Spinoff from Elitist Attitude - Canine Breeding vs. Human Breeding

• 05-07-2008 11:36 PM

  In reply to FourIsCompany

  brookcove Joined on 09-10-2007 Semora, North Carolina, USA Posts 4,686 Points 335

  Re: Spinoff from Elitist Attitude - Canine Breeding vs. Human Breeding Reply Contact FourIsCompany: (To tell you the truth, I don't even know what people are arguing about! LOL I don't see the problem)    Here's from the original post: But...my opinion is this:  To the best of our knowledge, dogs do not fall in love, or at least not the way people do.  For better or worse, we let that emotional attachment override the "scientific" ideals of breeding when it comes to ourselves, but those reputable people who breed dogs can make a distanced, unemotional assessment about which 2 dogs would be the best match, breeding wise. [emphasis added] I say "for better or worse" because I can see, from an objective point of view, that maybe we should consider health conditions more thoroughly than we do when having kids, but that is a HUGE can of worms to open.  History, and a human's capacity for evil, would suggest that it is too easy to go too far in deciding who should breed...or even live. We've touched, in this thread, then, the intangibles that lead humans to value each other, how those values expand to change our world via technology, how we use and abuse technology as we interact with all life on earth, and what that for better or worse actually is and where that kind of thinking might start (the "can of worms"). Directly addressing the statement in bold, which lies at the heart of the issue, I think, it's my contention that the intangibles that make us what we are, enable us to make informed choices about the animals in our care.  I beleive those same characteristics also release us to follow those intangibles (love, self-sacrifice, joy, friendship, respect, intellectual growth, trust, faith) in our interactions with each other - and this is an adaptive trait that ensures that the future of the human race will be one of continued intellectual, emotional, and spiritual growth. Becca Shouse: Irena Farm, Semora, NC Cord, Ted, Gus, Zhi, Maggie, Lynn, Lu, Min and Tully Waiting: Bubo & Ben "We didn't have a phone, and we couldn't call you!" Helen, AIDS orphan. Don't let them die of ignorance - WorldHelp.net "I-Dog Biggest Loser" Official Cheerleader/Mascot Start 09/15/08: 186.4 lbs Current 175.6 lbs

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• 05-08-2008 12:39 AM

  In reply to brookcove

  Dog_ma Joined on 06-25-2007 San Diego County, California Posts 1,357 Points 795

  Re: Spinoff from Elitist Attitude - Canine Breeding vs. Human Breeding Reply Contact Becca, that was a beautiful post. For whatever its worth, and I don't mean this as a contradiction to you, just an exploration - I don't think there is anything "just" about being animals, even ones that use tools. I think there is something beautiful in being an animal - the animals in my early life were often more trustworthy than the people. People can be awful. Tremendously awful. As people with complex brains, we have the ability to take despair and depression and turn it into concepts. Some non-human animals suffer mightily too. I don't know if our brains make it worse or better. I'm really glad that you were able to find meaning in the cards life dealt you.   "Are you a dog trainer?" "No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night."

