dealing with someone else's reactive dog

• 12-26-2008 10:23 AM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  sillysally Joined on 09-10-2007 Indiana Posts 3,826 Points 45

  Re: dealing with someone else's reactive dog Reply Contact spiritdogs:   corvus: spiritdogs: since dogs don't often approach frontally or present the front of their bodies unless they mean business or are socially inept.     Okay, not to pick a fight or something, but I totally disagree with that. In fact, I rarely see dogs that DON'T approach front on. People are always saying dogs don't do that and I'm telling you they do. All the time. Some dogs don't like it. Most are thoroughly fine with it. Both my dogs are very well socialised and they always sniff around the face first before they do anything else. Kivi is still a pup in his head, but he is neither socially inept nor does he ever mean business. He always approaches front on screaming submissive signals. Penny is certainly not socially inept being 13 years old and seen just about every dog personality there is. She doesn't approach much anymore, but when she meets a dog for the first time it's always sniff at face, then circle and sniff at butt. She has very little interest in picking fights. My mother's two dogs are the same. They don't pick fights, they are very comfortable around other dogs and well socialised, and they at least sniff in the general direction of the other dog's face before doing anything else. They all get as close to touching noses as the other dog is comfortable with. It never starts a fight or gets another dog upset. Most of Kivi's dog park pals will charge up to him at a gallop and screech to a halt right in his face. People are always saying that's rude, too, but he doesn't mind. Penny does, and the dogs that behave that way don't do it to her. Sometimes I wonder if we know very much at all about dog etiquette. I am beginning to think it doesn't exist. Different dogs have different styles. A polite dog is one that adjusts their behaviour in response to the signals they are receiving to avoid tension. I reckon it's got nothing to do with some unwritten book of dog manners. Sorry to hijack. To answer the OP, I think ignoring is the best course of action. It tells both your dog and the lunging dog that there's nothing to be concerned about. One thing I've learnt from wild animals is they will often ignore you right up until you start looking at them. They are so leery of interest from someone.   Yes, they do it all the time if they are socially inept.  Let me clarify - sniffing about the face is NOT what I consider a frontal approach.  To me, a frontal approach means that the dogs are making direct eye contact and facing one another, not averting eyes or making any circular moves with their bodies.  That body language is threatening.  And, just because most dogs "don't mind" being approached that way does not mean that it's normal greeting behavior - all that means is that most dogs are more or less subordinate and don't elect to cause a ruckus.  They simply use distance increasing signals or appeasement signals that thwart a real attack on the part of the approaching dog.  If you ever have a dog approach a dog that doesn't think it's ok, watch out.  Also, on leash greeting behavior is often not what you would see if the dogs were free to move about. Actually, we know quite a lot about dog etiquette (great book on the subject by Barbara Handelman, for anyone interested: "Canine Behavior - An Illustrated Handbook", and also Brenda Aloff's book on body language.   Behavior such as you describe at the dog park is not necessarily rude, since, as you say, it is coming from known "pals" who have already figured out your dog's M.O.  And, I get the same thing at our play groups - dogs figure out very quickly who they can and can not be so bold with.  If they try the same thing on my Sioux or Sequoyah that they try on the eternally bubbly Labs, they quickly get told off Aussie style. As we know, too, some very reactive dogs will react to ANY approach, even an approach from a respectful language-savvy dog.  And, some dogs will NOT react, no matter how rude the greeter is.   I agree.  Sally struggles with proper doggie body language and Jack, who other than being very excited when he greets, seems to have a very good handle on it.  Sally has a habit of approaching from the front and Jack from the side....  ~Christina~ Sally the Pibble Mix Jack the Lab "Fifteen men on the dead man's chest- Yo-ho-ho, and a bottle of rum!"

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• 12-26-2008 11:59 AM

  In reply to sillysally

  mudpuppy Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 5,991 Points 100

  Re: dealing with someone else's reactive dog Reply Contact fact, I rarely see dogs that DON'T approach front on. they aren't DIRECTLY intensely front on at a distance is what is meant. Head-turned to the side slightly, shoulder pointed at oncoming shoulder; ears at half-mast, body outline relaxed; once they get close enough to exchange facial sniffs they have already established that they aren't going to kill each other through the exchange of subtle signals and now it's ok to directly face each other. Also dogs who know each other well greet each other far differently than two strange dogs meeting for the first time, and dogs do learn context- i.e. dog park we play and they may greet a strange dog there differently than a strange dog encountered somewhere else. Just as you probably greet your mother far differently than some stranger approaching you on a sidewalk in the dark and you might greet a stranger met in a store differently yet again.

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• 12-26-2008 5:19 PM

  In reply to mudpuppy

  corvus Joined on 08-02-2006 Australia (NSW) Posts 2,692 Points 80

  Re: dealing with someone else's reactive dog Reply Contact But is being in a stand stay really front on intensely from a distance? I mean, it's a moot point because as SD mentioned sometimes pretty much anything is threatening for a reactive dog, but when I think about it, standing in a relaxed manner is not approaching at all. If you're stuck on a footpath or something and you are inevitably going to pass the reactive dog within its trigger zone, maybe parking yourself and then putting yourself between the oncoming dog and yours and then talking to your dog so that you both ignore the oncoming dog but also don't approach the oncoming dog could help more than ignoring it and moving past quickly.   Mourning Penny. We were going to be young together forever, but I'm glad we grew up together instead.

