The Elitist Attitude.

• 05-06-2008 9:29 PM

  In reply to Marklf

  miranadobe Joined on 04-06-2006 Arizona Posts 4,209 Points 305

  Re: The Elitist Attitude. Reply Contact Here's the thing - the majority of even the most carefully planned responsible breedings is "just" a pet quality dog.  Imagine the bell-curve of expectations drops down significantly when said breedings are indiscriminate, uninformed, and ultimately hapless.  The TOP end of your results is the "pet quality" that you aimed for, and the BOTTOM end is deformity, aggression, behavioral problems, cancers, etc, etc. I do not believe that breeding is exclusive to only show-quality dogs.  But I do not believe it should be undertaken by any/everyone simply because they want another of what they think is "sweet, fun, cute", etc. For reference, my family entered into the breeding arena with a Cocker Spaniel 25+ years ago.  (It was a thorough mistake from top to bottom.)  My current Dobe is the "pet/competitive obed"-quality product of a frequent backyard breeder who relinquished both dam and sire to rescue.  My dog was born at that shelter two days later.  My family has owned mostly mutts/mixes throughout the years, and I've been involved in rescue for 20 years.  I currently live w/a pit who was used to breed more pits.  She was bred to an aggressive male - and now there are 10 more pits with the genes of that male, and our dopey female out there.  Because someone wanted a pet.... or a few $$.... or simply didn't take responsibility for their dogs.  Which, is ultimately the truth because that owner dumped her, pregnant, before he moved away. Gracie - 5yr old Doberman, Jada - 4?yr old APBT, Achilles - 4yr old ACD Fight for your opinions, but do not believe that they contain the whole truth, or the only truth. ~W. Hamilton

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• 05-06-2008 10:03 PM

  In reply to miranadobe

  brookcove Joined on 09-10-2007 Semora, North Carolina, USA Posts 4,369 Points 335

  Re: The Elitist Attitude. Reply Contact the majority of even the most carefully planned responsible breedings is "just" a pet quality dog.  Imagine the bell-curve of expectations drops down significantly when said breedings are indiscriminate, uninformed, and ultimately hapless.  The TOP end of your results is the "pet quality" that you aimed for, and the BOTTOM end is deformity, aggression, behavioral problems, cancers, etc, etc. Thank you.  This is a genetic fact which is not stated enough.  A friend who is a research geneticist likens it to a target.  If most of the people in your breed are aiming for a high standard in the center, you will have a small number of dogs that will achieve that standard (gold dogs), a large number of really nice dogs that meet the standard but in a sort of average way (orange dogs), and then a small number that fall below the standard (green dogs), but are nice dogs still - healthy, temperamentally sound, and easily identified with the breed they represent. Gold dogs have a large gene pool of orange dogs to cross out to, and keep the breed healthy and still capable of doing whatever function people need from that dog (family dogs, hunting, service, protection, even lap dogs).  The result of those breedings will be more gold dogs, some orange dogs, and a few green dogs.  Orange to orange matings can also produce gold dogs since the bloodlines are in there strongly, gold dogs can also be used to improve borderline dogs in the green circle, and while gold dogs would be rare from such breedings, they wouldn't be unthinkable. However, what happens when the majority of people in the breed aim for the orange - or even the green?  What happens is that the standards go down across the board.  The golds practically disappear, what used to be orange now becomes rare golds, and what used to become green now becomes orange.  So what you say? Now there emerges something else to take the place of the greens.  Something worse than the greens were before, a result of lowered standards - now there's a regular flow into the gene pool of unhealthy, substandard dogs that are unsuited for the purpose that that breed exists, in theory.  The same breeding principles apply as above - only now as matings occur back and forth across the lines of the "target", they introduce problems upward rather than bringing quality down to the green circle. Becca Shouse: Irena Farm, Semora, NC Cord, Ted, Gus, Zhi, Maggie, Lynn, Lu, Min and Tully Waiting: Bubo & Ben "We didn't have a phone, and we couldn't call you!" Helen, AIDS orphan. Don't let them die of ignorance - WorldHelp.net "I-Dog Biggest Loser" Official Cheerleader/Mascot Start 09/15/08: 186.4 lbs Current 183.0 lbs

