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"Mood" Aggression, Food Aggression, Guarding

Last post 03-06-2009 12:20 PM by JD_Shelties. 7 replies.
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  • 02-24-2009 1:08 PM

    "Mood" Aggression, Food Aggression, Guarding

    My little man does wonderful with dogs in the house. No food agression and always ready to wrestle and play.

    Outside of the home (when I'm doing puppy classes) after about 2 - 3 hours of training there is always social play time for puppies and younger dogs. And boy is he cranky! He's only 16 weeks old so I make sure to bring his crate along so he can go lay down when he needs to, and by the time it's play time he is very grumpy. Sometimes in the beginning he'll play with his favorite buddies, fetch the ball, and have a blast! But then after a little while it turns into errrrrrrrrr out my face... errrrrrrrr...... Lots of warning signals, showing teeth, launching forward if the dogs get too close or annoy him too much ("back off!" type additude). One time a Chihuahua really must of upset him because he chased after the dog, forced the dog on its back, and just stood over him for a little bit like errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.... If he's tired and a human approaches him he's all tail wags and love love love (so it's only dogs that don't live with us) Because after a long day he'll come home, go sleep on his favorite bed, and Shyla can come over and start to wrestle and he'll just ignore her or start to play...

    Another issue I've been working on is his mild food aggression. Humans and dogs in the home can take his food, eat his food, do whatever we want... But once again when strange dogs are around (or dogs that don't live with us, but even if he sees them every week) he is so bad!! So I just walk away from him then give attention to the other dogs.

    The very last issue is if he's in the lap of another person (near a human) or myself and a dog approaches 65% of the time he'll go into errrrrrrrrrrrr back off!! So I tell people to put him down and walk away. I have no idea why sometimes he feels the need to guard us...

    I'm trying to just keep positive training in mind. Walk away, ignore him, don't give him negative or positive attention, put him in the crate if he's grumpy...

    Working with my mentor next month one on one to expose him to many dogs and try to get this under control... but I'd like to hear opinions from other trainers on the board. If this was your dog how would you approach it?

    I mean it's almost as if he's just annoyed by other dogs (because they are just so hyper and all over the place I don't blame him)

    Thank you in advanced for any tips or ideas that could help my little angel.

    Sargeants Lil Wink of Gold LPL JD "Kaden"

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  • 02-24-2009 1:56 PM In reply to JD_Shelties

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    Re: "Mood" Aggression, Food Aggression, Guarding

    Sounds like simple bad manners to me.  He needs to be taught what is acceptable behavior and what is not.

    JD_Shelties:
    Humans and dogs in the home can take his food, eat his food, do whatever we want... But once again when strange dogs are around (or dogs that don't live with us, but even if he sees them every week) he is so bad!

    This is an easy one.  No feeding around strange dogs.  In fact, it would probably best to feed your puppy in a crate or kennel.  He'll feel safer and won't have a need to guard.

    I'm not a trainer, so that's all I'll say at this point.  I know you will get lots of good advice.

    Best of luck!  I'm sure you can teach your puppy more appropriate behaviors.

     

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  • 02-25-2009 11:14 AM In reply to JD_Shelties

    Re: "Mood" Aggression, Food Aggression, Guarding

    JD_Shelties:
    Outside of the home (when I'm doing puppy classes) after about 2 - 3 hours of training there is always social play time for puppies and younger dogs. And boy is he cranky! He's only 16 weeks old so I make sure to bring his crate along so he can go lay down when he needs to, and by the time it's play time he is very grumpy.

    Not sure I get this - are you saying he is participating in training for 2-3 hours, or you are teaching classes while he is crated?  Either way - first scenario, he's too young to be training in increments that long.  Second scenario, boredom and confinement make herders cranky.  Exercise him before you must turn your attention elsewhere so that he's tired while you are busy.

     

    JD_Shelties:
    Lots of warning signals, showing teeth, launching forward if the dogs get too close or annoy him too much ("back off!" type additude). One time a Chihuahua really must of upset him because he chased after the dog, forced the dog on its back, and just stood over him for a little bit like errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.... 
     

    Not uncommon for herders to hate other dogs right in their face.  If the dog is in their face, he's blocking their view, and they NEED to see where you are, what's going on.  Plus, some dogs are just not nice behind a barrier, such as a fence or crate door, and that is very common in the herding breeds, too.  Indicative of territorial behavior or anxiety about being trapped.  I have no problem with letting dogs iron out minor difficulties so long as no one uses teeth.  And, the Chi may have been of an age where he WAS annoying, and needed to be told.  Without seeing it, I can't say, but I know that my own dogs occasionally tell a pup off, or ask an adult dog to keep their distance.  Not abnormal behavior.

