Negative Reinforcement Training

• 07-19-2008 1:42 PM

  BCMixs Joined on 01-10-2008 Virginia Posts 1,643 Points 30

  Negative Reinforcement Training Reply Contact  For definition purposes:  http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/proj/nru/nr.html    I'm trying to sort this out for my dog Woobie.  He is not food motivated or toy motivated.  Training him has been a real challenge.  Inside the house, the clicker and treats work great.  But outside the house, due to his skittish nature, he's so very hyperaware that he shuts down to treats and to paying attention to me most of the time.  If I make him SUPER HUNGRY (as in not feeding him ALL DAY) he will take treats or chase a toy in a training environment maybe 40-50% of the time and after the first maybe 10-15 minutes of taking treats, it seems to satisfy his hunger enough that he shuts down again, doesn't listen to commands, doesn't take treats and just is way too aware of his surroundings to focus.  The one thing I found has some success is verbal/physical praise and reward.  If I sort of talk him through things and keep my voice and demeanor upbeat and happy, he seems to respond to that, but it's never been a consistent thing, it's hit or miss like most of the other things I've tried. We did 6 months of training with a trainer that used prong collars on all the dogs.  I, however, was committed to using the clicker and NOT the prong, and they supported that.  As other dogs moved on, we stayed in Level 1 forever.  Finally, I think the trainer took pity on us and moved us to Level 2.  After 4 months, I decided to use the prong.  It's one with the rubber caps on all the prongs and with his thick fur, there's not a painful correction as much as an attention getting one, IMHO.  The trainer did teach to do sharp tugs on the collar with the prong on.  I know now that's not the way they're supposed to be used.  In the last 2 months of training, Woobie became much more focused and moved through Level 4 very quickly.  He wouldn't pull, wouldn't be as distracted, obeyed commands much more quickly, and even tolerated children at much closer distances than before.  I honestly only had to administer a tug maybe 5 times total and can now walk him with the prong collar on but no lead attached.  Just its presence on his neck puts him in a different state of mind and he performs much better. But I'm conflicted about it.  I want him to heel and sit and be closer to children without freaking out because he wants to, not because he's avoiding a negative correction.  But, in talking with the SPCA trainer and my son who is a psychology major, there seems to be some dogs (or rats - lol) who just respond better to negative reinforcement than positive.   I'm committed to giving the clicker 6 more months of hard core training and not using the prong even when I'm frustrated or wanting to just move along more quickly.  But at the end of the year, I'm going to make a decision once and for all and just go with it and not worry about being politically correct or my dog's friend/buddy/partner/whatever and go with what works for him.  FWIW, growing up we got a 1 y.o. lab who had been obedience trained with the old traditional choke collar.  She was on 100% voice command and we had nothing to do with training her other than the person we got her from saying if she doesn't do what you command her to on the first request you give her a correction with the collar.  We never had to do that, the chain collar just hung on her neck and she did what she was told.  Even w/o the collar, off lead, she was perfect.  I don't know if it was her disposition or her training, but since that dog I have wanted a dog that was at least 50% as obedient as she was.  I just haven't been able to figure out how to make that happen with my dogs so far.  One was a tenacious airedale terrier who was stubborn as the day was long, Woobie is from possibly feral parents, very skittish and hyperaware outside his home environment, and my dear Indie is the one dog I believe has the potential to be that "dream" obedient dog I've wanted.  He's super food motivated, loves to work with me, comes when called, stays by my side and I don't envision any situation where I'd need a prong collar on him. Thoughts?  Is it a temperament thing between dogs or breeds?  Has anyone had experiences where correction-based training worked better for a particular dog than reward-based training?  Just looking for thoughts/experiences.    Yes We Can! Yes We Can! 30 lbs. by Christmas, down 5.8 lbs., 24.2 to go!!!