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• 05-07-2008 6:52 AM

  In reply to dgriego

  ron2 Joined on 09-10-2007 far north central Texas Posts 9,827 Points 500

  Re: The Elitist Attitude. Reply Contact Then she is an ethical breeder, regardless of where the pups are whelped. And many breeders live on the property where the breeding takes place. And she does testing, breed standard, etc. Totally different than the average byb or family that just wanted some more nice looking puppies and end up giving them away or selling them at the Home Depot parking lot.   The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb

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• 05-07-2008 9:29 AM

  In reply to Chuffy

  AgileGSD Joined on 09-16-2007 Posts 452 Points 0

  Re: The Elitist Attitude. Reply Contact Chuffy: Massive contradiction here.  A dog that has a poor temperament is not a "well bred dog", and the show ring bed@mned.  I'd bet my house any reputable breeder - heck any dog lover with an ounce of sense! - would precisely say the same.     Saying a dog is well bred doesn't mean that the dog doesn't have problems or is a good example of the breeder just implies the sort of breeder/lines the dog came from. I had a well bred GSD with a screwy temperament and epilepsy but he was still well bred (health tested pedigree, well known lines, show breeder).

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• 05-07-2008 9:29 AM

  In reply to whtsthfrequency

  Xerxes Joined on 05-08-2006 Posts 5,622 Points 520

  Re: The Elitist Attitude. Reply Contact whtsthfrequency: I understand the necessity of keeping a Plott to look like a Plott - what I am worried about is that due to the inclusion in the AKC, which you must admit focuses a great deal on form over function, despite the standard being written by people who know their dogs - I can see the show world doing to them exactly what the it did to the border collie, ending up with the ABC and AKC at odds - attracting breeders who only care about coat color, length, etc, not working ability - creating the best LOOKING dog to win shows, while not focusing on the breeding dog's working ability, which is JUST as important as appearance in the defining of the breed. Right now, I agree, the people who shows Plotts are "showing their working dogs" - but how long do you think that is going to last?   Talk to the Plott people.  They're more proud of their "Cougar dogs," "Bear dogs," and "Hog dogs" than they are of their conformation championship.  And this is just the women I was talking to!   Because of the easy going temperment of the Plott, I can imagine it might become popular.  But I doubt it, due mainly to their need to work or hunt.  I also doubt it because of the small number of Plotts in existence at this time.   I think you will see a very small deviation in these dogs-very small.  Why?  Because I doubt the Plott enthusiasts will sell to "show only" homes.  I was just asking about the breed and I got a few questions thrown my way..."Why are you interested in these dogs?  You don't hunt-so you really don't need a Plott.  Oh they're not good in a condo."

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• 05-07-2008 9:37 AM

  In reply to AuroraLove

  AgileGSD Joined on 09-16-2007 Posts 452 Points 0

  Re: The Elitist Attitude. Reply Contact AuroraLove: Wow, I'll end this topic right now with proof of why an elitist attitude is the ethical and responsible way to go. So please forgive me, I am not trying to turn this into a pit bull debate but if you give me a moment of your time I'll explain. Once upon a time the APBT never weighed over 40lbs max and was NEVER human aggressive and had even temperments due to very careful and responsible breeding practices. They were in the top 7 family dogs and looked like this..... Then people decided to breed them for money, color and every other selfish reason under the son. No proper health tests were done and NO mind was paid to temperment. Now all you have to do is walk down the street to find a human aggressive pit bull. Now everyone hates them, they are 100lbs and bigger. Dont think it cant happen to your breed, Dave Wilson did THIS.....to my beloved breed in only 3 decades  Ummm just soemthing to think about here - those "once upon a time" pit bulls responsible breeders were dogfighters. Breeding for the sport they were intended for made sure they had to remain althletic and they had the sort of temperament desired for the "job". I am not supporting fighting of course, just stating the facts of the matter. There are still plenty APBTs that look like and act like the dogs of the old. I see nice APBTs at the UKC shows all the time, really quite a few in the shelters and have known a couple that were for sure "gamebred" (bought from someone who fights dogs) APBTs that were awesome dogs - one is a therapy dog that kids read too.