     

    JD_Shelties:

    Another issue I've been working on is his mild food aggression. Humans and dogs in the home can take his food, eat his food, do whatever we want... But once again when strange dogs are around (or dogs that don't live with us, but even if he sees them every week) he is so bad!! So I just walk away from him then give attention to the other dogs.

    The very last issue is if he's in the lap of another person (near a human) or myself and a dog approaches 65% of the time he'll go into errrrrrrrrrrrr back off!! So I tell people to put him down and walk away. I have no idea why sometimes he feels the need to guard us...

    He's probably not guarding you to protect you - you are a possession (in the sense of a "resource"), and dogs that guard possessions may guard food, people, space, toys, kleenex - whatever he considers his.  "Mine! A Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs" is a good starting place for helping resolve the food aggression issue.  Beyond that, I would not have this dog on laps, beds, couches, etc. until he is well trained enough that you can move him about on command.  Ownership of high places will just convince him that he is the king of the hill - not what you want.

    JD_Shelties:
    Working with my mentor next month one on one to expose him to many dogs and try to get this under control... but I'd like to hear opinions from other trainers on the board. If this was your dog how would you approach it?

    JD_Shelties:
    Working with my mentor next month one on one to expose him to many dogs and try to get this under control... but I'd like to hear opinions from other trainers on the board. If this was your dog how would you approach it?
     

    All I require of my dogs is that they be able to sit nicely by my side when another dog is two feet or more from them.  I do not force dogs that don't care for physical play to do it, nor do I get involved in doggy tiffs, so long as the dogs are appropriate.  It sounds like you need more education on dog body language and breed propensities.  I like Barbara Handelman's new book on body language, and the breed part is just experience, and knowing the breed standards for temperament, plus getting to know the rescue peeps for the breeds - they know the down and dirty about why their breed might not fit into a family - a wealth of knowledge there that you won't get from breeders who just love the breed and have their rose colored glasses on LOL.  Shelties and other herders, if this is about the dog in your avatar, are not that fond of physical play, will tell other dogs to get out of their personal space, and some of them tend to obsess on a certain toy and not want to share.  Little you can do to change who your dog is.  We see herders all the time that, once their spit is on a tennis ball, no other ball will do that day;-) Lots you can do to insist that the dog responds to "leave it" or "come". 

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  • 02-25-2009 11:28 AM In reply to JD_Shelties

    Re: "Mood" Aggression, Food Aggression, Guarding

    Outside of the home (when I'm doing puppy classes) after about 2 - 3 hours of training there is always social play time for puppies and younger dogs. And boy is he cranky! He's only 16 weeks old so I make sure to bring his crate along so he can go lay down when he needs to, and by the time it's play time he is very grumpy.

    two to three hours of training? no dog can handle that, let alone a 16 week old puppy. Of course he's grumpy. He's exhausted. And there are very few dogs that don't find interacting with lots of strange dogs to be stressful; add in exhaustion, young age, and you get the snarlies. And it's always a bad idea to feed a dog with other dogs around, so don't do it unless he's in his crate and protected from the other dogs, or he's working one-on-one with you and earning rapidly eaten treats without other dogs bothering the pair of you.

    I think your expectations are unreasonable.

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  • 02-26-2009 3:55 PM In reply to spiritdogs

    Re: "Mood" Aggression, Food Aggression, Guarding

    Thank you so much for your response spiritdogs!

    spiritdogs:
    ...are you saying he is participating in training for 2-3 hours, or you are teaching classes while he is crated?

    On days that we are training he eats his breakfast then goes on our DogTread for 10 minutes at 1.7 mph - 2.5 mph (depending on how he feels). When we first get to the facility I'll play fetch with him while I'm setting up (he's a sucker for his purple bouncy ball!) During training classes he's off leash and will sit next to me, or go lay in his crate (which ever he choses). I'll use him for demonstrations here and there, or put him in his crate when I'm working one-on-one with the students. Puppy class is split in half with a break in between, and he'll play with the puppies on break time, use the restroom when he needs to, etc. After 2 - 3 class it's Socialization Hour and I'd love for him to join in. At first he may see his favorite "friends" and play... but then all of a sudden he'll get very very grumpy... and I always just assumed he was tired, put him in his crate, and he'll just pass out or sit there and watch everyone play.

    I was wondering if it is in fact 100% grumpy/sleepy or if this is a behavior issues / bad manners that I should work on with him during this social time??

    I was thinking about NOT exercising him and NOT warming up with him on those days so he's not really tired... because sometimes I feel like he does a lot verses not enough.

    spiritdogs:
    He's probably not guarding you to protect you - you are a possession (in the sense of a "resource"), and dogs that guard possessions may guard food, people, space, toys, kleenex - whatever he considers his.  "Mine! A Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs" is a good starting place for helping resolve the food aggression issue.  Beyond that, I would not have this dog on laps, beds, couches, etc. until he is well trained enough that you can move him about on command.  Ownership of high places will just convince him that he is the king of the hill - not what you want.