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• 07-19-2008 4:38 PM

  In reply to BCMixs

  corgipower Joined on 09-10-2007 new jersey Posts 788 Points 0

  Re: Negative Reinforcement Training Reply Contact I don't know that a dog responds better to correction based training so much as it is that the handler is more effective with correction based training that with reward based training. If you really want to train your dog with a clicker, I would suggest that you stop going to a trainer that uses a prong collar and find one that specializes in clicker training. It's kinda hard to get what you want from a trainer who does things differently. For working with him outside, I would do it in very small pieces. One behavior and a huge reward and be done. When that becomes easier for him, then go for two behaviors. Keep him in an area where the distractions are at the lowest level you can find. Proud member of the tenth place CISRA 2008 team!! tweleve.org corgipower.com My Dog Votes!

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• 07-20-2008 5:07 AM

  In reply to corgipower

  janetmichel3009 Joined on 11-28-2006 Beijing, China Posts 2,553 Points 370

  Re: Negative Reinforcement Training Reply Contact i for one, believe this can be true. this isnt based on anything but the differences i see between my 2 dogs. jason is a bit like your woobie, i think. i dont use prong collars. i just cant get over the "mean" look of them, but that's just me. i think a prong used correctly and in the right situation can be very effective... as with jason, i know that sometimes when he is in that hyperaware state of mind, i do have to yell out, to get his attention. in my opinion (first time dog owner who learned all her dog-training over the net, lol) different minds just work differently. i think most dogs respond better to being taught what TO do. others can learn easier if taught what NOT to do. i think maybe they just GET it more easily... Janet

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• 07-20-2008 9:51 AM

  In reply to janetmichel3009

  BCMixs Joined on 01-10-2008 Virginia Posts 1,643 Points 30

  Re: Negative Reinforcement Training Reply Contact The SPCA class we're enrolled in now is clicker/positive reinforcement.  I stopped going to the prong collar guy last fall for a number of reasons, not the least of which was the demonstration he did with his Malinois that was VERY HARSH, VERY PAINFUL, and the dog looked downright scared.  NOT what I want my relationship with Woobie to be.  He's not fearful or shut down with the prong, I watch very closely for that.  I'm committed to doing the positive reinforcement training from step one all over again for at least 6 months before I make a decision one way or the other.  In the end, I may just use the prong collar to walk him more controllably and reduce the wear and tear on my arms and shoulder.  But for now, it's locked away and I'm at least going to give this our all. I sometimes think he needs Ritalin or to be starving before training sessions.  We went to the dog park this morning before breakfast and he had 100% focus and recall on me once he realized there were treats in my fanny pack.  Of course, the dog park is the only place outside the house where he is more relaxed than in the house, it's heaven to him.  The key for me is to figure out a plan for translating the attention and relaxed state he has in those 2 places to the rest of the world.  I hope the trainer can help me with that.    Thanks for your input.  Yes We Can! Yes We Can! 30 lbs. by Christmas, down 5.8 lbs., 24.2 to go!!!

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• 07-20-2008 11:45 AM

  In reply to BCMixs

  corgipower Joined on 09-10-2007 new jersey Posts 788 Points 0

  Re: Negative Reinforcement Training Reply Contact It takes them a while to generalize the training and behave and be calm and responsive in multiple places. The more places you take him, the better, and with each new place you basically start over with the foundation basics. Each time it gets a little easier and you can proceed a little faster until one day he realizes that the behaviors are expected of him regardless of the location. Proud member of the tenth place CISRA 2008 team!! tweleve.org corgipower.com My Dog Votes!

