rewarded them for. Erik demands things by sitting very quietly in front of me. Again, they can think it all they like as long as they're 'controlling' me by doing what I ask!

What She Said...

spiritdogs — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:44:42 GMT

Yes, I am still anti-CM, and, being one of those trainers who was around thirty years ago (as mentioned in the article), I still believe that there is a better, more humane, way to successfully address behavior problems in dogs. This article came to my attention this morning as I was reading the latest posts on someone's FB page, and I wanted to share it because it highlights, and rebuts, some of the common arguments made for his style of "rehabilitation."

http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm

Animal Cruelty

spiritdogs — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 12:25:41 GMT

I thought it might be interesting to have a little thread about instances where dog trainers have been accused of animal cruelty. Regardless of the outcome of the cases, it's shocking to me that this would even have to be an issue, but apparently it is. The scary thing is that most people, when they call a trainer, do not even ask about how the training will be carried out, and some actually leave their dogs at board and train centers without due diligence in investigating the techniques used behind those closed doors. They ask how much it costs, or where you are located, way more than they talk about method. But, many dogs have been subjected to nebulous practices, or even abuse, because their unsuspecting owners trusted a "trainer". People, please use your investigative skills before you leave your dog in another person's care. These are only the people who came to the attention of law enforcement - I'm sure that there are others who remain in the shadows...

http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/9802/IL/US/

http://njspca.org/njspca-police-blotter_Trainer_Charged.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/203485.stm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pc-jailed-for-dog-cruelty-1078645.html

http://thespiritdog.wordpress.com/2009/01/04/no-felony-animal-cruelty-in-ohio-no-justice/

http://wweek.com/editorial/2002/10/23/dog-trainer-nailed-for-cruelty/

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/27/national/main5425529.shtml

Control unleashed class #2

Jewlieee — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:13:21 GMT

I almost broke down in to tears last night! Things did not go well and I felt guilty and frustrated all at the same time.

First abbie barked and lunged all the way to our box. Then while I was trying to do mat work, she could hear the dog on the other side of the barrier so she started reacting to that. They had to put up TWO gates on each side so that she would settle down and stop worrying.

She would not calm down enough for us to do any of the exercises though. I tried a new technique for "look at that" since the other way wasn't working. Basically I took a stuffed animal, put it behind my back then pulled it out quickly and when abbie looked at it I clicked treated and put the stuffie back behind my back. Well this stressed abbie out so much that she turned away from me, sat down, ears flat and her head pointed up to the wall/ ceiling. It was the most extreme avoidance body language that I had ever seen out of her! That I had caused that stress really made me wonder if I'm the one that is causing her worried reactive behavior in the first place.

The instructor came over to work with us and she did a few look at that's, but abbie would catch on which hand was holding the stuffie and would avoid looking that way. So we had to switch hands every 2 times to fake her out.

Then we tried to work on crate games. Forget it. She was not going in there for nothing. She doesn't love crates anyway so I expected it and didn't push.

At that point I just laid down on the floor next to her (she was on her mat) and gave her a massage. This is what her and I do every night before bed. She instantly relaxed so I did that for the rest of the class while everyone else worked. Eventually abbie fell asleep (I was happy that she relaxed so much).

Obviously this is going to be a very long process. She worries so much about her surroundings that her brain just doesn't function and she boils over. I talked to our vet and we are starting her on a very low dose of prozac. The hope is that the prozac will lower her stress so that she can actually think enough to work on some of these cu techniques.

The whole thing is so upsetting but I'm determined to make it work. I don't want her going through life being so stressed.

WOO HOOO!!

stardog85 — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 18:30:10 GMT

Not sure if this is the best place to put it, but it *is* dog related, sooooo......

I'm proud to announce that I'm officially a "CPDT-KA" (Certified Pet Dog Trainer - Knowledge Assessed) - my results came in the mail today after an interminable wait. I just want to scream it from the mountain tops. LOL

Pulling on Leash - New DVD

spiritdogs — Sun, 25 Oct 2009 11:10:37 GMT

Turid Ruugas has a new DVD coming out on dogs that pull on lead. Tawzer Dog Videos will have it in late October. Turid has a small book on the subject, too, but I think it will be interesting to see the video.

Couldn't Have Said it Better...

spiritdogs — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 11:35:33 GMT

From Dee Ganley's book, "Changing People, Changing Dogs"...

