Nutrition

Re: RE: Nutrition Threads [Clarification]

glenmar — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 12:06:41 GMT

Re: RE: Nutrition Threads [Clarification]

sillysally — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 05:06:58 GMT

What is it with the snippiness....I think everyone needs to step away from the computer, go into the kitchen, and have themselves a drink.....

Re: RE: Nutrition Threads [Clarification]

glenmar — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 01:30:44 GMT

RE: Nutrition Threads [Clarification]

Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:57:12 GMT

I'm trying to take everything as corrective criticism for the sake of helping guests and forum members use the thread as a resource.

I have edited the intial post of the thread in hopes of clarification and proper intention. If people can't understand it by now then you do not have to post (especially if it is to complain, that type of conversation could have been left to PM since I have always said I am open to suggestion).

To myself and other members it is very straight forward; if you would like to participate then list the ingredients you avoid due to personal choice, allergies, intollerence, etc. Remember to be specific so there is no judgement or confusion. You can also participate by asking people why they avoid certain things. This should be a fun, stress free, and resourceful thread. Many people enjoy learning based off of other people's personal experiences. I hope that we can get back to the subject and do this.

I have been exercising my right and curiosity to learn by creating threads (just like everyone else). If you have nutrition questions you can be doing the same thing. If you don't enjoy the 3 new threads I created then you don't have to participate or sabotage them either.

Re: Unacceptable Ingredients

spiritdogs — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:49:23 GMT

Well how about we get back on track. I don't feed any food that contains menadione.

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=menadione

http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/ME/menadione.html

Re: FLAXSEED

cc431 — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:47:11 GMT

brookcove:

By the way, don't bother coming back with the whole, "That science is backed by the pet food industry and is suspect," mantra. The framework of mammalian nutrition lies far outside the pet food industry, spanning human to livestock to exotics to pets. I cannot say the same of a man who writes reams of undocumented opinions promoting his product as a one-size-fits-all approach to every dog on the planet. If anything, there is suspect information there.

You mean there is no such thing as industry propaganda? *EDITED: Personal attack* OK, tell you what, I'll back out because it seems obvious it simply gets people too upset for any discussion. I'll try to stay out of the loop here when it comes to nutrition. Sorry diverse opinion is not welcome.

Re: Unacceptable Ingredients

glenmar — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:40:11 GMT

Re: Unacceptable Ingredients

cc431 — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:29:07 GMT

I think it yet another great thread but together by the OP, very interesting to read and learn what PetsUnited members are doing.

"The intention of this thread is to give guests & members a quick glance at what our dog community doesn't serve and why. Providing and sharing information..."

Nothing wrong with that aspect of sharing information however there is always the potential for problems when it comes to diversity of thought. Some can accept diversity, others have a problem with it (no one in specific, just speaking in general). How boring of a place would it be if we all thought the same in regards to one thing like nutrition? So, everyone doesn't feed X ingredient because of a yuck factor...ho hum...time to move on. Threads such as these invite and welcome discussion, and that is why I give credit to the OP to take the time and some initiative to do it, and it comes from her obvious concern and love from her pets! Keep up the good work. If by any chance there are some that would be opposed to a thread like this, you can really only chalk it up to one reason, they would obviously be opposed to diversity in thinking?

Re: FLAXSEED

brookcove — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:19:09 GMT

My dogs do "tear up the farm for hours" if by that you mean continue to be able to work all day. Livestock work is about endurance, not a "600 yard sprint" (uh, which actually wouldn't qualify as a sprint). My dogs need to do what they do multiple times every day, each day, plus have leftover energy for longer projects like what we'll do today -- vaccinating the first set of lambs, banding all the ram lambs.

Don't imagine I stick all my sheep in a barn or holding facility and then the dog does nothing while I work - I do all my work in an open pasture and my dogs are used to cut out individuals and hold them for me to catch.

Ben's on almost all raw and he doesn't last more than a third of a day. Yes, he's twelve, but he's never had the endurance unless I pace him very carefully, or add something like potato (but potato has health repercussions eventually for him too).