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• 05-08-2008 4:12 AM

  In reply to brookcove

  Benedict Joined on 05-30-2006 England Posts 5,590 Points 770

  Re: Spinoff from Elitist Attitude - Canine Breeding vs. Human Breeding Reply Contact brookcove: FourIsCompany: (To tell you the truth, I don't even know what people are arguing about! LOL I don't see the problem)    Here's from the original post: But...my opinion is this:  To the best of our knowledge, dogs do not fall in love, or at least not the way people do.  For better or worse, we let that emotional attachment override the "scientific" ideals of breeding when it comes to ourselves, but those reputable people who breed dogs can make a distanced, unemotional assessment about which 2 dogs would be the best match, breeding wise. [emphasis added] I say "for better or worse" because I can see, from an objective point of view, that maybe we should consider health conditions more thoroughly than we do when having kids, but that is a HUGE can of worms to open.  History, and a human's capacity for evil, would suggest that it is too easy to go too far in deciding who should breed...or even live. We've touched, in this thread, then, the intangibles that lead humans to value each other, how those values expand to change our world via technology, how we use and abuse technology as we interact with all life on earth, and what that for better or worse actually is and where that kind of thinking might start (the "can of worms"). Directly addressing the statement in bold, which lies at the heart of the issue, I think, it's my contention that the intangibles that make us what we are, enable us to make informed choices about the animals in our care.  I beleive those same characteristics also release us to follow those intangibles (love, self-sacrifice, joy, friendship, respect, intellectual growth, trust, faith) in our interactions with each other - and this is an adaptive trait that ensures that the future of the human race will be one of continued intellectual, emotional, and spiritual growth.   My turn to address the statement in bold     The thing is Becca, I agree with you.  I think that emotional attachment is important, it's what makes us who we are.  Without it, we humans WOULD simply "breed" on the basis of genetics and who knows what we would lose, what amazing humans would not be born, if we did so?  Not to mention, to touch on the old nature vs. nurture debate, the characteristics that are born into, or emerge, in a child raised with love are just as, if not more, important than whatever our DNA dictates that we will be.  I have no desire to see conscious "genetic matchmaking" emerge has the human way of life because of those very "intangibles" you mention.  Again, this thread came about simply from my point in the other thread that I do not believe it elitist to want the best match for onself with regards to a dog, any more than I think it is to want the same from a human companion.  I intentionally didn't mention health in my original post there, it was others who brought it up and I wanted to respond to that - perhaps in starting *this* thread, I did not get my feelings across in the way I would have liked.   I have more to say...but I haven't had any coffee yet and want to make sure I say what I mean.  To be continued... Kate - Dog.community Administrator Jokers to the right.

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• 05-08-2008 7:08 AM

  In reply to Benedict

  corvus Joined on 08-02-2006 Australia (NSW) Posts 2,197 Points 80

  Re: Spinoff from Elitist Attitude - Canine Breeding vs. Human Breeding Reply Contact Being emotionally wed to the natural environment for pretty much my whole life, there was a long time there that I struggled with humanity and how people were responsible for systematically destroying or poisoning the things I loved most. I'm sure I'm not the only one that's been there. Eventually I came to realise that humans have some redeeming features. They are compassionate, loving, and empathetic. The pour these things into art and create things that communicate emotion to strangers. They appreciate beauty. I look for and encourage these things wherever I mix with people. It's what really sets us apart, and I'm determined to remember that every day. Otherwise I'd be back to my old people-hating ways every time I saw an animal mistreated or a forest destroyed or carelessness causing death. As such, I personally embrace my emotional nature and take the thinking out of it wherever I can. Thinking is for appreciating how interesting humans are in their own right, and that's what I get out of these discussions.  Melissa's family: Penny - corgi, Kit - wild hare, Bonnie - rabbit, Kivi Tarro - Finnish Lapphund "She's always talking about her hare."

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• 05-08-2008 8:27 AM

  In reply to brookcove

  FourIsCompany Joined on 07-30-2007 Posts 4,738 Points 1,135

  Re: Spinoff from Elitist Attitude - Canine Breeding vs. Human Breeding Reply Contact Brookcove, thanks for the explanation. I agree with what you've written 100%. AND, I still don't see the argument. (Am I being daft?) I don't think anyone is arguing that we should take an unemotional stance when "breeding" humans the same way we breed dogs - or disregard, in any way, those intangibles. No one is taking that side of the imagined argument, as far as I can tell. No one is advocating human health testing for breeding (are they?) So I ask again, what is upsetting people? What am I not getting?  LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself) Click Daily to Give Free Food and Care to Animals: http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

