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Joe the Plumber ... (Joyce)

Last post 10-31-2008 9:59 PM by Cita. 214 replies.
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  • 10-23-2008 8:19 PM In reply to JackieG

    • ron2
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    Re: Joe the Plumber ... (Joyce)

    When I was studying how to start a business I came across maxim number 1. The boss gets paid last. That means whatever cash is there is to meet payroll for the guys out there breaking a sweat and banging their knuckles.

    ETA:

    As to the question about having a requirement or test to vote, it is not a new idea. In some countries, you have to serve in the military for at least one enlistment before getting the right to vote.

    The movie "Starship Troopers" was mostly ruined by Paul Verhoeven who entirely missed the point of Heinlein's book. Fortunately, the key actors, such as Casper Van Diem and Michael Ironside grasped the characters correctly. The point of the book was two-fold. First, it was about Rico, a goofball in high school maturing and becoming a responsible man by the things he learned serving in the military. Second, that the right to vote is precious and should be earned. In democracies, there is a tendency Heinlein called "bread and circuses." Once people realize that they can vote into law that every house will have bread and every town will have a circus, they will do so, even if it bankrupts the country to implement it. It used to be that one of the tests to vote was when you walked in the little booth. You had to read English enough to understand the ballot. No more. In some places, such as Texas, there is a Spanish translation along with it. Fine, I can see a naturalized citizen who might be more comfortable reading Spanish. The next test is that you must be 18. And a US citizen. And some want to extend the voting right to illegal aliens. Fine, I'll see if France will let me vote in their elections. What do you mean, no, they won't? Anyway, we have what's called the warm body franchise. If 18, a citizen, and not a convicted felon, if a mirror fogs up under your nose, you can vote. I don't think anyone can devise a test that everyone will agree on for voting, outside of the requirements I have noted. And maybe that's the way it should be. All men and women are created equal under the law. And it wouldn't be fair to expect everyone to solve a differential calculus problem to vote because being able to do that doesn't mean that you can wisely select a president.

    What about service to your country? You have vested interest, already shown by your direct service to the country. Well, not all of us get to serve. So that's not managable, either.

    It was once said that democracy is the worst way to run a government but not as bad as all the other ways. Heinlein said it best. Democracy is the assumption that 100 people are smarter than one. A dictatorship is the idea that one person is smarter than any of the other 100. Leaves you scratching your head.

    I don't think we're going to change anything. I think the system works somewhat okay as it is. However, we do not have a true democracy. We haev a republic. You don't vote directly for the president, the electoral college does. A state is divided into electoral districts and each electoral rep is supposed to vote per the majority vote in that district. Win enough districts and the candidate wins the state. In Texas there are 34 electoral votes. If a candidate wins 51 percent in a district and does that in 18 districts, he/she wins the state. This actually allows for better representation of minorities, depending on how many districts are awarded to a region based on population.

    But still, I encourage everyone to go and vote, whatever your choice is. It is one of the greatest things about this country. And, given the conditions of any statistical universe, exert what influence you can. Translation, when offered the chance to cut a deck of cards, go ahead and cut the deck. It may work for you.

     

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  • 10-24-2008 10:00 AM In reply to ron2

    • glenmar
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    Re: Joe the Plumber ... (Joyce)

    The US is not a democracy....I don't recall offhand what it actually is, but it was never defined as a democracy.

    And, unfortunately Ron, I think the CEO's of the giant companies have forgotten that little maxim....otherwise we wouldn't have the theives raiding workers pension funds for their own gain.l

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  • 10-26-2008 9:18 AM In reply to glenmar

    • ron2
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    Re: Joe the Plumber ... (Joyce)

    glenmar:
    And, unfortunately Ron, I think the CEO's of the giant companies have forgotten that little maxim....otherwise we wouldn't have the theives raiding workers pension funds for their own gain

    Which proves my point. Bosses that don't care for the employees soon are without a company. And one day, the incurable romantic in me hopes that some of the disenfranchised employees will encounter the looters who took their pension and they will collect it from them at the time, one way or another. There are several scenarios one can envision. Who says I can't write a happy ending?Devil

     

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  • 10-26-2008 9:39 AM In reply to ron2

    • glenmar
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    Re: Joe the Plumber ... (Joyce)

    Your future happy ending sure doesnt help the poor slob who suddenly discovers that his pension fund has vanished into the mist, along with the CEO or CFO who took his billions and laughed all the way to the off shore banks.