I suspect, all told, my dogs eat fewer carbs than yours. Their kibble is 40% carbs GA. Then they get fifty percent raw meaty bones - usually lamb, pork necks, or meaty chicken quarters (the bone in the one balances the meat and fat of the other). These items add to their caloric intake but add no carbs, reducing their carb intake total to around the teens. If anything my dogs are more in line with the ideal promoted by your mentor, than those who strictly feed his rations.

then we wonder why are dogs become allergy prone.

If this is yet another dig at Ben's allergies, Ben has never been on a food with prebiotics. He's sensitive to most of them. He's only been on four different kibbles his whole life, other than when he was at his breeder.

I have no idea where you get the notion that prebiotic action is bad (mea culpa, yes I do know "where"), but we'll just have to disagree there. Just because one person comes up with notions to sell his own dog food, with no scientific research to back up his statements, that's not enough for me to reject what both research and personal experience (meaning, feeding rescue dogs with a variety of challenges) has shown me to be true.

By the way, don't bother coming back with the whole, "That science is backed by the pet food industry and is suspect," mantra. The framework of mammalian nutrition lies far outside the pet food industry, spanning human to livestock to exotics to pets. I cannot say the same of a man who writes reams of undocumented opinions promoting his product as a one-size-fits-all approach to every dog on the planet. If anything, there is suspect information there.

Re: Unacceptable Ingredients

glenmar — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 13:16:01 GMT

content removed by poster

Re: FLAXSEED

cc431 — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 06:18:12 GMT

brookcove:
Soluble fiber is a prebiotic. That is, it creates conditions in the gut which foster the growth of healthy organisms, which crowd out the bad ones.

Crowds out, surrounds, encapsulates, and impedes the transfer a valuable nutrients entering the bloodstream, and then we wonder why are dogs become allergy prone.

Re: FLAXSEED

cc431 — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 05:02:35 GMT

brookcove:
Isn't rice still grown on plants?

I guess so, but considering what's out there looking at a lot of other diets, I consider that a plus! Just look at the cornucopia of plant matter and veggies and fruits found in many diets today. A plethora of just about everything from apples to yucca. I understand though, and outright despise of ones market approach will often cloud ones judgment.

I thought I'd never feed grain again after going raw, but then I moved to a farm 10 times the size of the old one and the dogs dropped condition like workcamp victims, and I realized the dog stomach had physical limits that could only be overcome sometimes, with carbs.

If it was only that simple. Unfortunately, the nutritional needs of our companion carnivores are much, much more complex that of the humans. It's easy to think of the human athlete pumping up with carbs before the big race for some sustainable energy, but that is for humans and does not work the same way for dogs. We often make mistakes when we start to think we can feed them just like ourselves. I can't take credit for this scenario for it comes from a poster off another list. Your are going to burn in a wood stove and looking for some sustainable heat. Throw some newspaper in there and you get that quick blast of heat and energy, but it burns off very fast....that is your carbs. Cardboard will burn a tad bit longer, more sustainable. You want to achieve a some heat, you need to burn some hardwood, and that is your fat. Dogs sustainable energy is provided through FAT METABOLISM, not carbs Becca. You want your dogs tear up the farm for hours on end and not come off gimpy and limp like 'work camp victims' after just a few 600 yards sprints, try some good old fashioned Pork Fat Lard instead of the veggie mush...you'd be amazed out the results!

Re: FLAXSEED

brookcove — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 19:39:53 GMT

the plan I subscribe to would indicate plant matter is best avoided

Isn't rice still grown on plants?

Flaxseed is a popular ingredient because it's one of the richest sources of stable OFAs. Whole seed is used both because it is more stable in that form, and because the seed also includes beneficial lignons. Lignons are not necessarily a natural major part of a dog's diet, but dogs do not live in a natural state any longer. Like us they are exposed to toxins, pollution, and hormone-treated meat.

