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NRC recommended amount of protein; too low?

Last post 06-09-2008 9:01 PM by jessies_mom. 10 replies.
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  • 06-08-2008 9:05 PM

    NRC recommended amount of protein; too low?

       I've always worried about Jessie getting enough protein since she can't have foods with higher protein because of her food allergies, so I add enough meat or fish to her food so that she gets 35 to 42% protein daily.  Recently I did some number crunching using the NRC's recommended amount of protein for a dog her size. She should have about 39 grams of protein daily. Her current food is 23% protein and has about 25 grams of protein per 110 grams, which is about a cup. She gets 2 cups a day, so that would be about 50 grams of protein. According to the NRC, she's getting more than enough protein from her dry food and I don't need to add extra. I thought the NRC's numbers were preferable to the AAFCO, but does that amount of protein seem low, or are many of us, including myself, feeding excess protein?

    Life isn't about waiting through the storm; it's about learning to dance in the rain.

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  • 06-08-2008 10:53 PM In reply to jessies_mom

    Re: NRC recommended amount of protein; too low?

     I've been doing a home-cooked diet according to NRC calculations for 3 years now and have done a fair amount of reading and discussing on lists about the numbers and issues around them.

    On lists which are run by nutrition experts (like K9Kitchen and TPC), the consensus is always that for a healthy dog you can easily go to 2x (or even higher) the NRC recommended amount of protein - this seems to be the preferred way (and what dog would disagree!), as long as everything is balanced out properly. [Note: this obviously applies to a home-prepared diet, not commercial foods.]

    So IMHO the NRC so-called "optimal nutritional requirement" is a tad on the low side if you're keen to achieve glowing good health and your dog does not have any health issues that require a restriction of proteins.

    Another factor to consider is quality and bio-availability of protein. However good the kibble ... surely nothing beats fresh meat.

    I would also say that protein is in excess only if the dog's system cannot utilize all of it or struggles with breaking down that amount of it. Another example: my dogs cannot break down read meat efficiently and safely in larger amounts - therefore anything beyond a teaspoon of red meat is 'in excess'. They do not struggle, however, with utilizing white meat or fish - oh no, it fuels them very nicely. :) I also know that if I gave them only the NRC-rec. amount (9g of protein per day for a 4kg dog) they would struggle and their metabolisms would not be running at optimum.

    If I was feeding mainly a dry food diet, I would always 'enhance' it with fresh foods - mainly meat/fish/egg plus some vegies and fruit.

    Britta and the fussy toy poodles


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  • 06-09-2008 11:25 AM In reply to FussyPoodles

    • brookcove
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    Re: NRC recommended amount of protein; too low?

    What you are looking at there is what is required for good health. When my son had "failure to thrive", I worked with my pediatrician to get a minimum amount of certain nutrients into him, which would keep him strong and healthy.  Not just minimums to keep body and soul together, but enough to allow for growth and activity.  I imagine it's the same thing.  And then anything over that was frosting, though I had to balance requirements for other nutrients that could not be provided through foods that offered a lot of protein (he was a human child, so he had a need for the nutrients in grains, for instance).

    I can't wait to get my book with the 06 update.  My materials are from the last one and I hear they've made some changes. 

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  • 06-09-2008 1:20 PM In reply to brookcove

    Re: NRC recommended amount of protein; too low?

    brookcove:
    What you are looking at there is what is required for good health.
     

       Becca, there's a minimal requirement and a recommended allowance; I was using the recommended allowance. I have the book "Optimal Nutrition" by Monica Segal, and it has the 2006 NRC numbers. The book is $25, considerably less than the 200 plus dollars the NRC book sells for. I have been basing Jessie's protein requirements on studies done by Eukanuba, Purina, and Royal Canin and don't have any plans for changing that since she's doing so good. Last fall I met someone with a dog that was 10, about 6 months older than Jessie. She had started feeding her dog one of the lower protein senior foods when it was 7, as per her vet's advice. The dog had very little muscle mass and not nearly the energy that Jessie had; I felt sorry for it.


     

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  • 06-09-2008 1:30 PM In reply to FussyPoodles

    Re: NRC recommended amount of protein; too low?

    FussyPoodles:
    On lists which are run by nutrition experts (like K9Kitchen and TPC), the consensus is always that for a healthy dog you can easily go to 2x (or even higher) the NRC recommended amount of protein - this seems to be the preferred way (and what dog would disagree!), as long as everything is balanced out properly. [Note: this obviously applies to a home-prepared diet, not commercial foods.]
     

      I recently joined K9Kitchen but haven't posted much, but I enjoy reading the threads. Jessie is currently on a commercial kibble supplemented with fresh foods as per one of Monica's booklets but I'm thinking of going to all home cooking. She has special needs; many food allergies and high amounts of zinc and linoleic acid acid, so I would have either Monica or Mordanna formulate a diet for her. The neat thing about having the NRC numbers is I can see if she's getting what she needs with the amount of kibble I'm feeding her. For example, she gets 2 cups of the current food a day and according to the recommended allowances is very close to getting what she needs for vitamins and minerals. This is in addition to the cooked or raw food I give her.