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• 05-08-2008 9:28 PM

  In reply to FourIsCompany

  calliecritturs Joined on 09-10-2007 Central Florida Posts 7,702 Points 2,075

  Re: Spinoff from Elitist Attitude - Canine Breeding vs. Human Breeding Reply Contact FourIsCompany: So I ask again, what is upsetting people? What am I not getting?  some folks got pretty ... well it ranged from arrogant to rude to really nice & helpful ... on pages 2-3 particulary.  "what"?  any time you try to boil down something we all try ... and often FAIL at as miserably as marriage and babies into a philosophical discussion that touches on dog breeding?  It's probably gonna raise a few hackles, and mis-understanding is going to abound -- mostly because a LOT of what we're discussing is a) either so philiosophical that most people's eyes glaze over by the 2d page or b) it's easily 'offensive' to many who view such things not only thru purely philosophical ways, but thru religious and ethnic views as well. bottom line, tho, 4iC is simply that some folks (admittedly like *me* who deliberately avoids 'breed' and will never adopt a dog simply because of it's 'breed' because ... it's who I am) have a tough time with the whole breeding concept ... and then when you mix it up with human 'breeding' you've ramped the emotional angst up .... ohhhh to about 50 notches.  (cos you've got all of us who can't HAVE kids, mixed with those who wished they hadn't, those who have been divorced and are bitter, divorced and happy about it, married and wished they weren't, married and thrilled, and the other 979,000 ways that could be perceived).  Bottom line ... there are some who LIKE to "discuss".  Some thrive on it.  It's like air to them ... and some of us ... don't.  "you can talk the talk but can you walk the walk??" Mostly tho -- I think what was 'upsetting' was simply that this is a tough subject to truly make yourself completely understood.  Because it's so fraught with emotional "parts".  Just between what Becca and I shared ... and then there are "a million other stories in the Naked City".  Make sense?  I truly wasn't being ratty -- I just honestly couldn't see the point.  "pure discussion" isn't typically my thing -- and you don't often SEE me involved in one of these.

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• 05-08-2008 11:04 PM

  In reply to calliecritturs

  FourIsCompany Joined on 07-30-2007 Posts 4,738 Points 1,135

  Re: Spinoff from Elitist Attitude - Canine Breeding vs. Human Breeding Reply Contact Thank you, callie. I guess it's easy for me to "divorce" myself from the emotional side of it because I have so much practice doing that in debate and discussion. I have been raped, and I can talk openly about rape. I have been molested and I can talk openly about it. I can't have kids and can talk openly about it. My parents have died and I can talk... you get the idea. I think I have a lot of practice talking. LOL I did think you were being ratty at all. I think you're wonderful.    LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself) Click Daily to Give Free Food and Care to Animals: http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

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• 05-08-2008 11:34 PM

  In reply to FourIsCompany

  calliecritturs Joined on 09-10-2007 Central Florida Posts 7,702 Points 2,075	Re: Spinoff from Elitist Attitude - Canine Breeding vs. Human Breeding Reply Contact soooo let's see ... now that's 999,997 stories ... That's just it -- we ALL come from our own 'frame of reference' -- who knew they'd make all those frames so differently!
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• 05-08-2008 11:47 PM

  In reply to calliecritturs

  brookcove Joined on 09-10-2007 Semora, North Carolina, USA Posts 4,686 Points 335

