puppy mills - growing problem

• 10-08-2009 9:05 PM

  In reply to AgileGSD

  erica1989 Joined on 02-21-2007 Clearwater, Florida Posts 4,362 Points 410

  Re: puppy mills - growing problem Reply Contact I guess that's what makes me different, Agile. See - I'm NOT anti-breeding, had you bothered to read anything I've posted - you'd know that. I'm not anti-ownership - why else would I own animals? You're jumping to an awful lot of conclusions, but I guess I should expect that. You're only reading the parts you want to read - and not looking at the whole picture. I do not, and have never, supported HSUS or PETA - in anything. I'm in this fight for my 101 dogs that were neglected and abused, several to DEATH. And for Waylon. I guess until this affects YOU - you wont care, and for that - I feel very, very sorry for you.

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• 10-08-2009 10:40 PM

  In reply to erica1989

  AgileGSD Joined on 09-16-2007 Posts 1,032 Points 65

  Re: puppy mills - growing problem Reply Contact erica1989: You're jumping to an awful lot of conclusions, but I guess I should expect that. You're only reading the parts you want to read - and not looking at the whole picture. I do not, and have never, supported HSUS or PETA - in anything.  But you posted an article which provides, as a sole resource a HSUS website. The article had an anti-breeder tone, implying that having a genetic health issue is a "surefire sign of a puppy mill puppy". By promoting such viewpoints, in order to further your own cause you are promoting AR and in this case, HSUS. erica1989: I guess until this affects YOU - you wont care, and for that - I feel very, very sorry for you.   Why does it always comes to "you don't care about these poor dogs like I do!!!!!!"? I have already said (meant) that the situation with the liver shunt puppy was sad all around. Still, the problem is not one which can be screened for, is only "suspected" to be genetic as certain breeds are more prone to it and has an unknown mode of inheritance. IOWs there isn't much a breeder can do to guarantee that they will never produce a puppy with a liver shunt. Yet in this case, the situation is being used to pass "more laws!!!!" to regulate dog breeding, supposedly to stop "puppy mills". Yet it appears that the current regulations are not being enforced properly and no one questions that? Has HSUS been involved with writing these new laws?   AR is not just a threat to breeders and to purebred dogs but a threat to pet ownership in America. I guess until this affects YOU - you won't care, and for that I feel very, very sorry for you.

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• 10-09-2009 2:45 PM

  In reply to AgileGSD

  Pwca Joined on 09-09-2006 Dallas, Texas Posts 1,485 Points 310

  Re: puppy mills - growing problem Reply Contact  I have to agree with AgileGSD here. I know reputable breeders who have produced HD (in GSDs) and elbow dysplasia (in a lab). Should those breeders just euthanize the puppies and pretend they never existed? I don't think that's humane, but I also don't think a breeder can guarantee every puppy will be totally perfect- Breeding isn't like that. Too many things are polygenetic or suspected to be genetic, or have environmental factors as well. Cait & critters Kaylee (rough collie) LIzzie (german spitz)

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• 10-09-2009 3:34 PM

  In reply to Pwca

  stardog85 Joined on 09-10-2007 South Carolina, USA Posts 2,347 Points 235

  Re: puppy mills - growing problem Reply Contact A lot of the USDA regs would be great if they were enforced, but that department is waaaay underfunded and understaffed.  Without the manpower to enforce the current laws, you'll have a ton of issues like what's been described on this thread. I believe in the last few years there was at least one unfunded mandate that was trying to target mills but there were no inspectors to implement it - THAT is the problem. Additionally, there is a major loophole in the commercial breeding laws last I heard: if you sell direct to the public you do not fall under USDA regulation, *only* if you sell to a third party like a broker or petstore. eta: there are 102 inspectors for all qualifying animal facilities in the ENTIRE US - that should outrage everyone!  Perhaps some of our energies should go into convincing the government that upping enforcement funding is the way to go as a first step in combating mills?  USDA Animal Care's annual reports can be quite interesting - it really highlights all the things they do and the immense amount of tasks they are supposed to handle. Erin, the Amazing Maggie Mae, Ziva the Wonder Dog, and Kestrel the Up and Coming "Always keep one still, secret spot where dreams may go." - Louise Priscoll