""Loving" our dogs does not create trustworthy companions. Commitment by a dog to his people is the result of humane training and diligent management. It happens when we wholly accept the responsibility to lead, but not to dominate. Humane leadership allows the dog's capacity to think and feel to be used for learning rather than defense and avoidance."

Beyond Cesar Millan

spiritdogs — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 23:51:06 GMT

This is not intended to stir any pots, just to let people know it's out there if they want to explore the other side of the argument regarding the kind of techniques that Cesar Millan employs versus the opinions of trainers and behaviorists who do not approve of his methods. This is just a site where a lot of different people are speaking out about this matter in one place. Makes it easy to get a lot of their perspectives without hunting all over the net. The average pet owner probably doesn't know many of these people, but quite a few of them are eminently qualified behaviorists and trainers who have a different perspective, just don't have the same bully pulpit as someone who has a show on NGC.

http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/index.html

Ed Frawley of Leerburg goes positive??

Kim_MacMillan — Sun, 20 Sep 2009 13:31:01 GMT

Soo...I saw this on another one of my lists. It seems that Mr. Frawley has caught on to the power of using markers and rewards/food in training...this year Leerburg has produced two new DVD's:

The Power of Training Dogs with Food, and The Power of Training Dogs with Markers......

Now, I haven't watched them,

From http://leerburg.com/219.htm

I had been training dogs for almost 45 years when I started to learn this system. I felt like a kid in a candy store when I saw how well it worked and the attitude of my dogs that were being trained with markers. The fact is I still feel like that when I see dogs work with markers.

It was not than many years ago (in 1990’s) that I was pretty vocal about how stupid I thought clicker training was. Those comments were made from a position of ignorance and a lack of understanding. Simply put, I was dead wrong and I made those comments without knowing the details of how the system worked. The power of marker training lies in understanding and applying the details.

Since the early 1900’s dog training has been an evolving skill. We only need to look back to the 1970’s and the methods of William Kholer or Winifred Strickland to see how far dog training has improved is the last 25 years. In my opinion no one is ever going to reinvent a better way to train dogs than with markers. The only thing that we will see change will be people who do a better job of applying this method of dog training.

Very interesting indeed. I really am happy to see that once all trainers, of any philosophy, open up their minds and thoughts, that one can see quite easily that using a marker in training (what people call clicker training) is a very sound, valid, reliable, and exceptional science.

At first I guessed that Mr. Frawley simply jumped on the bandwagon for financial reasons, but in reading some of the marker and food-training things on his site, I think that he genuinely does have an interest in making this a permanent, and valuable, part of his training program. And for that, I applaud him.

Deference, Appeasement & Calming Signals in Training

spiritdogs — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 11:39:04 GMT

A lot is made of dominance among dogs, and to justify humans' treatment of dogs. But, if you look at dogs' social model, it's usually one of deference more than dominance. Dogs do a lot of appeasement gestures and signals that say "I'm not a threat.". Everything from tongue flicks to curving the body to play bows to averting the gaze. If most dogs were not generally deferential, there would be a lot more dog fights. Is it possible that we should be using more of those signals in our communication with dogs when we are asking them to accept things that are scary? If we curve our bodies, or avert our gazes when we put a collar on a pup, would it make a difference? I think it would. So often, I see owners calling their dogs with a frontal posture, leaning over and making direct eye contact with the dog, almost demanding that he come. No wonder Fido doesn't want to come. Then, when I suggest that they call the dog in a lighter tone, expose the side of their body, and squint their eyes while keeping an open mouth, suddenly the dog comes to them. I've done it for a while now in our Rocket Recall classes and it seems to work very well. Of course, many humans just go back to their pre-programmed responses, but the ones who don't are having more success. Has anyone else made good use of the doggy calming signals in a training situation? Curious to hear your experiences.

John Fisher's Two Reward System for Reactive Dogs

spiritdogs — Sat, 10 Oct 2009 16:37:25 GMT

Found this at Dee Ganley's web site and thought it might prove interesting, or useful:

http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/johnfisherstworewardmethod.pdf

Suddenly obsessed..

pandorasdghtr — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 23:43:44 GMT

My 3 yr old Lab/Shepard is suddenly obsessed with me. He completely favors my husband, that is, until this past weekend. Normally I have to do handstands and summersaults just to get his attention, but now, he wont leave me alone. Saturday morning after I woke up, he followed me to the bathroom, then was on my heels since. If I am sitting in at the computer, hes under my feet, and will make little noises reminding me hes there, or if I get up, he follows me. Its like having a second shadow. I think the weirdest behavior is when I am talking to him or scratching him, he shivers. Its in waves too, like he'll shiver for a few seconds, then stop, then start shivering again. He cries when I leave the house and lays with me when I am in bed. This is not normal for him. Is something wrong?

