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AIHA or IMHA

Last post 11-22-2009 5:14 PM by Johnny&Tessy. 1638 replies.
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  • 08-14-2009 2:54 PM In reply to amsten

    Re: AIHA or IMHA

    They started Smokie on a new drug yesterday, I think it was Cyclosporine and he's holding steady at 16.  His respiration, blood pressure and other vitals are normal and he is eating.  The doctor is worried about blood clots and still not thrilled with Smokie's slow progress but I'm happy he's stable right now, because last night when I went to visit he didn't look good!  He wasn't responsive and was breathing heavily.  I just hope tonight's visit goes better.

    Is acupuncture supposed to help with this condition?

    I'm glad to hear everyone is hanging in there!  My husband, doesn't really like to talk about what's going on and I hate leaning on my mom anymore than I have to.  It is so nice to talk to others who are having to go through this.  I think you guys know as much as most vet's know, some of you may even know more.

    We must all take peace in knowing we are doing all we can for our "kids".  Many happy tails to you all!

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  • 08-14-2009 5:39 PM In reply to Smokie's Mom

    • amsten
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    Re: AIHA or IMHA

    I'm so happy to hear that Smokie is stabilizing!  And eating to boot!  Jazz is on Cyclosporine as well.  It's an immune-suppressant, basically to help shut down his immune system since it's destroying red blood cells when it shouldn't.  The heavy breathing may be the steroids, Jazz has reacted the same way, and I was told that this was the reason by her vet.  With all the transfusions that Smokie had, I'm not surprised that he wasn't responsive - his body has really been through a lot this week.

    Your many happy  tails comment was too cute - thanks for the chuckle!

    Jazz did really well with the acupuncture - she even allowed it near her paws when she hates for anyone to touch them.  The vet was at our house for nearly three hours!  It may sound strange to say, but I felt she was treating Jazz, not the disease.  We talked a lot about nutrition, supplements, herbs, habits, behavior etc.  It was so peaceful, and as she did the acupuncture, she explained what she was doing and why.  Mostly, the idea was to support her lungs, digestion, her liver, kidneys, etc. without doing anything that would support her immune system.  The vet spent over a decade in emergency veterinary medicine and was extremely knowledgeable about IMHA. 

    I can post some dietary info she provided if anyone is interested.  Let me know.   I am also very grateful to have found you all.  The support I have received has been tremendous!  Well, we're off to the vet for a blood test!

    Amsten

     

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  • 08-14-2009 5:50 PM In reply to Smokie's Mom

    Re: AIHA or IMHA

    Smokie's Mom:
    They started Smokie on a new drug yesterday, I think it was Cyclosporine and he's holding steady at 16.  His respiration, blood pressure and other vitals are normal and he is eating.  The doctor is worried about blood clots and still not thrilled with Smokie's slow progress but I'm happy he's stable right now, because last night when I went to visit he didn't look good!  He wasn't responsive and was breathing heavily.  I just hope tonight's visit goes better.

    cyclosporine IS the drug of choice for IMHA -- it takes a few days to accumulate in the body enough to stop the immune system but it is probably THE best drug (it targets the part of the immune system that attacks the patients OWN body). 

    The panting is the pred -- and they can feel pretty darned shut down.  But if he's eating that is VERY good.

    Acupuncture and TCVM (Traditional Chinese Veterinary Medicine) can be REALLY helpful -- it can help the body keep up with the unusual demand/need to produce more blood and it can also help the blood "move" (that's part of what all the discussion is about with aspirin -- to try to keep the blood thin and moving properly in the body).  We used TCVM extensively for Billy (he still gets acupuncture -- in fact so do Tink and Kee Shu) every month just to help him maintain now.  The U of FL at Gainesville teaches acupuncture and Chinese herbals as part of their vet program.  http://www.tcvm.com is the Chi Institute website -- and on the left is a "locator" that can help you find someone qualified in your area if you are ienterested.


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  • 08-14-2009 6:45 PM In reply to amsten

    • FrisbyPI
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    Re: AIHA or IMHA

    amsten:

    I can post some dietary info she provided if anyone is interested.  Let me know.   I am also very grateful to have found you all.  The support I have received has been tremendous!  Well, we're off to the vet for a blood test!

    Any dietary info you have would be great--thanks for offering to share! Here's to good blood test results! And, ditto on the support!

    Kate and Frisby
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  • 08-14-2009 7:12 PM In reply to FrisbyPI

    Re: AIHA or IMHA

    The dietary information would be great, the vets keep insisting it has nothing to do with his condition but it can't hurt!

    In exciting news Smokie's up to 20 without another transfusion, the vet keeps cautioning me that we aren't out of the woods yet, clots are a major issue and he's still really lathargic but I'm glad to have something positive.  Hopefully tonights visit will be better than last nights!