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• 10-09-2009 6:21 PM

  In reply to Pwca

  Liesje Joined on 03-02-2007 Posts 9,906 Points 655

  Re: puppy mills - growing problem Reply Contact Pwca:  I have to agree with AgileGSD here. I know reputable breeders who have produced HD (in GSDs) and elbow dysplasia (in a lab). Should those breeders just euthanize the puppies and pretend they never existed? I don't think that's humane, but I also don't think a breeder can guarantee every puppy will be totally perfect- Breeding isn't like that. Too many things are polygenetic or suspected to be genetic, or have environmental factors as well.   Not to mention that not all HD is crippling and it is only one factor.  Personally I'd rather have a dog with mild HD than a dog with an unsound temperament.  The former is easier to manage and actually healthier for the dog's overall wellbeing. I would like to see parent clubs take up this torch and set higher standards for breeding and being on their breeder lists.  I know so-called reputable breeders who have high up positions in breed organizations that are really anything but ethical.  The WDA recently suspended and fined a very prominent breeder for dying dogs' hair, breaking their tails, and surgically implanting testicles.  But again, this assumes that buyers really care about the quality of their dogs and the ethics of the breeder....and too many buyers simply don't. http://vankelderdogs.dutchbingo.net http://www.schhmi.com

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• 10-09-2009 8:11 PM

  In reply to AgileGSD

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 11,723 Points 1,020

  Re: puppy mills - growing problem Reply Contact  I agree that certain ailments cannot be predicted.  Two dogs with good hips can produce a dog with HD.  But, that isn't the same as saying that it's ok to operate a volume puppy producing operation that breeds females too early and way too often, separates pups too soon so the shipping schedules can be met, overlooks the importance of sanitation and normal play among the puppies, breeds without any concern for TRYING to scan for genetic disorders, and is only concerned with the pup for the 72 hours after sale.  These are not good breeding practices, and volume farming of dogs leads to the same kind of abuses that are common in any type of factory farming of livestock. The difference, however, is that these puppies are ending up in people's homes with their kids.  I realize that certain organizations would like to limit pet ownership, and I do not support them.  However, it is the very mills and byb's who flood the market with dogs that come from questionable breedings, filthy situations, and environments that make them a temperamental nightmare, that are fueling these organizations' zealousness.  If breeders don't police themselves, and they won't, human nature being what it is, then these orgs will succeed.  But, it won't be the fault of those who simply saw disgusting and disreputable practices and railed against them, it will be the greed of the mega breeders. Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 20 1/2 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog In memory of Mike, please become an organ donor today. "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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• 10-10-2009 12:47 AM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  AgileGSD Joined on 09-16-2007 Posts 1,032 Points 65

  Re: puppy mills - growing problem Reply Contact spiritdogs: I realize that certain organizations would like to limit pet ownership, and I do not support them.  However, it is the very mills and byb's who flood the market with dogs that come from questionable breedings, filthy situations, and environments that make them a temperamental nightmare, that are fueling these organizations' zealousness.    Not true. These organizations simply use such scenerios ("puppy mills", dog fighting, animal abuse) as a chance to fundraise and push for laws to further their agenda. The AR mindset is that breeding dogs is in itself unethical, greedy and done only by the worst sort of people. Go on some AR message boards some time and see for yourself what the opinion is. They are not just against commercial breeders, they are against ALL breeders. They have targeted commercial breeders because it was easy to get pet owners, rescue/shelter workers and breeders wishing to be seen as "responsible" to side with them in a fight against "puppy mills". Even the term "puppy mill" is an AR term that has no real meaning, people use it to describe all commercial breeders, "bad breeders", breeders who neglect their dogs, breeders who "breed too much", breeders who produce dogs with genetic problems or a breeder that ones disagrees with for any reason. Divide and conquer. Turn breeders against each other, get breeders themselves to support anti-breeder laws in attempt to separate themselves from the "bad breeders".   This has proven to be very successful and it is a large part of why MSN laws and anti-breeding laws are being put in place across the US. Breeders can't police themselves to protect against the AR movement and it is not the fault of breeders that AR has become what it has become. A large part of the AR movement is based on the idea that breeding (and owning) domestic animals is, itself wrong to do. That is what is fueling these organization's zealousness. That is why it is a bad idea to support these organizations, even if you feel they are right on some issues. Because the time will come when you become the target, regardless of who you are.