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• 05-07-2008 9:48 AM

  In reply to miranadobe

  AgileGSD Joined on 09-16-2007 Posts 452 Points 0

  Re: The Elitist Attitude. Reply Contact miranadobe: Here's the thing - the majority of even the most carefully planned responsible breedings is "just" a pet quality dog.  Imagine the bell-curve of expectations drops down significantly when said breedings are indiscriminate, uninformed, and ultimately hapless.  The TOP end of your results is the "pet quality" that you aimed for, and the BOTTOM end is deformity, aggression, behavioral problems, cancers, etc, etc. This is a big generalization, there are pet breeders out there who are just as educated as show breeders are producing nice dogs. There is a group of collie breeders in my area who are pet breeders - they don't enjoy showing their dogs but love the breed. The dogs are health tested, puppies are CERF'd prior to being sold and their pedigrees have some nice dogs in them. These dogs are not low in quality, deformed, aggressive or really any different from most show bred collie litters with the exception that most are not the style that is shown hese days (they are not as massive boned, not as extreme in the head or eye and don't tend to grow HUGE coats). I had one of these collies and he was a wonderful dog - very smart, drivey and had a good work ethic. When I looked at show breeders litters, I couldn't find collies that the same type of character mine had.  And your reasoning is flawed anyway, in that responsible breeders also will sometimes end up with a bottom end of deformity, temperament problems or health problems. It happens to anyone who breeds dogs and it doesn't mean the breeder is bad or ignorant or has poor quality dogs.

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• 05-07-2008 10:02 AM

  In reply to Liesje

  Marklf Joined on 05-05-2008 Posts 165 Points 0

  Re: The Elitist Attitude. Reply Contact Liesje: So if I want a "rare all black" GSD and find two roaming on the street, one is limping and one is aggressive towards people, it's OK to breed them because I just want a "black pet"?   How did you jump to that conclusion?  I have stated several times that if a person was breeding healthy, good tempered, intelligent, and friendly dogs I had no problem with it!  It is funny that you mentioned the "rare all black GSD" because in fact my last GSD was all black!  He came from what many here would call a BYB.  His parents were the family pets of the "breeder and were also both all black.  They were both health screened and their entire medical records were made available to me.  Neither parent had ever steeped into any ring (show, schutzhund, agility...) they were owned strictly as pets.  Both Parents did however come from "proven" lines meaning that both had several "titles" in their pedigree.  The reason we decided to get our GSD from them was not because of the "rare black" coat but rather because of the temperament, intelligence, structure and personality of the parents.  It seems that we made a good choice because we ended up with a beautiful, healthy dog that was by far the most intelligent dog I have ever known!  In fact another poster used the term "holy grail" of dogs, well IMHO that dog was it!!  Yet he was bred to be a "pet"!  The people that bred him had no intention of raising "show dogs" or "guard dogs" or "police dogs" they were only interested in producing great quality GSD PETS and they certainly succeeded! Liesje: I guess I am "elitist" in the fact that to me, a GSD is NOT just a "pet".  They were specifically designed to be a tough, agile, working breed.  If I wanted a good pet, I would have gotten a dog designed specifically for human companionship.  I have found that GSD happen to make outstanding pets for those that are looking for a dog with there particular traits.  Mark

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• 05-07-2008 10:11 AM

  In reply to AgileGSD

  Xerxes Joined on 05-08-2006 Posts 5,622 Points 520

  Re: The Elitist Attitude. Reply Contact AgileGSD: This is a big generalization, there are pet breeders out there who are just as educated as show breeders are producing nice dogs. There is a group of collie breeders in my area who are pet breeders - they don't enjoy showing their dogs but love the breed. The dogs are health tested, puppies are CERF'd prior to being sold and their pedigrees have some nice dogs in them. These dogs are not low in quality, deformed, aggressive or really any different from most show bred collie litters with the exception that most are not the style that is shown hese days (they are not as massive boned, not as extreme in the head or eye and don't tend to grow HUGE coats). I had one of these collies and he was a wonderful dog - very smart, drivey and had a good work ethic. When I looked at show breeders litters, I couldn't find collies that the same type of character mine had.   They might not appear that way, but do you know for certain?  I would venture to say that they are significantly different from standard.  Things like shoulder set, angulation, movement need a trained eye to see, or put that collie next to one with good conformation and see if you can tell the difference in movement.  It takes a lot of education to learn how to "see" the parts as well as the whole, even with a breed that doesn't have a thick layer of fur over it's body.

