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NILF Help!

Last post 07-14-2008 10:25 PM by Cassidys Mom. 172 replies.
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  • 07-01-2008 6:14 AM In reply to snownose

    Re: NILF Help!

    Admin speaking....

    Because my warning was ignored, let me say this.  Editing posts is no skin off my nose, but each red-ink edit does count towards a suspension for the poster.  I would like anyone posting to this thread to remember that, particularly those who already have an edit or two on the books.  3 edits and I discuss account status with the other admins, period - I have rules to follow too.  If you don't want that to happen, please read my warning a few posts above this one and heed it.

    Thanks.
     

    Kate - Dog.community Administrator
    Jokers to the right.


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  • 07-01-2008 2:00 PM In reply to Cassidys Mom

    Re: NILF Help!

    Cassidys Mom:
    You also haven't responded to Chuffy's question about Suzanne Clothier and NILIF. Did you read the Leadership Basics article on the link I provided? I'd post it here to make it really easy for you, but her site is copywrited and that would be illegal.

    DPU, I really am curious how you reconcile your distaste for NILIF and your respect for Suzanne Clothier's relationship based training when she is a proponent of NILIF techniques - they are an integral part of developing that relationship. I think it could be a useful discussion for anyone reading this thread who wants to understand NILIF and the reasoning behind it, and I don' t understand why you won't talk about it.

    I can't paste her articles here due to copywrite laws, but I can link to the site, and even paraphrase the basic concepts, which she discussed in the seminar I attended. In the Leadership Basics article on her website (www.flyingdogpress.com), she talks about how a leader is able to control, direct and inhibit behaviors through resource control. The first step would be to list the top resources (as defined by your dog), and your dog's every known behavior. It's important to note that this is not a method to teach new behaviors, it relys on using behaviors the dog already knows. You would request one or more behaviors before providing the resource. That's NILIF.

    In the Attitude Adjustment Program article she refers to controlling resources as well, and providing them only when the dog is cooperating. There is "no free lunch", he must earn what he wants. That's NILIF.

    In her article It Takes a Pack to Raise a Puppy she talks about how puppies need to learn to inhibit impulses and develop self control. That's exactly what NILIF does.

     

     

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  • 07-08-2008 3:52 PM In reply to Cassidys Mom

    Re: NILF Help!

    YIKES!  I am sorry I actually created this thread to be honest.  I understand strong opinions, but some of this thread has gotten pretty hostile, which makes me sad to see and feel responsible. 

    I am still committed to NILF.  Mind you NILF with Ari is VERY limited.  And to be honest our relationship has grown by leaps and bounds since we brought her home - and I do contribute this to NILF. 

    Ari needs boundaries and direction.  I cannot do this with her by letting her just do as she pleases and just trying to capture the good moments in some fashion (I do mind you, I tend to walk around with my clicker these days!), because frankly I have enough tooth mark scars, bruises and scratches and I just looked and realized my latest bite mark may be infected.  While this may be all normal puppy behavior, I'm down 2 pairs of work pants, 3 work shirts, PJ bottoms, a night gown, and 2 night shirts compliments of her chompers.  Her biting has gotten better since asking her to do more for me.  I am so PLEASED when she does what I ask, that she down right wiggles her little bottom to have gotten it "right" and made me happy - and then she gets what she wants on top of that as well. 

    Byy setting the standard for Ari that I wish her to sit or down to receive attention from me, the biting has become less.  I don't expect this all the time, I give attention with her standing, but only if I initiate (which is many many many many times throughout the day!)  I am now slowly instituting that when I come home after being away for awhile (though she comes to work with me now more often than not), that I want her to get a toy to "give" (since she is ALWAYS nutty when I get home and frisky to no end, hence how I've lost so much clothing to her chompers!)  I'm doing this by coming home WITH a toy to give her putting it in her mouth saying "YOURS!" then asking for GIVE then telling her to "go get it".  We usually play fetch for 10-15 minutes then she's a lot calmer! 

    I ask her to sit for her meals because before she would try to knock over the dish in her excitement.  Now she just sits patiently for the OK from me to eat.  I "make" her sit for about 3 seconds once the dish is down.  She does not need to sit, by my command, for her first pee break in the morning or if she whines to go out and lets us know (and when she lets us know we make a celebration of it!).  But other times I do ask her to sit nicely to have the leash put on. We take her out many times during the day and a potty break in the middle of the night - though we're thinking she no longer needs this she just seems to want to sleep through the night now. 

    Ari is a very PUSHY dog.  She wants what she wants when she wants it, and that includes biting at me and my clothing, getting on the couch (she's not allowed and never has been) and now she's trying for the counters and tables since she's grown quite a bit.  However, since instituting modified NILF Ari and I have a MUCH improved relationship - she has my heart and I know I have hers.  I give her attention a gazzilion times a day, but NOT when she is being obnoxious about it, and it stops the second she starts being obnxious (aka getting playful-bitey with me).  I also do clicker training with her, and I NEVER EVER EVER ask her to do something that is beyond her level - so as such all I really expect out of her right now is to sit or do "touch" (she loves to touch any object I ask her to). 