    I'll have to try the website and find out is someone near me does acupuncture, it sounds like a very healthy way to treat the condition.

     

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  • 08-14-2009 8:38 PM In reply to Smokie's Mom

    • amsten
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    Re: AIHA or IMHA

    Jazz' miracle # is 44!

    Smokie's move in the right direction without another transfusion is Awesome!  It was through the Chi institute and Billy's mom that we found this TCVM vet.

    re: diet:  We talked for over two hours.  I will try to be brief - for what it's worth with a side note that she stated eating, whether or not it's nutritional value is optimal is crucial (ie a perfect diet that they refuse is of no use) and all new foods must be introduced very slowly (no abrupt changes):

    Raw diet: not recommended for a dog facing immune challenges b/c there is an increased risk of bacterial contamination and their weakened immune systems can't handle this risk in the same way a non-compromised dog would

    Quality prepared foods often contain ingredients meant to boost the immune system, so they may not be optimal where we are trying to suppress the immune system

    No mushrooms, garlic, onions, chives, grapes, kelp, seaweed.

    Meat - encourage duck, duck eggs, egg whites, rabbit, white fish, turkey, beef, beef liver, bison, pork, pork liver, pork kidney, salmon, trout, tuna (others listed but not common foods).  Give some: beef heart.  Interestingly, no lamb, beef kidney chicken or shellfish.

    Vegetables (steamed and mashed) and fruit (mashed): alfalfa, apple (limit), amaranth, apricot(some), asparagus, banana, blueberry, broccoli, cabbage, celery, cauliflower, cucumber, Chinese cabbage, dates(some), eggplant, ginkgo, kiwi, mango, orange, pear, sweet potato and yam (careful not too much b/c high fiber can cause diarrhea), watermelon, white radish, pumpkin (same high fiber warning), parsley (some), carrot (some)

    Grains/beans (slightly overcooked): Barley, barley sprouts, brown rice, buck wheat, flax seed oil, green tea, millet, mung bean, sesame seed, tofu, black bean, black sesame, broad bean, green bean, green peas, kidney bean, red bean, string beans, adzuki bean, soy bean.

    This is extremely condensed, but more common foods than the rest on my list.

    Finally, we added omega3 and probiotics based on Jazz's evaluation.

    I hope this helps!

    Amsten

     

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  • 08-14-2009 8:41 PM In reply to Smokie's Mom

    • FrisbyPI
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    Re: AIHA or IMHA

    Way to go, Smokie! Keep resting and eating! That is good news.

    Kate and Frisby
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  • 08-14-2009 8:43 PM In reply to FrisbyPI

    • amsten
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    Re: AIHA or IMHA

    How is Frisby doing?

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  • 08-14-2009 8:46 PM In reply to amsten

    • FrisbyPI
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    Re: AIHA or IMHA

    Jazz--WOW! A 44!! What great news!

    Thanks for the dietary info--I was thrilled to see that some of Frisby's favorite treats are on there. (She loves green beans. She also gets an apricot every day or two. Plus a lot of the other things listed.) The point about immune boosting foods is a good one, and I hadn't thought about the need to watch that right now. Thank you!

    Frisby's having some good days--I hold my breath when I write that, but she is starting to get back to her old self. Friends who visited made the same comment. Yeah! Slow, steady progress.

    Has anyone heard from Eli lately?

    Kate and Frisby
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  • 08-14-2009 11:27 PM In reply to amsten

    Re: AIHA or IMHA

    First off realize that this is specific for Jazz -- the list is going to differ for each dog and likely is infused with this particular vet's preferences.  but some of it is PURE TCVM 

    amsten:

    No mushrooms, garlic, onions, chives, grapes, kelp, seaweed.

    Dr. D would say "a fungus is a fungus and you don't give fungi to a dog you're trying to keep from HAVING a fungal infection -- garlic surprises me - I ADD garlic (and quite a bit of it) but no onions (it inhibits the body's ability to absorb calcium).  chives ARE onion ... grapes are notorious.  Kelp and seaweed?  I'd wonder what the basis is for that.  Not something Dr D banns -- in fact she's had me add it at times.

    amsten:

    Meat - encourage duck, duck eggs, egg whites, rabbit, white fish, turkey, beef, beef liver, bison, pork, pork liver, pork kidney, salmon, trout, tuna (others listed but not common foods).  Give some: beef heart.  Interestingly, no lamb, beef kidney chicken or shellfish.

    Even some TCVM vets will difffer her.  Chicken is considered an inflammatory meat -- it actually *causes* inflammation.  However -- Dr. D GREATLY encouraged beef and beef heart and lamb -- so I'm likely thinking either this vet has a slightly different take on it or perhaps saw something particular in Jazz that needed to be brought out.