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• 10-10-2009 11:38 PM

  In reply to AgileGSD

  erica1989 Joined on 02-21-2007 Clearwater, Florida Posts 4,362 Points 410

  Re: puppy mills - growing problem Reply Contact could you maybe drop the AR stuff? as this is NOT what my post was about? Bad breeding, BYB's and puppy mills are COMPLETELY different things. Puppy mills - are puppy farms. Where dogs are bred, over and over again - producing as many pups as possibly for profit. No regard is given to temperment, health, and the overall safety of the pet. These 'breeders' do not care where their pet ends up - as long as they get their check they are happy. If you want to breed - FINE! But do it right. Do the proper tests, breed the proper tempernent and care about your dogs. But to treat a dog like a vending machine - to pop out a pup whenever they need it is WRONG, and I don't care how you look at it. If you want to breed - that is your business, and I'm not here to tell you not to. Breeding is not for me, I don't have the desire to do it - nor the knowhow. I'm very content with my shelter mutts. But if you are going to breed - be responsible about it. If you think I'm posting just to fundraise - then you are completely off your rocker. I'm here to educate - just like everyone has been talking about. These are serious issues that cannot be swept under a rug. These houses are HORRIBLE - and the smell lingers for WEEKS on the animals. Bath after bath does not wash it away. Urine stains on the paws stick for MONTHS. Broken bones, dead dogs, and dogs with splayed feet from standing on metal cages for years are proof that people like this need to be stopped. If you think this is ok - then I really encourage you to go with a rescue to raid one of these houses. THEN tell me it's ok - and all an 'AR movement/scam'

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• 10-11-2009 1:52 AM

  In reply to erica1989

  Love7735 Joined on 10-11-2009 Posts 3 Points 5

  Re: puppy mills - growing problem Reply Contact I believe my baby came from a puppy mill. I got him from a pet store in NJ. He ended up getting meningitis relapse a total of 3 x's in 2 years. Hes a very shy dog, afraid of noises and people- mostly men. I got him when he was about 8 weeks old. Im scared to think what would have happened to him if I didnt adopt him. Its such a shame what some people put these poor babies through.   -------------------------------------   vote for tucker!

  Post Points: 0

• 10-11-2009 8:32 AM

  In reply to AgileGSD

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 11,723 Points 1,020

  Re: puppy mills - growing problem Reply Contact AgileGSD: spiritdogs: I realize that certain organizations would like to limit pet ownership, and I do not support them.  However, it is the very mills and byb's who flood the market with dogs that come from questionable breedings, filthy situations, and environments that make them a temperamental nightmare, that are fueling these organizations' zealousness.    Not true. These organizations simply use such scenerios ("puppy mills", dog fighting, animal abuse) as a chance to fundraise and push for laws to further their agenda. The AR mindset is that breeding dogs is in itself unethical, greedy and done only by the worst sort of people. Go on some AR message boards some time and see for yourself what the opinion is. They are not just against commercial breeders, they are against ALL breeders. They have targeted commercial breeders because it was easy to get pet owners, rescue/shelter workers and breeders wishing to be seen as "responsible" to side with them in a fight against "puppy mills". Even the term "puppy mill" is an AR term that has no real meaning, people use it to describe all commercial breeders, "bad breeders", breeders who neglect their dogs, breeders who "breed too much", breeders who produce dogs with genetic problems or a breeder that ones disagrees with for any reason. Divide and conquer. Turn breeders against each other, get breeders themselves to support anti-breeder laws in attempt to separate themselves from the "bad breeders".   This has proven to be very successful and it is a large part of why MSN laws and anti-breeding laws are being put in place across the US. Breeders can't police themselves to protect against the AR movement and it is not the fault of breeders that AR has become what it has become. A large part of the AR movement is based on the idea that breeding (and owning) domestic animals is, itself wrong to do. That is what is fueling these organization's zealousness. That is why it is a bad idea to support these organizations, even if you feel they are right on some issues. Because the time will come when you become the target, regardless of who you are.   You don't have to lecture me on supporting those entities, because I do not - however, I also do not support unregulated (due to insufficient staffing or any other reason) volume breeding of dogs in filthy facilities or with no consideration of their health and well being.  I think that your points about AR are well taken, but you have to admit that not enough is being done to help the situation of dogs who find themselves in those disgusting and disreputable facilities.  Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 20 1/2 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog In memory of Mike, please become an organ donor today. "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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• 10-11-2009 8:47 AM