    On another note....there seems to be a bit of unhappiness in the Republican camp these days.

    http://news.aol.com/elections/article/palin-going-rogue-mccain-aide-says/225713

    A house without fur is not a home.
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  • 10-26-2008 11:46 AM In reply to glenmar

    Re: Joe the Plumber ... (Joyce)

    Maybe if he should have gotten to know her a bit better instead of offering her the nomination  the first time he met her. The GOP is having a crummy week for a lot of reasons, not the least of them being that  campaign worker with the "B" carved on her face who has been all over the news.  She said she was assaulted by a black Obama supporter and then the whole thing turned out to be a hideous hoax. Nobody with the IQ of a toadstool would honestly think McC had anything to do with that or would have approved of it, but it was his camp and it's not cool. Then it came out that the highest paid staff worker is SPs hairdresser/makeup person who got $22K for about two weeks work and  that the GOP spent $150K in two months on clothes, hair and make up.  Good Lord! Can the woman not pick up a lipstick at the drugstore or Target like normal people? The last one was  the recording of McC's brother Joe calling 911 to complain about being stuck in traffic and when the operator questioned him calling for a reason like that, his response was "F**k you." Makes you wonder if that might run in the family.

    Joyce

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  • 10-26-2008 11:47 AM In reply to glenmar

    • BCMixs
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    Re: Joe the Plumber ... (Joyce)

    glenmar:

    The US is not a democracy....I don't recall offhand what it actually is, but it was never defined as a democracy.

     

    Republic. Whatever THAT means.  Hmm 

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  • 10-26-2008 12:43 PM In reply to BCMixs

    • glenmar
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    Re: Joe the Plumber ... (Joyce)

    I don't know how well McC knew Palin, but it sure doesn't seem like the party did much background checking.  Stuff like using the mayors office as a campaign headquarters when she was running for lt. gov, stuff like trips for religious events charged to the state, her kids expenses charged to the state......these are all things they should have known in advance and not been surprised by.

    Good gosh, we've LIVED on less than the two week beauty treatment for a whole YEAR.  And the wardrobe?  Good heavens!  By the people, for the people??  Like I CARE what any of the candidates wear????

    A house without fur is not a home.
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  • 10-26-2008 12:51 PM In reply to glenmar

    Re: Joe the Plumber ... (Joyce)

    That whole thing with the clothes and make-up just struck me as bizarre.  I know my eyes aren't what they used to be, but she doesn't look any different to me than when she was nominated.  If I tallied up the cost of every hair/skin/make-up product I've bought in the last 30 years, plus clothes and shoes, it wouldn't make a dent in $150K ... but then I buy beauty products at the drugstore or call the Avon rep. and more than half my clothes come from thrift/consignment stores and the rest come from  places like Gap and Old Navy.   I'm just not a Saks Fifth Avenue type of girl. Smile

    Joyce

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  • 10-26-2008 12:56 PM In reply to fuzzy_dogs_mom

    • glenmar
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    Re: Joe the Plumber ... (Joyce)

    Man, what I could DO with that kind of money!  Hmmmm, pay off the cars and get those people off my back, rent a real house to live in and not have to live in this tin can another winter......get dental work done......

    And it all got blown on WARDROBE??  How wrong is that when people are doing without?  How wrong is that kind of excess when there are families who can't feed their children?  Can't get them new shoes or warm winter clothing?  Can't provide Christmas without help?

    Shaking my head......

    A house without fur is not a home.
    Glenda



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  • 10-26-2008 6:11 PM In reply to glenmar

    • dgriego
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    Re: Joe the Plumber ... (Joyce)

    glenmar:
    The US is not a democracy....I don't recall offhand what it actually is, but it was never defined as a democracy.

     

     It is more of a republic

     

    a democratic republic

     

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  • 10-27-2008 7:34 PM In reply to dgriego

    • ron2
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    Re: Joe the Plumber ... (Joyce)

    dgriego:
    a democratic republic

    Not for long, if Obama wins. While there was news of the assassination plot against Obama, there was also the release of an interview he did some years ago where he spoke at length about his "redistribution" deal. That he feels the Constitution is flawed and he wants reinterpreted to support the socialism ideals. Normally, I could say he is socialist because of his ideas, such as redistributing the wealth. But there's actual proof.

    http://theindependentview.com/

    And here's proof that he belonged to a socialist party and was allowed to run as both a socialist and a democrat for senate.

     

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=78945

    If Obama accomplishes what he wants, our way of life will disappear.

    So, it's a soi-disant democratic republic for at least another 8 days.

    He also used to be friends and even toasted a member of the PLO with whom he has had dinner on several occasions. For those of you under 40 who haven't studied history, PLO stands for Palestinian Liberation Organization, an international terrrorist group with the dedicated purpose of wiping Israel from the Earth, simply because they worship Jahweh instead of Allah. That way, they can take over Israel's land. And Obama was a dinner bud with the guy. One of the news channels has the tape but they won't release it since they want Obama to win and releasing it could seriously impact Obama's credibility, at least one would think. I could be wrong. I could be one of the few who finds something wrong with terrorists. It won't be the first time I've been out of step. I do know of a few others who don't support terrorism.