  Re: Spinoff from Elitist Attitude - Canine Breeding vs. Human Breeding Reply Contact   calliecritturs: soooo let's see ... now that's 999,997 stories ... That's just it -- we ALL come from our own 'frame of reference' -- who knew they'd make all those frames so differently! Now you're talking.  And all those frames contain . . .what?  And there's a different one for every one of us!  Who's to say which one is better or worse or more suitable to contribute to the next generation? Did I mention my brother who is autistic to the point of being nonverbal, but who is fluent in, they think, upwards of 100 languages?  They actually haven't been able to test him on the extent of his knowlege.  Kind of a Rainman thing - it's actually the same "syndrome."  Defect?  Or . . .what?  He's also got moderate cerebral palsy and is epileptic. More frames . . . for more stories . . .and those pesky intangibles . . . Can anybody answer my question of why I threw that popcorn differently, and what that has to do with the difference between human sexual pairing and the breeding of domestic animals?   I'd love to know whether anyone gave that any thought.  Maggie would be glad to repeat the experiment if anyone needs additional data.  Becca Shouse: Irena Farm, Semora, NC Cord, Ted, Gus, Zhi, Maggie, Lynn, Lu, Min and Tully Waiting: Bubo & Ben "We didn't have a phone, and we couldn't call you!" Helen, AIDS orphan. Don't let them die of ignorance - WorldHelp.net "I-Dog Biggest Loser" Official Cheerleader/Mascot Start 09/15/08: 186.4 lbs Current 175.6 lbs

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• 05-10-2008 4:27 PM

  In reply to brookcove

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 10,352 Points 840

  Re: Spinoff from Elitist Attitude - Canine Breeding vs. Human Breeding Reply Contact brookcove: I believe what makes a "good" or "productive" human goes far beyond physical attributes.  Cases to consider: John Milton Sir Isaac Newton (epilepsy) Benjamin Franklin (strong evidence of Asperger's, a form of autism) Beethoven Van Gogh Dickens (various disorders including epilepsy and asthma) Lincoln (mood disorder) Harriet Tubman (epilepsy) Anne Sullivan (Helen Keller's teacher, herself visually impaired) John Nash (mathematician with severe schizophrenia) Franklin Delano Roosevelt Einstein (Aspergers syndrome) JFK (asthma) Jesse Jackson (cleft palate) And of course, very famously, Stephen Hawking One might say that one could see that all of the above had value, and therefore cherrypicking of those with disabilities could preserve those who had obvious genius to "balance" their physical problems.  However, at the time Hawking was diagnosed with his degenerative disorder, he was not really distinguishing himself and was a pretty typical 21 year old.   It was the limitation of his increasing disability that created the focus that brought out his genius.     You are quite right, but no one euthanizes humans who are born with these disabilities.  One could also argue (just playing devil's advocate - this is not MY point of view) that some people with these issues utilize more than a fair share of services, or accomodations, at the expense of society.  Those are human issues, however, and we have little control over whether people breed or not (of course, people can make choices now as opposed to several generations ago when abstinence, nature, or "the rhythm method" governed who got preggers and who didn't).  We have some choice over how we approach the breeding of dogs, and IMO, it is not elitist at all to want to do so responsibly so that more dogs are free of genetic disorders, or are more temperamentally suited for life in a pet/working/show household, living among humans.  So many dogs are discarded, and sound breeding practices seem to prevent some of that, coupled with training and management. Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 19 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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• 05-11-2008 8:27 AM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  brookcove Joined on 09-10-2007 Semora, North Carolina, USA Posts 4,686 Points 335

  Re: Spinoff from Elitist Attitude - Canine Breeding vs. Human Breeding Reply Contact You are quite right, but no one euthanizes humans who are born with these disabilities. No, but what if things progress to the point where these disabilities can be easily identified via DNA marker, before birth?  How will we counsel parents facing a life with an epileptic child, a blind child, a child with the brain chemical imbalances that will eventually lead to bipolar disorder or schizophrenia, or one with Asperger's? I think it's wise to have our values thought out well in advance of technology, rather than playing catch up.   Becca Shouse: Irena Farm, Semora, NC Cord, Ted, Gus, Zhi, Maggie, Lynn, Lu, Min and Tully Waiting: Bubo & Ben "We didn't have a phone, and we couldn't call you!" Helen, AIDS orphan. Don't let them die of ignorance - WorldHelp.net "I-Dog Biggest Loser" Official Cheerleader/Mascot Start 09/15/08: 186.4 lbs Current 175.6 lbs

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