Lignons bind with estrogen receptors, blocking harmful hormones. They are antioxidant precursors. There also seems to be some evidence that foods high in lignons help reduce cholesterol - an aging factor in dogs. Flaxseed contains 100 to 200 times the amount of lignons of any other natural source.

However, there are some dogs who cannot tolerate flax. And, although flax is high in ALA, a precursor to the vital OFA-3s DHA and EFA - many dogs find it difficult to process ALA. ALA, incidentally, is the form of OFA that is in all plant-sourced oils, whether organic or not, so those same dogs would still get the most benefit from OFA-balanced animal-sourced fats.

Soluble fiber is a prebiotic. That is, it creates conditions in the gut which foster the growth of healthy organisms, which crowd out the bad ones. In today's world of rampant e-coli and salmonella from confinement raised animals, and fungi contaminating grains (yes, even rice), I think this is a very good idea. If my dog ate nothing but homegrown meat, butchered right under my eyes, I'd say there was no need for such a thing. Otherwise, it gives my dog an extra layer of protection against the ills of modern urban life.

I really am not sure what this thread is about (mostly it seems to be about the OP's intentions in posting it?). But, my philosophy now reflects 14 years of being responsible for the care of my own dogs and dozens of rescues over the years. And what I've learned can be simply summed up as, "Never say, 'Never!'"

Obviously I won't feed my dogs poison - but otherwise I listen to the needs of the individual dog, not my own foibles. I thought I'd never serve my dog a bone, and then a dog named Bubo changed my mind on that. I thought I'd never feed grain again after going raw, but then I moved to a farm 10 times the size of the old one and the dogs dropped condition like workcamp victims, and I realized the dog stomach had physical limits that could only be overcome sometimes, with carbs. I thought I'd never feed corn based foods, or ones with that evil BHA, but then Cord came into my life, who does best on Bil-Jac. I thought I'd never cook for my dogs, when I never cooked for us, and then I came very close to feeding Ben recalled beaver canned food, and I've never bought a can since. Not to say I wouldn't - I buy EP cans for our cat.

Re: FLAXSEED

spiritdogs — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:09:07 GMT

This thread can be extremely resourceful for those in need of this information and for those who READ it in full. By having members of the forum list common food allergies & intollerence it can help guests/members who are struggling with diet issues to go "oh hey I never thought of that ingredient... I'll try to take out that." Like I said I wish I had this type of direct resource when I was struggling with my own dog's diet issues.

People often make assumptions, and they begin to manipulate their dogs' diets (or training regimens, or exercise routines, etc.) based on partial or even erroneous, information. In my view, if you feel your dog may have a food allergy, it's probably easier to have the dog allergy tested than to diddle around changing one ingredient or another until you haphazardly find the one that is upsetting the dog (and, what if there's more than one item that is a problem?). Since inhalant allergies are far more common in dogs than food allergies, and since it is difficult to determine, without a strict elimination diet, what the food allergy might be, testing makes the most sense, despite the expense, which is what most people are trying to avoid by diddling around. Save the dog some angst and see the vet, is my advice. Then, you know for sure, and can take immediate steps to prevent the allergic reaction.

If you know much about wild canines, you understand that the diet is not just made up of meat, it also includes berries, and other things that are non-meat items. But, dogs don't eat a whole lot of CEREAL, so it would seem logical to use foods that contain quality protein sources, and maybe some other things that a canine just might forage for on its own, but not a lot of fillers that humans produce in factories to reduce the cost of the dog food on the next supermarket shelf from their competitors. There is a wonderful site, called The Dog Food Project, that is written by a former idog member, which is worth a look see.

The fact that one dog is allergic to a particular protein source does not mean that it is inappropriate for other dogs. Simple, right? So, what's the big deal? I'd be more worried about the quality of the protein sources that I can feed my dogs, than worrying about the one I no longer feed, because what is inappropriate for your dog might be just fine for mine, and vice versa. This is a non-argument, and a completely individual matter.

Re: FLAXSEED

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 03:07:16 GMT

Thanks for the awesome advice Charlie! Good to keep in mind... :o)