Has anyone used this video?

MalOwner — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 17:46:37 GMT

I was looking into buying the "Really Reliable Recalls" video by Leslie Nelson. Has anyone used this video? I have a malamute puppy (almost 9 months) who isn't a big fan of recalls, so I wanted to get a good method down to help with his training. Let me know what you thought about it, if you have used it! Thanks!

How About Dog IQ?

spiritdogs — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 11:20:05 GMT

Apparently, a longitudinal study of children has found that kids who are spanked as a form of discipline have lower IQ scores. I have said for a long time that I think dogs that are corrected don't offer novel behavior as readily. Could this be a sign that learning is inhibited and the doggy IQ goes down in dogs that receive physical correction versus the dogs that are trained using reward based training?

Here's a link to the information on the kid study: http://www.webmd.com/parenting/news/20090924/kids-who-get-spanked-may-have-lower-iqs

Thoughts?

Is there conflict in balance?

corvus — Wed, 23 Sep 2009 12:19:46 GMT

I've been reading a great book by Dr Grey Stafford about training wild animals and dogs. In the opening chapter he says that you can choose either a relationship based on trust or a relationship based on intimidation/fear with an animal and those are your only choices. He went on to say that to use both punishments and rewards doesn't work well because you can't focus on what an animal is doing right when you are focused on what an animal is doing wrong. Then he just listed all the reasons you shouldn't use punishments and never really dealt with the widely held belief that the fastest training involves punishing and then rewarding, but more rewarding than punishing.

I really appreciated where he was coming from, but I wonder if it is so clearcut with dogs. Dogs are extremely forgiving. They can bounce back from punishments much better than most other animals that I know of. You can do things with dogs that you can't do with other animals and still have a good relationship with them where other animals would not want anything to do with you.

So my question is, do you think there is conflict in being a 'balanced' trainer that uses both rewards and punishments? Lots of people do it and swear by it. For myself, I'm just wary of doing anything to a dog that you can't do to another animal and still expect them to trust you. I like to hold to the precautionary principle by assuming that if it's a bad idea for every other animal on the planet it's a bad idea for dogs as well, but it's not an argument that seems to mean much to people who just work with dogs.

What's the difference between looking for something to punish and something to reward and deciding what to click and what not to click?

Ed Frawley of Leerburg goes positive??

Kim_MacMillan — Sun, 20 Sep 2009 13:30:54 GMT

Soo...I saw this on another one of my lists. It seems that Mr. Frawley has caught on to the power of using markers and rewards/food in training...this year Leerburg has produced two new DVD's:

The Power of Training Dogs with Food, and The Power of Training Dogs with Markers......

Now, I haven't watched them,

From http://leerburg.com/219.htm

I had been training dogs for almost 45 years when I started to learn this system. I felt like a kid in a candy store when I saw how well it worked and the attitude of my dogs that were being trained with markers. The fact is I still feel like that when I see dogs work with markers.

It was not than many years ago (in 1990’s) that I was pretty vocal about how stupid I thought clicker training was. Those comments were made from a position of ignorance and a lack of understanding. Simply put, I was dead wrong and I made those comments without knowing the details of how the system worked. The power of marker training lies in understanding and applying the details.

Since the early 1900’s dog training has been an evolving skill. We only need to look back to the 1970’s and the methods of William Kholer or Winifred Strickland to see how far dog training has improved is the last 25 years. In my opinion no one is ever going to reinvent a better way to train dogs than with markers. The only thing that we will see change will be people who do a better job of applying this method of dog training.

Why is it...

corvus — Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:08:10 GMT

...that you can't ever tell a correction-based trainer that corrections tainted your relationship with one dog without having them accuse you of judging them and their relationship with their dog and the relationship of every other correction-based trainer with their dog? I can't count the times I've not bothered to comment or agreed when a correction-based trainer has told me how positive methods can go wrong or misused, but the moment I open my mouth with a general warning about corrections I need to be told that positive methods didn't work for all these dogs and that I am insinuating that corrections result in diminished trust.