    I totally agree with you!! I've been working on this from day one myself, but now need to inform other people "okay STOP picking up my dog!!" He's very spoiled when he's around other people, but now it needs to stop.

    spiritdogs:
    All I require of my dogs is that they be able to sit nicely by my side when another dog is two feet or more from them.  I do not force dogs that don't care for physical play to do it, nor do I get involved in doggy tiffs, so long as the dogs are appropriate.

    This is very comforting to hear!

     And everything else you said I completely agree with and very much appreciate your response!! Gives me a peace of mind

    He's now fed in his crate, not treated or trained put next to other dogs, and people at the ring are not allow to hold or pick him up anymore.

    Last night I all ready noticed an improvement just from this pattern... plus he didn't hang out for hours worth of training so he was ready to play!!

    I'm going to look into those books! *hugs* thank you so much

    Sargeants Lil Wink of Gold LPL JD "Kaden"

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  • 02-26-2009 5:56 PM In reply to JD_Shelties

    Re: "Mood" Aggression, Food Aggression, Guarding

     I think you are asking alot for such a young pup.  He probably is very tired and therefore grumpy!  I would have him in his crate in a place where he can sleep when you are training.  Since he is a young herding pup, he is probably on alert the whole time you are instructing the class.  Put him away somewhere he can not see what is going on and bring him out fresh for play time.  He may also be feeling a bit possessive about the space since he spends so much time there.  My Duffy, who is half sheltie, is territorial about our grooming shop, always telling everyone the rules, but he a completely different dog away from his "home" places.

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  • 03-06-2009 9:59 AM In reply to GoldenAC

    Re: "Mood" Aggression, Food Aggression, Guarding

    GoldenAC:
    Since he is a young herding pup, he is probably on alert the whole time you are instructing the class.
     

    This is a very salient point, and I should have mentioned it, too, but glad GoldenAC chimed in.  Wink 

    GoldenAC:
    He may also be feeling a bit possessive about the space since he spends so much time there.
      Another "brevity is the soul of wit" comment.  Herders are, by nature, often "guardians of the farm" and care about their God given responsibilities very much, even if the "farm" is the two feet of space around their favorite human.  Some people go to the trouble of moving the dog's crate, moving the food bowl, changing the bedding and bowls, etc., so as to minimize the dog's perception that he owns the whole place.  It also helps, for play groups, to have your dog enter the hall last, or at least after several play mates are already in the room.  That way, they "own" the room, and he doesn't;-)

    Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association
    Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program

    AKC CGC Evaluator #3669
    Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer

    Sioux, CGC, TDInc.
    Maska, CGC, TDInc.
    Sequoyah, CGC
    Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 20 1/2
    Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog

    In memory of Mike, please become an organ donor today.

    "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George

    "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz



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  • 03-06-2009 12:20 PM In reply to spiritdogs

    UPDATE: "Mood" Aggression

    Thanks GoldenAC & Spiritdogs!

    UPDATE:

    He no long uses the treadmill on the morning we have long training sessions to teach. We still warm-up with fetch and a couple obedience games, but he seems to have more energy towards the end of the day without that morning workout. Being a herding dog, I always want to make sure they have enough physical stimulation as well as mental, but that was just too much for him at this point in time. 

    For most of the classes he stays in his crate, then comes out when I need him. When/If he gets grumpy, he goes in his crate. When he's inside his crate it's like an "off" switch goes on and he just falls asleep. Verses standing/sitting next to me the whole class because THEN I think he is "alert" (what you both were talking about). Crate = safe/sleep to him

    I've been encouraging herding behaviors. I building this silly little toy for him to stalk around the yard. It's been a blast! He also knows a distance "down" now but we're working on directions... Thinking about taking a herding class with him

    We also enrolled in an evaluator's class just so he can get more exposure to dogs without the possibily that he thinks he owns our ring...

    spiritdogs:
    Some people go to the trouble of moving the dog's crate, moving the food bowl, changing the bedding and bowls, etc., so as to minimize the dog's perception that he owns the whole place.  It also helps, for play groups, to have your dog enter the hall last, or at least after several play mates are already in the room.  That way, they "own" the room, and he doesn't;-)

    If it seems to persist, I do believe I will go this far; because as it stands right now he walks in there like "HELLO I am the little king, everyone gaulk at meeeeeeeeeee" so that needs to stop.

    Considering he only displays this behavior at my trianing ring, I'm excited to see how he behaviors with other puppys at a different ring. We've done drop-in classes at multiple venues, but nothing "puppy" with socialization/playing involved.

    Sargeants Lil Wink of Gold LPL JD "Kaden"

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