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pekingese urination problems

Last post 05-27-2009 11:18 AM by calliecritturs. 33 replies.
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  • 05-04-2009 11:07 PM

    pekingese urination problems

    ok so i have encountered so many problems with my dog ever since i adopted her 2 years ago. she is now 3 years old. when i first got her i crated trained her and she constantly kept urinating in her crate. i finally took her to the vet and i found out that she had a liver shunt which is a blood vessel that lets the blood bypass the liver and therefore not allowing proper toxin control. she got surgery and was fine for a couple months so i started to continue her crate training but she then started showing symptoms again. this time it was struvite stones. the vet recommended hill's prescription food and it worked for a while so i started to crate train again but then the stones still came back! i read online that low quality foods and letting dogs hold their urine are major factors in struvite formation. maybe its the combination of the hill's prescription food (low quality food) and her crate training. so currently, after her stones pass, im going to start giving her a high quality food such as innova (all natural dog food) and a raw diet supplement and stopping her crate training. im going to add cranberry capsules and fish oil also to help with the bacteria. what do u guys think? am i on the right track?

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  • 05-04-2009 11:29 PM In reply to calliecritturs

    pekingese urination problems

     ok so i have encountered so many problems with my dog ever since i adopted her 2 years ago. she is now 3 years old. when i first got her i crated trained her and she constantly kept urinating in her crate. i finally took her to the vet and i found out that she had a liver shunt which is a blood vessel that lets the blood bypass the liver and therefore not allowing proper toxin control. she got surgery and was fine for a couple months so i started to continue her crate training but she then started showing symptoms again. this time it was struvite stones. the vet recommended hill's prescription food and it worked for a while so i started to crate train again but then the stones still came back! i read online that low quality foods and letting dogs hold their urine are major factors in struvite formation. maybe its the combination of the hill's prescription food (low quality food) and her crate training. so currently, after her stones pass, im going to start giving her a high quality food such as innova (all natural dog food) and a raw diet supplement and stopping her crate training. im going to add cranberry capsules and fish oil also to help with the bacteria. what do u guys think? am i on the right track?

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  • 05-04-2009 11:52 PM In reply to calliecritturs

    Re: pekingese urination problems

    I'm correcting  this -- I was obviously FAR too tired when I wrote this last night.  Struvite stones ARE the ones triggered mostly by too alkaline ph in the urine (needs acid) and they are the easier of the two to get rid of.  My original post here was absolutely wrong.

    Cranberry helps with urinary tract *infections* (which an infection is NOT "stones" -- two completely different things) -- because cranberry is largely glucose.  Glucose will bond with infection cells and help them pass thru the body and NOT stick to the urinary tract walls.

    Cranberry is slightly acidic.  Not hugely so but it would be a MILD help for the a dog with struvites. 

    The better alternative, if you are dealing with infection (NOT just stones -- if stones are the *only* problem that's a whole other thing) -- but try D-Mannose.  It is magnesium in the form of a sugar -- yes, another kind of glucose. 

    It's a supplement -- my favorite brand is NOW Brand Foods -- but you can find it all over the place online.  It's not cheap -- but it really helps with recurring infections and it's not acidic.

    However -- I would still caution you in a huge way **not** to do this alone.  Why not contact someone like Monica Segal (http://www.doggiedietician.com ) and get the right diet for your dog.  Sabine Contreras (Mordanna -- and I know folks on here have her url) is also very good.  They will write a balanced diet that takes such medical issues as struvites into account and I believe both of them will work with a raw diet if that's your preference.  I know Monica pretty well and I know she has the medical background to work with struvite stones and help you plan an optimum diet that will work AND be balanced. (I'm not recommending Monica over Sabine .. I just know Monica better is all -- both are highly qualified and very good.)

    I don't blame you for wanting to do better food-wise than Hills.  But struvites is a pretty severe health issue and you really must make sure you do something balanced or you'll worsen it rather than making it better.

    You can easily acidify the diet by even adding some tomato juice to the food, or pineapple or such.  You can also give a bit of Vit C (ester C is normally pretty well tolerated but start LOW and increase gradually to make sure you don't cause diarreah).

     

    My other suggestion would be to pursue something like TCVM (traditional Chinese veterinary medicine) -- there are things that can be done with acupuncture and Chinese herbals to help reduce the tendency to develope those struvite crystals.  I have one dog myself, who is already prone to struvites and she's just a year old.