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• 07-20-2008 1:43 PM

  In reply to BCMixs

  ron2 Joined on 09-10-2007 far north central Texas Posts 10,234 Points 505

  Re: Negative Reinforcement Training Reply Contact I think some of the answer is in your description. Work first in areas of great success then transfer to places of greater distraction. As for the prong, used properly, they are not torture devices, no matter how draconian they look. And you dog may be food motivated sometimes but not all the time. So, be flexible. When food isn't doing it, find what interests the dog most and make that the reward. Even if it makes the training session last longer. Once he understands that listening to you is the best and easiest path to his rewards, then, I think, the training will be easier. For my BIL's Aussie, the greatest reward is the chance to herd and cut the ball. For my dog, it's these cheap little baked treats of flour and meat flavoring. He will do multi-variable calculus for those. And the mother lode is meat. For that, he will audition for the Bolshoi Ballet. Granted, those are superlative statements but they depict how strongly he goes for those rewards. Your dog may be different. Or, you have to up the ante. If the regular training treats aren't working, try the drippy roast beef or some lightly sauteed liver, cut into little morsels that allow a quick bite and gulp. Not all dogs are like mine and normally happy with store bought treats. Some of them need the extra incentive of warm, savory meat. It has worked for me but then, I don't play fair. I aim to have the greatest rewards, carte blanche, no question. The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb

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• 07-20-2008 3:23 PM

  In reply to ron2

  corgipower Joined on 09-10-2007 new jersey Posts 788 Points 0	Re: Negative Reinforcement Training Reply Contact ron2: He will do multi-variable calculus for those. And the mother lode is meat. For that, he will audition for the Bolshoi Ballet. That is a seriously talented dog ya got there, ron ;) Proud member of the tenth place CISRA 2008 team!! tweleve.org corgipower.com My Dog Votes!
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• 07-20-2008 7:39 PM

  In reply to ron2

  BCMixs Joined on 01-10-2008 Virginia Posts 1,643 Points 30

  Re: Negative Reinforcement Training Reply Contact ron2: I think some of the answer is in your description. Work first in areas of great success then transfer to places of greater distraction.   This is what we've done in our desensitization exercises and it has worked on his reactivity to fearful stimuli, I guess I just have to be patient and keep working toward the focus, Rome wasn't built in a day.     The big thing that has worked is when he's around dogs.  That's enormously calming, comforting and confidence building for him.  It doesn't even have to be Indie as much anymore, he was very brave with a child recently when we were at the lake with his aussie friends.  So, I just keep trying to find the most positive experiences I can for him and work the training into those experiences.   ron2:  find what interests the dog most and make that the reward  I think that's the key.  In fact, it was our first homework task for the class.  Find the treats that rate top of the chart for our dog and bring those to the next class.  What I'm working on doing is finding the 3 or 4 top treats and toys that he loves and then I'm going to mix it up when working with him so he never knows which great thing is coming next.  I hope it will work to sustain his interest a little longer.  Someone told me to try Romano cheese, it's hard, smelly and can be cut into tiny pieces.  I know ball park franks work pretty well for him but wreck havoc on his stomach, so those will be reserved for class only and he's working well with Pet Botanical training treats.  I have to find a small soft squeaky toy  to toss for him because he likes those.  I have actually tried steak and london broil, he's not so interested.  Weird dog!     If we could have a play session at the end of class, he'd LOVE that, but unfortunately, we're in a class with 4 other reactive, dog aggressive dogs.  So I don't see that happening.  Yes We Can! Yes We Can! 30 lbs. by Christmas, down 5.8 lbs., 24.2 to go!!!

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• 07-21-2008 11:55 AM

  In reply to BCMixs

  tashakota Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 2,673 Points 45

  Re: Negative Reinforcement Training Reply Contact If Woobie is hyper-aware of everything, then it's either because he's nervous/anxious about his environment or it's because he's always done that and it's default behavior for him.  The fact that london broil has no affect on him when he's like that tells me it's because of nervous/anxious and not the other.  I see this alot the first day of agility class with new dogs where the owners have not done a lot of training with their dogs.   There is just so much going on and the dog has shut down but not in the way most people think.  A shut down dog can still walk, forge ahead on leash, and go where you want them to go, but not taking food is a clear sign the dog is in over it's head especially if the dog will work for food in more comfortable and familiar environments. Best thing to do is to get Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt and read it.  She has a great section in it about rewarding a dog for looking at those things that make it nervous.  So instead of trying to force a dog to look at you when it's nervous about it's environment, you reward it for calmly looking at the environment.  The "Look at That" game.  This helps to change the dog's perception and emotions about the environment instead of trying to make them do something you want which does not address the dog's concerns. Leslie and the kids..