*yawn*

And god forbid I should insult all of dogdom by comparing the way dogs learn with the way every other animal on the planet with a brain learns. No, dogs are dogs, not elephants or lions or dolphins and ESPECIALLY not hares! I know, but if I'm given the option between a method that is used by animal trainers all over the world that works with any species that will interact with you, and a method that works on dogs to varying degrees, sometimes with bad results, I will try the universal one first. It doesn't mean that I think everyone who corrects is stupid, though. Everyone's gotta do what they haveta do to find that zen place with their dogs. Corrections ruined any hope I had for that with Penny. I would hate to see it happen to someone else as well, so I open myself to these stupid attacks by daring to say what happened to me and my relationship with one dog.

I don't care how people want to train their dogs and what they want to build their relationships on, but in my head, punishing an animal you are trying to build trust with doesn't make a great deal of sense. I wouldn't dream of judging other people's relationships regardless of what I think, though. How would I know?

Honestly, to all the people out there who base their training on corrections, I really couldn't care less. You do what you believe is right. But the level of defensiveness I see in these people makes me ever more suspicious that deep down.... Never mind. Not ready for another round of accusations. I'm just tired of being accused of things I would never do. Positive training is an attitude more than a method for me. I'm a long way from where I want to be and working hard to better myself.

recall for dog park when playing to rough

mydog4ever — Sun, 05 Jul 2009 21:45:20 GMT

What is a good way to recall AND work on recalling my dog at the dog park when she is maybe getting a little too rough with another dog. Before things escalate, i would like to train her to come back to me when called, but it is difficult to break her attention with all the distractions and heightened excitement of other dogs. She is in obidence class and listens fairly well but there is always that exception, and i want to know how to work on that or practice and what exactly to do that would work best?!

Edited - Spam

Fondak54 — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 02:08:47 GMT

Edited - Spam

Cesar dog undergoes canine disarming

Kim_MacMillan — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 13:01:10 GMT

http://tiny.cc/nOANA

An unfortunate case of a failed attempt at rehabilitation, leading to not further attempts to change the dog's actual behaviour, but to try to minimize damage it still may try to cause.

Personally, I do not at all like the idea of disarming. It will not stop a dog from biting, it does not change the dog's actual instability or emotions, it does not change behaviour. It feels to me like it's just a band-aid that really doesn't actually benefit the dog much. It may or may not prevent a future euthanasia, but in reality it's not giving the dog a better quality of life in any way.

Questions on Ian Dunbar's book

spiritsmom — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 20:43:38 GMT

I am about 3/4's through Dunbar's puppy book and I absolutely love it! The more I learn about training, though, the more I realize how much I messed up with the ones I have already and have lost. But onward and upwards. This book gives amazing direction on what to do and when it needs to be done when it comes to a puppy. Does he have a book that is just as good for teaching older dogs?

There is always the danger that I will run into an adult rottie that I can't live without while waiting and searching for a puppy. But after doing the reading in this book, it concerns me about teaching bite inhibition, etc, since he gives a specific puppy time limit on when it needs to be done. Same as with peopple and dog socialization.

I know with Kota I did not properly socialize her and she still loved people and other dogs until she was an adult. Then it changed. SO it concerns me when i run into a teenage dog and they say that they love people and dogs. So did Kota at that age, and her lack of socializing caught up with me, or was this just a fluke that she liked them and then changed? Julie

ball-drive

tex123 — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 13:37:30 GMT

Whats the fastest method to teach a dog to retrieve a ball. (increase ball drive) I have new dogs every month with NO BALL DRIVE!, sometimes i wonder if they would chase a rabbit!

I need to get their focus off me and on to the ball. I work with all breeds all ages and i need to develope strong ball drive in just a few days so i can use the ball to increase prey drive. any Ideas?

Trainers, Philosophies and Methods

E-collar discussion

Not scared to be scared

Great Website

Is dominance really so bad?

What She Said...

Animal Cruelty

http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/9802/IL/US/

Control unleashed class #2

WOO HOOO!!

Pulling on Leash - New DVD

Couldn't Have Said it Better...

Beyond Cesar Millan

Ed Frawley of Leerburg goes positive??

Deference, Appeasement & Calming Signals in Training

John Fisher's Two Reward System for Reactive Dogs

Suddenly obsessed..

Has anyone used this video?

How About Dog IQ?

Is there conflict in balance?

Ed Frawley of Leerburg goes positive??

Why is it...

recall for dog park when playing to rough

Edited - Spam

Cesar dog undergoes *canine disarming*

Questions on Ian Dunbar's book

ball-drive

Cesar dog undergoes canine disarming