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  • 05-05-2009 2:30 AM In reply to calliecritturs

    Re: pekingese urination problems

     i thought struvite stones are formed in alkaline urine in the bladder? so wouldnt you want to acidify the urine? please correct me if im wrong because im just taking info from my vet and numerous internet sources. also, rather than making a balanced diet from a pet nutritionalist, what if i just stick to the innova and just give my dog raw treats (i.e. meat, bones, veggies) every now and then? i also plan on occassionally feeding the natural balance semi moist rolls because they are also high in quality and it is one of her favorites. im assuming that the innova and natural balance rolls will take care of her main nutrition and the raw food will be a supplement. i was told that feeding high quality foods will fix the struvite formation. btw, shes passing the stones right now and im hoping she's almost done.

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  • 05-05-2009 3:00 AM In reply to rygar126

    Re: pekingese urination problems

    The usual formula for the formation of struvite crystals is:

    urea in the urine (from the breakdown of proteins) 
              + urease (by-product of bacteria) 
              + other compounds in the urine
              + high pH (from chemical reactions started by urea + urease) 
              + magnesium  --->  struvite crystals (magnesium ammonium phosphate crystals)

    The most important thing is to get rid of the bacteria.  Did the vet do a sterile urine draw and culture for the best antibiotic?

    Making a dog hold her urine for too long can be bad because it encourages the growth of bacteria.  Once an infection is established it can make urinating painful and cause the dog to restrict her fluid intake which further encourages bacteria growth.  Small amounts of low-sodium chicken broth in her water can encourage her to drink more.  Monitor her fluid intake.

    Cranberry will help to slightly acidify (slightly lower the pH of) the urine and will help to keep the bacteria from sticking to the bladder wall.  NOW's D-Mannose (capsules or powder) is even better than plain cranberry capsules.  http://www.nowfoods.com/Products/ProductsbyCategory/Category/M040537.htm?cat=Minerals

    Acidophilus has been proven to help fight urinary tract infections.  It will also help to prevent bacterial overgrowths in the digestive tract when antibiotics are used. 

    Here is a good article on the formation of struvite crystals (from the Drs. Foster and Smith web site):
    http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2114&aid=400

    After an initial culture I would start with cranberry (or D-Mannose) and acidophilus.  Next I would treat with antibiotics and repeat the culture until I got a clear culture.  At that point you could restart crate training being careful not to leave her in the crate too long.  You can get test strips at a pharmacy to regularly check the pH of her urine.  The pH will vary some during the day, but if it gets too high, an infection is likely.

    A good diet does help to strengthen the immune system.  Acidifying the diet can help to dissolve stones.  See this B-Naturals' newsletter:  http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/bladder-stones-crystals/

    An important thing to remember is that pH does not cause struvite crystals/stones any more than a correct baking temperature causes cake.  If the right materials are present, a high pH allows struvite crystals/stones to form from those materials.  If the right materials are present, the correct baking temperature will allow a cake to form from cake batter.  Temperature and pH are both environmental variables.

    Other resources:

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/K9kidneydiet/
    "This list is for people wanting to learn more about nutrition for dogs with kidney problems such as stones, crystals, renal failure and other urinary and bladder problems. Some examples of discussion on this list include recipe sharing, use of vitamins and minerals, use of herbs and herbal tinctures and any other nutritional support for kidney care."

    Canine Nutritionist:
    http://www.monicasegal.com/
    http://www.monicasegal.com/catalog/product.php?cPath=25&products_id=101  (book)

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  • 05-05-2009 11:42 AM In reply to calliecritturs

    • krispie
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    • Joined on 09-10-2007
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    Re: pekingese urination problems

    Our bichon/shih tzu is prone to struvite bladder stones. Whe we adopted her she had a bladder full of large stones which required sugery. It is my understanding that struvite stones are caused by specific urinary tract infections. We have her urine checked every three months including having it cultured. She is also on Hills C/D diet to keep the PH balanced. When we went off the diet her PH became too alkaline and she had crystals in her urine.  We went back on the perscription diet and are vigilante about having her urine checked to make sure she does not have a UTI.  She is fine now.  Best of luck.

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  • 05-05-2009 7:39 PM In reply to janet_rose

    Re: pekingese urination problems

    ok i understand now. its the by-product of the bacteria that is the main factor. so im currently waiting for my vet to get back to me about her urine culture. it looks like shes passed most of the stones now and im looking into d-mannose. do u know the dosage for a 12 lbs dog? also, b-natural says to feed acidic food like chicken, beef, eggs, protein etc and dr fosters and smith says low protein. im kinda confused. wouldnt the anti-biotics destroy the good bacteria provided by the acidophilus?

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  • 05-05-2009 8:59 PM In reply to rygar126

    Re: pekingese urination problems

    rygar126:
    ok i understand now. its the by-product of the bacteria that is the main factor.