    Kidney is another dirty ogan -- and Dr D really didn't want me to give much beef liver or any other kind of liver because it is considered a 'dirty' organ (any antibiotics, chemicals, etc. that animal consumed will be IN the liver).

    Red meat usually over white.  Pork may vary with where you are and how good the quality may be.  Dr. D tends not to like pork much because pork is typically used MUCH in animal testing. 

    amsten:

    Vegetables (steamed and mashed) and fruit (mashed): alfalfa, apple (limit), amaranth, apricot(some), asparagus, banana, blueberry, broccoli, cabbage, celery, cauliflower, cucumber, Chinese cabbage, dates(some), eggplant, ginkgo, kiwi, mango, orange, pear, sweet potato and yam (careful not too much b/c high fiber can cause diarrhea), watermelon, white radish, pumpkin (same high fiber warning), parsley (some), carrot (some)

    Chinese cabbage - nappa cabbage or bok choy?  Bok choy is particularly helpful for arthritis (particularly those older dogs) -- and man they LOVE it.  Asparagus is particularly kidney friendly.  Sticky fruits (dates, figs, prunes) are high in iron.  Watermelon -- Dr. Xie would say the WHITE part -- Billy literally CRAVED watermelon when he was in the heavy IMHA stuff -- it was like THE BEST treat ever for him.  The colder and the juicier the better.

    I use sweet potato/yam as my base for my food -- very well tolerated and man they love it.  Pumpkin is the one I have to be careful of -- that one WILL cause diarreha

    Parsley is cleansgin -- particularly for the liver.  In fact any bitter herb (cilantro, parsley, and any bitter green) is really good for the liver.

    carrot generally has a sucky cal/phos ratio -- so when I serve carrot I usually pair it with something like kale that has an awesome cal/phos ratio.

    amsten:

    Grains/beans (slightly overcooked): Barley, barley sprouts, brown rice, buck wheat, flax seed oil, green tea, millet, mung bean, sesame seed, tofu, black bean, black sesame, broad bean, green bean, green peas, kidney bean, red bean, string beans, adzuki bean, soy bean.

    Again some differences here -- Dr D is mostly happy for me to never use grain but rather veggie instead.  And particularly NOT grain when Billy is ever at all "inflamed" (which happens after the more long term use of cyclo)  Barley is better than rice (and no rice is particularly good brown nor white), millet is better than most any other grain.  But legumes are a whole different deal.  But Dr. D is NOT at all fond of soy -- which is kinda unusual because most TCVM vets like soy.  But it can be an allergen.

    But some really good stuff here -- But do keep in mind that as her bloodwork comes back you will sometimes see the vet say "give ______" in response to something that comes up "low" or "high" on the bloodwork.  Really pretty cool to know that I'm giving my dog apricots because he's low in mangnesium!!  or something like that -- here's a treat and it's medicinal! LOL


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  • 08-14-2009 11:29 PM In reply to Smokie's Mom

    Re: AIHA or IMHA

    Smokie's Mom:

    The dietary information would be great, the vets keep insisting it has nothing to do with his condition but it can't hurt!

    that's a huge difference between a TCVM vet and a 'regular' vet -- to the TCVM vet diet is everything. 

    I was astonished you were giving the raw medaliions - I STILL don't give Billy raw because even 18 months post IMHA meds he is STILL too immune-suppressed to deal with anything raw -- frozen or otherwise.

    Glad it is all starting to turn around -- that is awesome.


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  • 08-15-2009 3:15 AM In reply to Smokie's Mom

    Re: AIHA or IMHA

     

    Smokie's Mom:
    I think it was Cyclosporine and he's holding steady at 16. 

     Great news that he's on the Cyclosporine.

     

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  • 08-15-2009 8:42 AM In reply to calliecritturs

    Re: AIHA or IMHA

    calliecritturs:
    I was astonished you were giving the raw medaliions - I STILL don't give Billy raw because even 18 months post IMHA meds he is STILL too immune-suppressed to deal with anything raw -- frozen or otherwise.

    Willow just recently started getting raw bones again after 8 months. 

     

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  • 08-15-2009 10:50 AM In reply to Smokie's Mom

    • Kiypies
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    Re: AIHA or IMHA

    It's a day to day process so a climb is good!  And Smokie is bound to be more tired than usual being in the hospital and not sleeping as well etc.  When Kiya first came home she slept for a good two days before she had a little more energy.  Best of luck with Smokie!!!

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  • 08-15-2009 11:06 AM In reply to amsten

    • Kiypies
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    Re: AIHA or IMHA

    Wow is right, 44!  That's great!!!  Keep it up Jazz!

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