    The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb


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  • 10-27-2008 9:55 PM In reply to ron2

    • alieliza
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    Re: Joe the Plumber ... (Joyce)

    First of all, Ron, you and I both know that the president makes no decisions that would impact the citizens, let alone the consitution, in a vacuum. As much as I would love to blame the mess that this country is in (economy, war, tarnished reputation) on George W. Bush himself, Im not silly enough to actually believe that this was *entirely* his doing. Furthermore, I highly doubt that Obama is a "socialist", rather, he probably holds *some* socialist ideals, as do many, many people. The problem that I always have when learning any theory in school is that no one theory, belief, way of life, explains it all, or is the do all, be all, end all. Rather, an intelligent, well rounded individual forms their beliefs and practices having taken a little bit of everything, and putting together what works best for them. Barack Obama is highly intelligent and well rounded. He probably follows the same philosophy.

    Secondly, because I, among others, see Obama's relationship with Bill Ayers as not much more than having served together on an educational board, or that some may have acquaintances, friends, or even toast someone who may not have each of the same beliefs as you (my father is a staunch republican, I work with people on a daily basis with whom I have vastly different views and beliefs from, though, they, in all are great teachers, and I would most definitely toast them under the right circumstances, I have a very, very dear friend who is a convicted felon, but that doesn't make me a bad person or guilty by association) does not mean that we support, or do not find something wrong with terrorism, which is, IMO, what you are insinuating.

    I feel that everyone's personal beliefs, views, and idea(l)s are engrained in an individual by their life experiences, their culture, the society in which they live, the socialization they encounter from their parents and peers, etc. I am also a strong believer that though all of the above may be starkly different than my own, I have no place to judge them, and it does not make either one of us a bad person for believing differently. I cannot blame people for having experienced great hardship, and therefore, have formed beliefs that I may not agree with. Do I believe in hate and anger? No. But when my (very dear) Israeli friend tells me he hates Palestinians for what they've done to his country, I cannot argue with him, I can only understand. Were a palestinian to tell me the same thing, I would absolutely have the same sentiments. Though, we cannot pretend to understand anyone's life circumstances.

    I work with children on a daily basis who have come from cultures vastly different from my own, and vastly different from the child sitting next to them. I go to great lengths to teach them the above ideals. I have had children from Israel and Palestine in the same room, but I do my best to create a peaceful classroom.

    I think Barack Obama shares my ideals.

    All that said, it is incredibly unfair to pass judgement on someone when you don't know the background.

    This is a bit of a ramble, but, that is all.

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  • 10-28-2008 7:06 AM In reply to alieliza

    • ron2
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    Re: Joe the Plumber ... (Joyce)

    A well-written reply and you thought about it with great care.

    alieliza:
    All that said, it is incredibly unfair to pass judgement on someone when you don't know the background

    I have the right to pass judgement because I am a voting citizen and he's trying to run for top office in the country.

    I have a friend who is a convicted felon. He served 8 out of 25 to life for manslaughter. In a a few more years, he will be off parole. I acknowledge him right now and I'm not even running for president. Why can't Obama do the same, or do the rules not apply to him, and why do they not apply to him?

    alieliza:
    The problem that I always have when learning any theory in school is that no one theory, belief, way of life, explains it all, or is the do all, be all, end all. Rather, an intelligent, well rounded individual forms their beliefs and practices having taken a little bit of everything, and putting together what works best for them

    Well-written and mathematically sound. But it doesn't mean socialism is a good thing. Socialism violates the sanctity of the person for the good of the mob or the good of another. Socialism is slavery. As a word or even a set of ideals, it might have an equal weighting, such as in your statement but, imo, it is morally fiat. And yes, there are abuses in capitalism, too. The reason I prefer it to socialism is that the indivdual does count, primarily as an economic unit but also, because the mind is not enslaved or oppressed as a moral contributor, of their own free will, to the good of society.

    If I were running for president, you would be all up in my biddness and I would need to address your concerns to earn and keep your trust. Obama will answer none of these questions. Granted, he is a polished and well-trained politician. You could look him right in the eye and ask a pointed question and he can blow it off and change the subject smooth as silk.

    alieliza:
    Secondly, because I, among others, see Obama's relationship with Bill Ayers as not much more than having served together on an educational board, or that some may have acquaintances, friends, or even toast someone who may not have each of the same beliefs as you

    Bill Ayers didn't just not pay some parking tickets or have an affair or skip paying taxes one year or anything mundane like that. He was a domestic terrorist. He blew things up because he wasn't getting his way. Temper tantrums where property gets destroyed and people die. It's one thing for me to be friends or workmates with Charlie, the guy who was in for manslaughter. His case was primarily self-defense but the system cared more about the drug dealer he killed than they did about him. Anyway, Charlie didn't blow up buildings or try to harm the innocent when he wasn't getting his way. But, to be fair to Obama, it could be a problem with Chicago. Tired of terrorism? Come to Chicago and teach our young people.