    Struvite stones normally form when all of the following are present in sufficient quantities: urea (from protein), urease (from bacteria), high pH, and magnesium.  Usually the bacteria and/or the high pH are the easiest to eliminate.  In difficult cases, one may have to lower the dietary protein or magnesium.

    I would trust B-Naturals over Drs. Foster and Smith, but in this case both are right.  It is a matter of what you try first.

    rygar126:
    wouldnt the anti-biotics destroy the good bacteria provided by the acidophilus?

    Yes!  That is why you give acidophilus 2-3 hours after each dose of the antibiotic.  The acidophilus will help to prevent bacterial overgrowths until the normal bacteria balance is reestablished after the antibiotics are stopped.  Since the antibiotic will also effect the acidophilus, you have to keep giving it. 

    Acidophilus is relatively cheap and is available in a freeze-dried, stable form.  If one can say that about any other normal, canine intestinal bacteria, I haven't heard about it.  Other canine probiotics (good bacteria) are available, but they are more expensive, so if I used them, I would wait until after stopping the antibiotics. 

    rygar126:
    looking into d-mannose. do u know the dosage for a 12 lbs dog?

    I would assume that the human dosage is for an 150lb human and go from there.  I'll see if I can find anything more specific.

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  • 05-05-2009 10:12 PM In reply to janet_rose

    Re: pekingese urination problems

     ok so i just bought the now d-mannose pills it says 1-3 pills a day so im thinking 8-20% of the powder in the pill. i also got an omega 3 by renew life and healthy digestion also by renew life (it contains acidophilus). do u think the "healthy digestion" is ok or should i have gotten the isolated acidophilus. also, i was thinking i should i just just feed the hills s/d rx food until all the stones are gone? or should i continue with the innova?

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  • 05-05-2009 11:14 PM In reply to rygar126

    Re: pekingese urination problems

    rygar126:
    do u think the "healthy digestion" is ok or should i have gotten the isolated acidophilus.

    I am not familiar with that product or the amount of acidophilus in it.

    rygar126:
    also, i was thinking i should i just just feed the hills s/d rx food until all the stones are gone? or should i continue with the innova?

    Sorry, that is a vet question.  I don't know the culture results, the current urine pH level, the rate at which the stones have been dissolving, or even if stones are still forming. 

    However, unless the vet OKed stopping the Hills S/D, I personally would continue until the stones are gone.  I imagine that the Hills S/D has a low level of magnesium and is designed to produce a low urea level, but I have never asked a vet about that.

    Have you gotten pH test strips yet?  I would keep a regular chart for the next few months.  Note on the chart when you get a clear culture.

    On a different subject:  Do you keep a copy of all test results?  Do you have them xerox the vet's chart after each visit?  Do you have them tape/glue the labels from each injection in your dog's chart? 

    This type of thing is a great help if you move or if you have to go to an emergency vet.

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  • 05-05-2009 11:38 PM In reply to calliecritturs

    Re: pekingese urination problems

    rygar126:
     i thought struvite stones are formed in alkaline urine in the bladder? so wouldnt you want to acidify the urine?

    You're right and I was just plain too tired to be coherent.  I've corrected the above now.  You are CORRECT -- it's struvites that grow in urine that's not acid enough.

    Now -- D-Mannose.  The best D-Mannose is in powder form -- if you got capsules then I'm going to guess you maybe bought the Cranactin + D-Mannose that Solaray has?

    It will do to start.  But it's not the best.  It's formulated for humans and it's one particular thing that doesn't translate well somehow.  It's just not the right ratio of cranberry to d-mannose.

    For a little dog like that you don't want more than 1 cranberry pill a day.  But d-Mannose?  if it was the powder form I'd give a packed 1/4 - 1/2 teas. twice a day (this stuff really IS just like confectioner's sugar -- once you see it you'll understand why I say "packed")

     Any  extra is merely going to rinse out of the body -- it's just plain not absorbed (which is why it works actually). 

     


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  • 05-05-2009 11:45 PM In reply to rygar126

    Re: pekingese urination problems

    rygar126:
    do u know the dosage for a 12 lbs dog? also, b-natural says to feed acidic food like chicken, beef, eggs, protein etc and dr fosters and smith says low protein. im kinda confused. wouldnt the anti-biotics destroy the good bacteria provided by the acidophilus?

    I corrected my brain-dead post in your other thread.  I was just plain too tired to be coherent and got my stones "switched".  I apologize.