    I do not see what's cruel about this. I never with-hold food from Ari, I typically do not ask her to sit for breakfast since she has gone more hours without food for that meal than any other.  I never with-hold water (it's freely accessible no matter where she is.  And believe me I NEVER with hold affection or fun (I have not taken away her toys since it does help with her to discourage any other type of chewing and it's unnecessary and would be confusing for her - setting her up for failure). 

    I try my hardest to set her up for success each and every time we interact or experience something new - she never fails, b/c if she does fail that just means she wasn't ready for the situation, the command, etc etc and as her human I put her in that losing situation - so I roll up that newspaper give myself a few good whacks and remedy the situation.  

    Ari is not stressed, unless you count chronic tail wagging (her tail is now longer and um getting quite whip-like!), happy sparkling eyes, a coat that shines, a healthy appetite, bounce to her step, as being stressed.  Ari a few weeks ago had me crying, feeling lost/helpless and out of control of the situation.  Creating a more structured environment has helped us both and Ari is really shining now.  Our bond is better, her out of control biting moments are easier to manage (and happen with less frequency).  Ari a few weeks ago WAS stressed to some degree (I can see this now much more clearly, now that she's so darned happy go lucky all the time!)- and it's been these last couple of weeks that I have seen such progress in her and I know NILF AND clicker training is helping with that, for both of us. 

    We started introducing NILF once she was comfortable in the home (which took no time at all, Ari is the type of dog that seems to adjust to new situations relatively easily).  I think Ari will always need some level of NILF - but this does not mean she will ever be deprived.  She's quite happily spoiled and has me very well trained, but there are certain boundaries she needs to respect and NILF is helping Ari and I work on communicating what those boundaries are and how I want her to behave. 
     

    ~Sharon

    Proudly owned by Ari a 5 month old flat-coated retriever! Stick out tongue
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  • 07-09-2008 12:05 AM In reply to the_gopher

    Re: NILF Help!

    dont worry... been there, done that (starting a thread that ended in a "war").... it happens... :)

    and good for you two that NILIF is working out so well....

    Janet
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  • 07-09-2008 12:19 AM In reply to the_gopher

    Re: NILF Help!

    Sharon, it sounds like things are going GREAT! Just keep doing what you're doing - it's obviously working! Yes 

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  • 07-09-2008 7:01 AM In reply to Cassidys Mom

    Re: NILF Help!

    Thanks Cassidy's Mom and Janet :) Yes it is helping a lot.  Maybe something else would have helped a lot, but NILF and clicker training are the two methods I'm most comfortable with. 

    Is Ari perfect, HECK no, this morning she's in absolute nutty bitey mode, the worst I've seen in awhile.  I'm thinking it's because it's cool this morning and the last couple days have been very humid - so she's wanted NOTHING to do with play, walking or anything else.  Couldn't even go swimming because passing thunderstorm kept looming!  So she has 2 days worth of pent up puppy energy right now.  Thankfully no clothing has been lost - yet.  

    We're still looking for a trainer - having my SO call the lady I had cancelled on to go with someone else who no showed on us!  And I'm hoping that's the missing piece to this puzzle of figuring out how best to communicate to Ari what is and is not acceptable.  

    Right now we're working on a new verbal command "put a toy in it" for those bitey moments (while putting a toy in her mouth).  I realized both my SO and I were saying this, so I figure heck let's make that the new command.  Maybe it's a bit wordy, but we shall see...when she's full out bitey, toys do not distract her, leaving her doesn't help, so we've got a ways to go yet but things are much better around here and for that I'm grateful.  After all I really don't have the money to replace my wardrobe! 

    ~Sharon

    Proudly owned by Ari a 5 month old flat-coated retriever! Stick out tongue
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  • 07-09-2008 8:06 AM In reply to the_gopher

    Re: NILF Help!

    "put a toy in it" hehe, i like it, it's cute! dont worry about it being wordy. dogs understand quite a lot! when i say "dont even think about it!" they will stop whatever they were thinking of doing and give me this guilty look, as if to say: "how did you know...." Embarrassed hehehe and i didnt even train actively... haha...

    Janet
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  • 07-09-2008 9:25 AM In reply to DPU

    Re: NILF Help!

      I can see dogs developing many futre problems when the dog owner ignores or dismisses this truth about NILIF. 

    I've never heard of any dogs ever developing problems from a NILIF program; heard of lots of messed-up dogs being fixed by a NILIF program. Where is this Negative Punishment coming from? I'm not feeding or petting or even paying any attention to my dogs right now- are they suffering because I'm "withholding" stuff from them? it's nonsense. In their minds if they act in certain ways they sometimes get good stuff; they aren't going around thinking "well she's not giving me treats right now what have I done wrong oh the stress".

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  • 07-09-2008 10:15 AM In reply to the_gopher

    • CoBuHe
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on 08-03-2007
    • Southeast Texas
    • Posts 1,034
    • Points 35

    Re: NILF Help!

    the_gopher:

    Ari needs boundaries and direction.  Creating a more structured environment has helped us both and Ari is really shining now. 

    Bingo!  Shining light bulb!  These are the majic phrases. 