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• 12-26-2008 5:24 PM

  In reply to corvus

  stardog85 Joined on 09-10-2007 South Carolina, USA Posts 2,346 Points 235

  Re: dealing with someone else's reactive dog Reply Contact Ime, a dog in a stand-stay is often standing square, and looking ahead.  Stopping an inquisitive dog like B in a stand stay might even focus his attentions on the dog in question since he now has a chance to pay attention, vs. being given a cue to do something with his eyes or body (walking at heel, eye contact, etc. all are incompatible with approaching another dog) that requires more focus.  That square posture and eye contact is threatening (maybe just mildly, but still), especially when you look at the normal approach of a dog (soft body language, averted eyes, etc.). Erin, the Amazing Maggie Mae, Ziva the Wonder Dog, and Kestrel the Up and Coming "Always keep one still, secret spot where dreams may go." - Louise Priscoll

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• 12-26-2008 7:41 PM

  In reply to stardog85

  kpwlee Joined on 06-17-2006 North Carolina Posts 6,421 Points 535

  Re: dealing with someone else's reactive dog Reply Contact stardog85: Stopping an inquisitive dog like B in a stand stay might even focus his attentions on the dog in question since he now has a chance to pay attention, Great catch there Stardog.  Bugsy is an inquisitive dog AND a physically imposing one.  And although he has never shown any aggression he has never been submissive as almost every dog we've met is quickly submissive to him.  He has buddies from under 10lbs through 110lbs and from puppy to elderly and can socialize and play with all of them. He is a very socialized dog and very friendly - we have worked on him not be too friendly, meaning he doesn't get to greet everyone.  He has been through various classes, dog parks, dog events, etc. and I am 100% sure he is not 'inept'. stardog85: That square posture and eye contact is threatening I do think this is part of the problem and throw in that he is tall, muscular, dark and confident.  Plus he is not a soft dog, his eyes are intense. DH had him out today and I sent him out with treats and instructions and they met the girl and dog and he said it wasn't good.  Of course DH isn't great at being ahead of the issue. It would be wonderful to just avoid them but the way our development is set up and the fact they live essentially on the same street it is impossible.  I will figure out how to get B to walk past them but I do worry about anyone else as this is really a problematic dog/situation.  There are lots of dog owners in this neighborhood and you will see several on any walk because of the layout.  Other than one crazed Jack Russell none are a problem. And B has met everyone with no issue and in fact walks past the crazed Jack Russell as if it doesn't exist.  I would hate to see this Jack and this BC/GSD cross meet. I will keep working on it as I see this as a training challenge.  I appreciate the thoughts and ideas from all.

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• 12-27-2008 2:15 PM

  In reply to kpwlee

  mudpuppy Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 5,991 Points 100	Re: dealing with someone else's reactive dog Reply Contact maybe you could teach Bugsy to give off an array of calming signals on command? head turns, tongue flicks, etc.?
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• 12-27-2008 9:32 PM

  In reply to mudpuppy

  kpwlee Joined on 06-17-2006 North Carolina Posts 6,421 Points 535	Re: dealing with someone else's reactive dog Reply Contact  worth a try - we did some clicker work today and it was surprisingly quick with that task so I'll try some of this tomorrow
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• 12-27-2008 9:56 PM

  In reply to kpwlee

  Cassidys Mom Joined on 09-02-2007 SF Bay Area Posts 805 Points 100

  Re: dealing with someone else's reactive dog Reply Contact  Can you turn around and head the opposite direction until you get to a side street, go down a couple of houses, and wait until she and the dog are past? Keefer gets barky at other dogs on walks, although he's extremely social off leash at the park (I think he gets frustrated that he can't go meet EVERYBODY he wants to when he wants to ), so I have a variety of ways to increase the distance and diffuse him. Also, if there are any cars parked on the street you can go the opposite direction until you've got cars blocking the dog's view of you and your dog, and then continue walking after they're past. That's another thing I do with Keef all the time. Sometimes I'll see another dog walking towards us across the street and I'm able to use parked cars to block his view so effectively that he never even realizes that there's another dog in the vicinity at all. Dena v TeMar 9/12/04 Keefer (Lakota v TeMar) 8/25/05 Cassidy 6/8/00-10/4/04

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• 12-28-2008 8:48 AM

  In reply to Cassidys Mom

  kpwlee Joined on 06-17-2006 North Carolina Posts 6,421 Points 535	Re: dealing with someone else's reactive dog Reply Contact  Thanks and great to see you posting!
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• 12-31-2008 11:07 AM