    If you have PLAIN d-mannose then give 1/4 - 1/2 teas. twice a day in food.  It's NOT absorbed by the body (which is why it works -- it simply bonds to infection and carries it out of the body not giving it a chance TO stick to the urinary tract walls).  But if the capsules you have are part cranberry (Solaray makes one that has cranberry and d-mannose combined) -- then only give one and try to find some plain d-mannose to ADD.  For some reason the Cranactin + d-mannose pill of Solarays just doesn't work very well.  The ratio of cranberry to d-mannose just isn't right somehow (at least it didn't work well on Billy).

    As far as a probiotic -- the one you have is probably fine.  BUT you gotta give your probiotic at LEAST two hours "off" from the antibiotic.  Or you're right -- the antibiotic will simply kill the probiotic.  So you give the probiotic in between doses of antibiotic.

    If you want to easily add acid -- add some tomato juice or tomato to the food (you can use canned tomato -- salt free if you can find it) or even crushed pineapple or applesauce to increase the acidity. 

    Avoid chicken -- For those of us who use the TCVM (traditional Chinese veterinary medicine) -- chicken tends to be a "hot" foot (that's TCVM lingo) that encourages infection. 

    The contradiction you're seeing between amounts of protein is simply the difference in medical opinion.  some say "keep the protein low because it's less of a stress on the kidneys.  Other practitioners say it's not a problem.

     


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  • 05-05-2009 11:50 PM In reply to rygar126

    Re: pekingese urination problems

    In the future you might consider:

    HAC Kidni Biotic-Cleanse & Rejuvenate  (herbal alternative to antibiotics)
    http://www.b-naturals.com/hac-kidni-biotic-1-oz-p-33

     

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  • 05-06-2009 12:46 AM In reply to janet_rose

    Re: pekingese urination problems

    janet_rose:

    In the future you might consider:

    HAC Kidni Biotic-Cleanse & Rejuvenate  (herbal alternative to antibiotics)
    http://www.b-naturals.com/hac-kidni-biotic-1-oz-p-33

     

     so i bought this product. i assume i treat this is as an antibiotic and give it as recommended by you guys. 

     

    janet_rose:

    I am not familiar with that product or the amount of acidophilus in it.

    its 1 of 10 ingredients in a probiotic blend of 1 billion CFU so the amount of acidophilus per 2 tablets is 100 million CFU.

     

    janet_rose:

    However, unless the vet OKed stopping the Hills S/D, I personally would continue until the stones are gone.  I imagine that the Hills S/D has a low level of magnesium and is designed to produce a low urea level, but I have never asked a vet about that.

    yeah youre right i should put her back on the s/d. i'll feed it until shes back to normal and then put her on a better diet and monitor her urine levels.

     

    janet_rose:

    On a different subject:  Do you keep a copy of all test results?  Do you have them xerox the vet's chart after each visit?  Do you have them tape/glue the labels from each injection in your dog's chart?

    no i dont but i'll get a whole copy of her chart next visit. shes due for xrays but its pointless cause i already know she has stones. oh and yes i have ph strips, ill start monitoring tomorrow.

    calliecritturs:

    Now -- D-Mannose.  The best D-Mannose is in powder form -- if you got capsules then I'm going to guess you maybe bought the Cranactin + D-Mannose that Solaray has?

    this quote is from the same thread i posted in the disease and illness section. i have d-mannose by Now. the capsules have powder in them so no its not the cranactin. i started the d-mannose today.  

    calliecritturs:

    Avoid chicken -- For those of us who use the TCVM (traditional Chinese veterinary medicine) -- chicken tends to be a "hot" foot (that's TCVM lingo) that encourages infection. 

    hmmm...maybe the chicken jerky caused her stone formation. she was on natural balance and after introducing the chicken jerky was when she starting showing stones.

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    so in conclusion, i will keep feeding the s/d along with the probiotcs, d-mannose and the omega 3. i have some left over amoxicillin from her past visit so i'll give that 2 hours prior or after the d-mannose. since she has a hard time with taking down pills do u think putting it in fruit will interfere with the dissolution of the stones?

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  • 05-06-2009 1:07 AM In reply to rygar126

    Re: pekingese urination problems

    rygar126:
    i have some left over amoxicillin from her past visit so i'll give that 2 hours prior or after the d-mannose. since she has a hard time with taking down pills do u think putting it in fruit will interfere with the dissolution of the stones?

    I don't think a little fruit would be a problem.

    I am concerned that you have "left over amoxicillin".  If one doesn't finish a course of antibiotics, you risk creating a version of the bacteria that is resistant to the antibiotic and vets don't normally prescribe extra pills.  You have leftovers because ...?

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