  In reply to erica1989

  HOTTDOG456 Joined on 10-11-2009 Posts 11 Points 5

  Re: puppy mills - growing problem Reply Contact  I am totally against PIPPY MILLS .I just bought a puppy from one in Lancaster Pa.He was shut down the pup I resced was a lucky one.She is a beaut,Biewer Terrier.This man has been arreseted,I am a breeder ,but responsable.dogs do not deserve to be treated like lab rats in a cage sacked on top of each other.My dos are free roamed on a 2000 ac farm on a mountain .I also rescue from the pound.The people who get pets from me must sign a spay/neut contract then I call in a few months to check.Being a resposable Pet owner is teaching the world

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• 10-11-2009 9:36 AM

  In reply to HOTTDOG456

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 11,723 Points 1,020

  Re: puppy mills - growing problem Reply Contact If you are a breeder, I would hope that you have no plans on breeding your puppy mill rescue Biewer.  And, I really hope you aren't planning to breed it back to a Yorkie.   Also, it might help if you turn on your spell check or type a little slower:-)   Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 20 1/2 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog In memory of Mike, please become an organ donor today. "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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• 10-11-2009 9:46 AM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  BEVOLASVEGAS Joined on 07-11-2006 Texas Posts 7,928 Points 940	Re: puppy mills - growing problem Reply Contact spiritdogs: If you are a breeder, I would hope that you have no plans on breeding your puppy mill rescue Biewer.  And, I really hope you aren't planning to breed it back to a Yorkie.   Also, it might help if you turn on your spell check or type a little slower:-)   Don't hold your breathe Anne.  This person also breeds "Imperial" Shih Tzus.  Amanda
  	Post Points: 0

• 10-11-2009 10:33 AM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  AgileGSD Joined on 09-16-2007 Posts 1,032 Points 65

  Re: puppy mills - growing problem Reply Contact spiritdogs: You don't have to lecture me on supporting those entities, because I do not - however, I also do not support unregulated (due to insufficient staffing or any other reason) volume breeding of dogs in filthy facilities or with no consideration of their health and well being.  I think that your points about AR are well taken, but you have to admit that not enough is being done to help the situation of dogs who find themselves in those disgusting and disreputable facilities.    I agree and did question why no one is trying to get better enforcement of current laws concerning high volume breeders. The answer is because that isn't what makes HSUS and PETA money and that doesn't help further their agenda.

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• 10-11-2009 10:47 AM

  In reply to erica1989

  AgileGSD Joined on 09-16-2007 Posts 1,032 Points 65

  Re: puppy mills - growing problem Reply Contact erica1989: could you maybe drop the AR stuff? as this is NOT what my post was about?   You posted an article that included AR propaganda that was intended to be taken as fact and influence people reading it to support the cause. The article included a link to an AR website portrayed as a good resource for people wanting to learn more about the subject.   erica1989: If you think I'm posting just to fundraise - then you are completely off your rocker.   I didn't suggest you were trying to fundraise but the the article you posted certainly can help fundraise for HSUS. Their Stop Puppy Mills website which was linked to in the article, has DONATE NOW as the top button of their menu. erica1989:  These are serious issues that cannot be swept under a rug. These houses are HORRIBLE - and the smell lingers for WEEKS on the animals. Bath after bath does not wash it away. Urine stains on the paws stick for MONTHS. Broken bones, dead dogs, and dogs with splayed feet from standing on metal cages for years are proof that people like this need to be stopped. If you think this is ok - then I really encourage you to go with a rescue to raid one of these houses. THEN tell me it's ok - and all an 'AR movement/scam' There are already regulations in place concerning everything you just brought up. Instead of pushing for "more laws!!!" and helping further HSUS and other AR orgs agendas, why not push for better enforcement of the current regulations?

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