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  • 06-09-2008 1:36 PM In reply to jessies_mom

    Re: NRC recommended amount of protein; too low?

    keep in mind that the crude protein % on a bag of kibble is from all ingredients- including grains. Protein from non-meat-sources isn't fully bioavailable to your dog. There have also been some studies showing that dogs fed higher amounts of protein than "necessary" suffered fewer injuries.

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  • 06-09-2008 2:55 PM In reply to jessies_mom

    • brookcove
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    Re: NRC recommended amount of protein; too low?

     Janice, I'm working with Mordy this week on Lynn's diet and I've been very pleased so far.  I've got multiple issues I want to balance with Lynn, so it is nice to get an outside opinion on that. 

    I've got spreadsheets for my other dogs, and I'll be updating those when I get my book.  I'm on k9kitchen but I've never read Monica Segal's material.  I have my sources for nutrition data.  Wink  But it will be nice to have it all in one place, and it looks like there's some interesting topics. 

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  • 06-09-2008 4:12 PM In reply to mudpuppy

    Re: NRC recommended amount of protein; too low?

    mudpuppy:

    There have also been some studies showing that dogs fed higher amounts of protein than "necessary" suffered fewer injuries.

     

       In the Purina protein study, senior dogs were fed 16.5% and 34% protein; the dogs in the later group lived longer. The 16.5% is slightly lower than the minimum of 18% for adult maintenance set by the AAFCO.
     

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  • 06-09-2008 4:32 PM In reply to jessies_mom

    Re: NRC recommended amount of protein; too low?

    Okay, I don't know what NRC is and would like to know more.

    Can you explain it to me and where I can find the information for my lab?  He is 19 months old, moderately active (either run 2 miles or swim 1/2 hour daily), between 68 and 70 lbs.  He is not bony but lean with good muscle definition.

    How much protein do you guys think he would need? 

     

    P.S. - - I just got him Canine Caviar chicken and millet (puppy formula, crude protein = 31 and fat = 19).  He is getting some loose stools now and then on this food (if I add more stuff, like what I list below, he would then have really runny stools).  Do you think it is because of the high fat content?  When I give him dry food such as Canidae ALS or Healthwise Chicken and Oatmeal (crude protein = 24 to 25 and fat = 14 to 15) and add fresh foods like raw eggs, homecooked food or canned 95% meat and veggies and fish oil with vitamin e, he never get loose stools.  So........ right now he is rotating between two bags (one Canine Caviar and one Canidae ALS) every week until we finish the Canine Caviar, which I happen to like because of the high omega 6 and omega 3.

     

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  • 06-09-2008 8:39 PM In reply to brookcove

    Re: NRC recommended amount of protein; too low?

    brookcove:

     

    I've got spreadsheets for my other dogs, and I'll be updating those when I get my book. 

     

      Starting a spreadsheet seemed intimidating, but it's really simple. Monica's books are well written and easy to understand; I followed her instructions for converting Jessie's weight to kilograms and then to a figure to multiply the NRC values by to get the values for her specific weight. Since you're on K9Kitchen, you probably know that her diets are in the mid 30's percent range for protein for healthy dogs, and she follows NRC guidelines, so I was surprised to learn that according to their values, Jessie's getting enough grams of protein from a kibble that's 23% protein.
     

    Life isn't about waiting through the storm; it's about learning to dance in the rain.

    Janice
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  • 06-09-2008 9:01 PM In reply to NikoAwesomo

    Re: NRC recommended amount of protein; too low?

    NikoAwesomo:

    Okay, I don't know what NRC is and would like to know more.


     

    http://sites.nationalacademies.org/nrc/index.htm

     http://dels.nas.edu/dels/faq.shtml

      Both Monica Segal and Sabina Contreras (Mordanna) use their values instead of the AAFCO guidelines for formulating diets.
     

    NikoAwesomo:

    Can you explain it to me and where I can find the information for my lab?  He is 19 months old, moderately active (either run 2 miles or swim 1/2 hour daily), between 68 and 70 lbs.  He is not bony but lean with good muscle definition.

    How much protein do you guys think he would need?

       This is the 2006 edition of their book, "Nutrient Requirements 0f Dogs and Cats, for $265;

    http://www.amazon.com/Nutrient-Requirements-Dogs-Domestic-Animals/dp/0309086280/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213058843&sr=1-1

      Monica Segal's book "Optimal Nutrition" has the values for dogs, and it's $25;

    http://www.monicasegal.com/catalog/product.php?cPath=25&products_id=101

       Her book is available on other websites too. She explains how to use the tables to find the nutrient values for your dog. As to why your pup has loose stools, it's true that some dogs don't tolerate a lot of fat in their diet. Kibbles in which  corn is high in the ingredient list (right after the meat meal), give Jessie loose stools. Maybe he has a food intolerance (different than a food allergy) to one if the ingredients in Canine Caviar.
     

     

     
     

    Life isn't about waiting through the storm; it's about learning to dance in the rain.

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