  In reply to kpwlee

  crysania Joined on 09-04-2008 Syracuse, NY Posts 158 Points 45

  Re: dealing with someone else's reactive dog Reply Contact  Dahlia is somewhat reactive on leash -- like someone else mentioned, I think she just gets frustrated that she can't go meet every dog we see.  She wants to greet and say hi.  The times she's met another dog on the walks after going all barky nuts, she simply sniffs and calms down, sometimes wants to play.  So I can understand what it's like to have a dog get a bit out of control on the leash.  When we see other dogs coming, I tend to try to cross to get far away from her.  I use the "leave it" command to mean "leave whatever it is you're interested in" and it generally works, unless she's already going out of control.  But if the other dog is going nuts, it can he horrible difficult to control her.  The thing that bothers me is that this woman has a reactive dog on a long leash.  We do use a 15-ft retractable with Dahlia but whenever I see another dog in the vicinity, I clamp down and shorten it to 4-5 feet or less to keep her close to me.  If you do go talk to this girl or her parents, you might suggest using a shortler leash.  When Dahlia has gone out of control on the end of the 15-ft leash, she's much harder to control (this happened recently when two dogs came around the corner, one of which is also reactive). Also, don't assume the dog ISN'T getting any exercise just because you haven't seen them out much.  We walk our dog 2-3 times a day (sometimes more just for potty walks) and rarely run into the same folks every time.  Someone might assume we never walk our dog if they've only seen us once every couple weeks, but it's simply not true.  We don't always take the same route as we want to give her some variety in places to sniff.

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• 12-31-2008 12:07 PM

  In reply to crysania

  Chuffy Joined on 12-17-2006 UK Posts 7,400 Points 145

  Re: dealing with someone else's reactive dog Reply Contact crysania: Also, don't assume the dog ISN'T getting any exercise just because you haven't seen them out much.  We walk our dog 2-3 times a day (sometimes more just for potty walks) and rarely run into the same folks every time.  Someone might assume we never walk our dog if they've only seen us once every couple weeks, but it's simply not true.  We don't always take the same route as we want to give her some variety in places to sniff.   Also - I used to take my dog out for toilet breaks and exercise at the most unholy hours, in the hope it would be quieter and I wouldn#t run into anyone.... (it turned out other people with reactive dogs had the same plan as me!) "Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day, but set fire to him and he is warm for the rest of his life." - Pratchett, "Jingo"

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• 12-31-2008 7:06 PM

  In reply to mudpuppy

  espencer Joined on 09-25-2006 St Louis Posts 3,496 Points 300

  Re: dealing with someone else's reactive dog Reply Contact mudpuppy: maybe you could teach Bugsy to give off an array of calming signals on command? head turns, tongue flicks, etc.?   Actually tongue flicks are far from being a calming signal, tongue flicks are a sign of anxiety and a clear indication of a violation of personal space according to Brenda Aloff and many others. Head turns, sniffing the ground, stretching, body shaking and yawning are the calming signals "There are not bad dogs, only bad owners"

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• 01-01-2009 1:12 PM

  In reply to espencer

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 11,723 Points 1,020

  Re: dealing with someone else's reactive dog Reply Contact Tongue flicks are widely assumed to be appeasement behaviors, and are designed to pacify or avoid aggressive behavior from the other dog (or person).  This is different than submissive behavior, which is designed to defuse aggressive behavior that is already in progress from the other dog or human.  Appeasement can also indicate a desire for interaction, or, as espencer suggests, a desire to increase distance, but it's not always done out of anxiety, sometimes it's also done as part of greeting to acknowledge the status of the other.  So, in that sense, yes, the dog may feel a violation of personal space, but not be "anxious" in the context of fear.  However, sniffing the ground, shaking, and yawning are displacment signals - those are signals that are out of context and that the dog uses when stressed or frustrated, and are not signals to others, but, rather a way of distracting themselves or doing something when they don't know what else to do in a frustrating situation.  Lots of times, it happens during play, when dogs don't really know what to do next when the play escalates beyond what they are comfortable with. Cut-off displays are those which signal to the other dog that no further interaction is desired.  Tongue flicks can be used here, as well as curving the body away, turning the head away, turning the back, averting the eyes.  Teaching the dog to curve its body on cue can be very useful, as can teaching it to do a turn away with the head.  Curving the body says "I'm not a threat". Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 20 1/2 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog In memory of Mike, please become an organ donor today. "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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• 01-01-2009 2:38 PM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  Chuffy Joined on 12-17-2006 UK Posts 7,400 Points 145

  Re: dealing with someone else's reactive dog Reply Contact  ^ ^ ^ Nice post   I don't usually learn that much in a week!  I feel like I understand tongue-flicks, shaking etc. much better now.  One of my dogs is a "oh gawd what do I do now sniff the ground sniff sniff sniff" kind of dog.  His behaviour makes more sense now. "Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day, but set fire to him and he is warm for the rest of his life." - Pratchett, "Jingo"

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• 01-01-2009 5:50 PM

  In reply to Chuffy

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 11,723 Points 1,020

  Re: dealing with someone else's reactive dog Reply Contact  Thanks for the attagirl.  Glad I could help. Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 20 1/2 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog In memory of Mike, please become an organ donor today. "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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