    And I'm not the one trying to whitewash his past associations with terrorists, such as Ayers, the PLO, his association with fraudulent organizations, such as ACORN. And why would others feel the need to do so? I'm not insuating that you are a socialist or support terrorism but it can be hard to distinguish if you keep defending the person no matter what they've done.

    In the meantime, I've heard nothing but vitriole for Palin, or in the case of this thread, Sam the Plumber. Look how a microscope was put up the plumber's backside because all he did was dare to disagree with Obama. No one has suffered what he has for disagreeing with McCain. And that's because the media is in Obama's pocket, which is not true journalism but is propoganda and eventually, a state run info machine, like Pravda.

    By the way, Palin has answered each and every charge against her, no matter how silly, such as the clothes she was wearing. No one's picked on Obama for wearing the handmade italian suits he has. No on is complaining about the 600 mil he is spending on ads.

    Meanwhile, socialists will want to take more of your money and my money and give it to others to "even" things out. It was mentioned by another that they would have no problems giving up more money for nationalized health care so that I can finish getting my dental work done. But the govt won't be that judicious. They're going to give to people who go out and spend the money on dope.

    If we met in person and you needed something, I would most likely give you the cash directly, if I had it to give. I would give you the shirt off of my back, if you needed it. But to have it taken from me by force (of law) is something else, entirely. That is robbery. And if you wanted to rob me, you might be in for a stark surprise.

    Darn it, I'm running out of time.

    The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb


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  • 10-28-2008 8:15 AM In reply to ron2

    • brookcove
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    Re: Joe the Plumber ... (Joyce)

    If Joe Biden has any say in the matter (and one would imagine Obama is in agreement with his public statements), we'll be looking at Joe the Plumber and interviews like this one as the last great heyday of open and free speech in the US.  To wit, I just heard a recording of a campaign rally speech where he said that he and Obama had to tolerate only eight more days of criticism.  Holy cow.  That may be the first stump speech I've ever heard taking a shot at the right to question the actions and intentions of public figures.

    I just laughed at the terror and horror in the conservative camps at the election of Clinton - twice.  Presidents honestly don't have that much power without the full backing of Congress.

    But Obama will likely inherit a friendly Congress, and has emerged from the Congressional machine himself - as has his running mate.   I've heard people from overseas comment that for the first time we're looking at a TRUE leftist government in the US.  Does anyone remember the Carter administration? 

    Inheriting an unstable downturning economy, problems with aggressive mideast factions - it turned rapidly into double digit unemployment and scarce and expensive fuel prices.  Look up Carter's Sweater Speech to find his brilliant solution to that problem when people started dying in their homes of cold exposure, unable to buy heating fuel : Put on a sweater - disturbingly echoed in Obama's "inflate your tires" speech during the fuel price spike in late summer.

    Some of the scars from that administration are still evident today - our current "War on Terror" - so despised by the left today - is one of them.  I never, never say this - I really believe in voting my own views and then better luck next time if it doesn't go my way.  But that's because generally there's little difference between the candidates for the executive office - the US is historically right of center, even our "left" candidates, and our Presidents almost always reflect that.

    This is different.  This is a guy who genuinely believes that our American culture should most rightly be measured by Marxist standards and that changes should be effected to ensure the precept of "To each according to his needs, FROM each according to his means."  To wit, from that interview in 2001:

    "The Supreme Court never entered into the issues of redistribution of wealth, and sort of more basic issues of political and economic justice in this society," Obama said in the interview on Chicago Public Radio."... I think one of the tragedies of the civil rights movement was that the civil rights movement became so court-focused, I think there was a tendency to lose track of the political and organizing activities on the ground that are able to bring about the coalitions of power through which you bring about redistributive change, and in some ways we still suffer from that."

    In other words, he was talking about the fact that because MLK focused on human rights rather than raising class awareness and fomenting class warfare (count how many times Obama uses the term "Class" in his speeches), the civil rights movement missed their chance to push the US into the socialist movement that was sweeping the English-speaking/West European world at that time.  Which countries, by the way, have almost all rejected the bulk of their socialist programs and continue to move towards market-driven solutions as the basic weaknesses of nationalized programs become evident.

    Obama in that interview also expressed regret that the Constitution tends to be a document which is focused on human rights, versus economic "justice." 

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  • 10-28-2008 2:37 PM In reply to brookcove

    Re: Joe the Plumber ... (Joyce)

    Ron, Obama did denounce Bill Ayers actions.  What you don't seem able to see is that the rest of his community now accepts him as a responsible adult, a college professor and someone who gives back a great deal.  Is there any reason why Obama shouldn't treat him the same way?

    Joyce

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