    Sharon, please do not let the competitiveness of this thread hinder you from practicing NILF.  Even if you use only "sit" prior to her getting what she wants...that is enough.  Its a very simple yet empowering practice for the dog owner, and it is by no means stressful for the dog.  She will (and sounds like already has) learn that she needs to do what YOU want before she gets what SHE wants.

     

    "I think dogs are the most amazing creatures; they give unconditional love. For me they are the role model for being alive." Gilda Radner
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  • 07-09-2008 10:39 AM In reply to CoBuHe

    Re: NILF Help!

     CoBuHe - If anything I'm more determined to prove NILF helps owners and dogs alike Stick out tongue but I'm stubborn and thickheaded at times.  Ari, while still spastic and out of control bitey at times has shown such great improvements.  And if she has shown ANY stress lately, it's been the humidity - which is why I'm thinking she was out of control last night and this morning, b/c there was a humidity break and all that pent up energy came loose.  A 14 week old high energy breed with two days worth of pent up energy is NOT a pretty site.  No humans or clothing were seriously harmed, thank goodness lol.  See look, since instituting NILF I am more able to laugh at this situation when she is completely nutty and bratty!  Well I might not be laughing at the time, I'm am trying to redirect her behaviors then and project as much calm as I can - afterwards I'm not pulling my hair out feeling like such a failure to my dog - I laugh, move on and try to think of ways to predict weather changes and how to put her in a better situation where she can expend the energy elsewhere in an appropriate fashion! 

    NILF just makes sense to me and my SO.  I only ask Ari to do things she is solid on, which right now is touch and sit.  We're still working on getting this down business, give and off.  Though 'off' seems to be dawning on her in certain scenerios, except when it comes to the couch.  We'll get there though!   Give is going to be a VERY slow process with Ari. 

    Ari doesn't suffer in our house and I find it a little presumptuous to think she is solely based upon the fact we practice NILF at home with her.  If you live nearby come on over and meet Ari and THEN please tell me how she is left wanting or stressed out!  Beware, she'll lick you to death - and yes we're still working on this jumping up thing too! 

    ~Sharon

    Proudly owned by Ari a 5 month old flat-coated retriever! Stick out tongue
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  • 07-09-2008 10:48 AM In reply to the_gopher

    Re: NILF Help!

    hehe.. dont worry about... there's always a stink about SOMETHING on forums... you know you're doing the right thing... :)

    Janet
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  • 07-09-2008 11:03 AM In reply to the_gopher

    • cakana
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    • Cathy in Northern CA
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    Re: NILF Help!

    the_gopher:
    A 14 week old high energy breed with two days worth of pent up energy is NOT a pretty site. 

    I don't want to scare you, but even an 8 y.o. with pent up energy isn't pretty. It's blazing hot here and the air is horrible with all the fires nearby, so exercise has been limited for us, and I can see the affect it's having on my dogs - ugh!

    I think you're making great progress and as you said, the fact that you can find humor in this speaks volumes about the positive changes. Good for you and Ari!!

    ~ Cathy ~
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  • 07-09-2008 11:37 AM In reply to cakana

    • CoBuHe
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on 08-03-2007
    • Southeast Texas
    • Posts 1,034
    • Points 35

    Re: NILF Help!

    Boy, isn't that the truth.  Pent up energy in any age needs to be released or all havoc will ensue.  LOL  And, I agree...progress is being made by lil' Ari.

    Cathy...that haze is awful, I feel for you.  I travel to the Bay Area generally on a monthly basis and the air is really tough right now.  Sad

    "I think dogs are the most amazing creatures; they give unconditional love. For me they are the role model for being alive." Gilda Radner
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  • 07-09-2008 12:48 PM In reply to CoBuHe

    • cakana
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 09-10-2007
    • Cathy in Northern CA
    • Posts 7,006
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    Re: NILF Help!

    CoBuHe:

    Cathy...that haze is awful, I feel for you.  I travel to the Bay Area generally on a monthly basis and the air is really tough right now.  Sad

    It's breaking my heart and I'm not even in the thick of it. I've lived here all my life and we've always had summer fires, but nothing like this. I'm pretty sure the Bay Area is faring better (cooler, cleaner air). We're in the valley here and once this gunk settles in, it takes a lot to move it. No one wants to see the winds blow because that'll make the fires worse, but....yeah, Sad.

    I was going to take Sassy for a run early (6ish) this morning, but it was already in the high 70s and she just looked so comfy sleeping that I didn't want to bug her...okay, that's a lie, I really was just too lazy myself Stick out tongue

    ~ Cathy ~
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  • 07-09-2008 5:41 PM In reply to cakana

    Re: NILF Help!

    Very true guys,ANY age with pent up energy is scary Smile.  I won't mind her pent up energy so much once we move past this "I'm crazy puppy dog whose only focus to expel her energy is to bite at her owners and their clothing" stage yeesh!  But yeah, I wish we could do swimming at least, but the scattered thunderstorms have me thinking twice about that. 
    ~Sharon

    Proudly owned by Ari a 5 month old flat-coated retriever! Stick out tongue
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