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• 07-21-2008 12:12 PM

  In reply to BCMixs

  CoBuHe Joined on 08-03-2007 Southeast Texas Posts 1,034 Points 35

  Re: Negative Reinforcement Training Reply Contact BCMixs: there seems to be some dogs (or rats - lol) who just respond better to negative reinforcement than positive. That's Heidi in a nutshell.  She is the first dog I have ever had who required some NR in order to "get it."  She is as hard tempered as they come.  Now that we understand each other...she is one big sweetheart. "I think dogs are the most amazing creatures; they give unconditional love. For me they are the role model for being alive." Gilda Radner

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• 07-21-2008 12:16 PM

  In reply to tashakota

  BCMixs Joined on 01-10-2008 Virginia Posts 1,643 Points 30

  Re: Negative Reinforcement Training Reply Contact It's funny you mention that game, it was brought up in our book discussion group.  Other reactive dog owners have had good success with it, I'll have to read up on that one.  I suspect it's a combination default/anxious behavior because he's really not that into food.  He won't eat much unless he receives ALOT of exercise and sometimes turns off to food indoors also.  He doesn't like anything sweet and like I said, beef is not big for him, everything I've tried thus far has been hit and miss.  The good things are that he's taking treats more often in outdoor situations that we go to alot besides the dog park and the training is in the SPCA where we've gone to 2 flyball sessions, so he will hopefully recognize the space and not be as reticent there.  Given the suspicion that his parents were feral, I do have to understand that there probably is a genetic level that he's just not going to get past and the hyperawareness will probably always be his nature.  I just want to keep trying and get him as far as he can go.  He's not unhappy in new situations like he used to be, just a bit more skittish and unfocused.  But we keep plugging away.  I think he's still young enough and being exposed to new places often enough still that there's still progress possible.  Yes We Can! Yes We Can! 30 lbs. by Christmas, down 5.8 lbs., 24.2 to go!!!

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• 07-21-2008 6:43 PM

  In reply to tashakota

  Cassidys Mom Joined on 09-02-2007 SF Bay Area Posts 796 Points 100

  Re: Negative Reinforcement Training Reply Contact tashakota: Best thing to do is to get Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt and read it.  She has a great section in it about rewarding a dog for looking at those things that make it nervous.  So instead of trying to force a dog to look at you when it's nervous about it's environment, you reward it for calmly looking at the environment.  The "Look at That" game.  This helps to change the dog's perception and emotions about the environment instead of trying to make them do something you want which does not address the dog's concerns. Control Unleashed is an amazing book! I took Keefer to a CU workshop the weekend before last, and pretty much did LAT with him all day. He's normally very distracted and barky around other dogs on leash and in class settings, and we was terrific all day - focused, working with me, and he only barked a couple of times. Dena v TeMar 9/12/04 Keefer (Lakota v TeMar) 8/25/05 Cassidy 6/8/00-10/4/04

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• 07-21-2008 6:56 PM

  In reply to tashakota

  jenns Joined on 09-10-2007 NE New Jersey Posts 1,076 Points 10

  Re: Negative Reinforcement Training Reply Contact tashakota: Best thing to do is to get Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt and read it.  She has a great section in it about rewarding a dog for looking at those things that make it nervous.  So instead of trying to force a dog to look at you when it's nervous about it's environment, you reward it for calmly looking at the environment.  The "Look at That" game.  This helps to change the dog's perception and emotions about the environment instead of trying to make them do something you want which does not address the dog's concerns. I have the book and I have to say the "look at that" game has been the only thing that has worked in any way for Zack and his anxiety about his environment.  We still have a long way to go before his emotions about the environment have really changed, per se,  but looking back at me to get his treat after he has looked at the stressor has replaced lunging, growling and barking. Fabulous book! Zoe - 3 year old chocolate and tan miniature dachshund Zack - 1 year old toy manchester terrier Ally - 9 year old black and white domestic shorthair cat

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