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• 05-07-2008 10:14 AM

  In reply to Marklf

  Liesje Joined on 03-02-2007 Grand Rapids, Michigan Posts 7,107 Points 850

  Re: The Elitist Attitude. Reply Contact Marklf: I have found that GSD happen to make outstanding pets for those that are looking for a dog with there particular traits.  Mark   I agree, emphasis added by me.  The problem is too many people want them as "pets", as in, they want a less-energetic, less-drivey dog.  They want a German Shepherd basically bred down, if that makes any sense.  Or they want a giant dog with an insane coat.  If people want a low-drive lap dog, get a toy dog bred for companionship.  If people want a huge fluffy dog, get a Leonberger, not a German Shepherd dog.  A German Shepherd is what it is.  I simply cannot agree or believe that some GSDs have the perfect temperament when their temperament has never been tested.  Just being well-mannered in the house and good around people and dogs is NOT indicative of correct temperament.  My Kenya is impeccably well bred and she is all of those things, but her temperament is still a serious fault.  If a large man were to run at her and hit her with a stick, she would either cower and run or turn into a reactive mess. The GSD is supposed to be confident and have a rock solid temperament.  Just living in a family situation as a pet is NOT a true test of a GSDs temperament, and thus I could never condone breeding a GSD that I could not prove had the correct temperament (and drive, and structure....).  Being a fine pet and having health screenings is simply not a good enough test for me, sorry.  That does not bring out the traits specific to a German Shepherd dog, as you have stated. vankelderdogs.dutchbingo.net U-CH Alta-Tollhaus-Krieger Lamb Chop RA CL1-F CL1-R TT HIC TDI CGC ("Kenya", GSD) VPC's Coca-Cola CGC ("Coke", All American) Alta-Tollhaus' Bono ("Nikon", GSD)

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• 05-07-2008 10:45 AM

  In reply to Xerxes

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,411 Points 360

  Re: The Elitist Attitude. Reply Contact  Thank you AgileGSD for the information.  I did not know that "reputable" Pet Quality Breeders exist.  My impression is these types of breeders are lumped into the category as BYB and that name has a negative tag. I guess what I don't understand is the breed clubs and the dog fanciers will make sure the dog's standards are presevered so why does it matter that Pet Quality Bred dog doesn't conform to all of the standards, especially if the line stops with the pet owner (with health issues always a consideration)?

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• 05-07-2008 11:03 AM

  In reply to DPU

  mudpuppy Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 5,494 Points 100

  Re: The Elitist Attitude. Reply Contact so why does it matter that Pet Quality Bred dog doesn't conform to all of the standards, especially if the line stops with the pet owner (with health issues always a consideration)? don't know. I have trouble believing the BYB and "pet quality BYB bred dogs" are much of a problem when it comes to doggy genetic health- not enough of each "line" is available. It's the puppy mills mass-producing dogs from handful of "founder" animals that pollute the gene pool. Get one dog with a bad temperament and bad hips, breed him to ten females, lots of pups with bad temperaments and bad hips now exist. And keep some of them to keep breeding the "line" and pretty soon there is a big problem with the breed. And people keep talking about "show breeders" as if they weren't a problem. Show breeders tend to pick the top-winning stud dog and breed to that dog a lot. If that dog happens to have an asymptomatic genetic problem, it can rapidly be transmitted across a breed and become a serious symptomatic problem.

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• 05-07-2008 11:21 AM

  In reply to DPU

  Liesje Joined on 03-02-2007 Grand Rapids, Michigan Posts 7,107 Points 850

  Re: The Elitist Attitude. Reply Contact DPU:  Thank you AgileGSD for the information.  I did not know that "reputable" Pet Quality Breeders exist.  My impression is these types of breeders are lumped into the category as BYB and that name has a negative tag.   I think about half of the dogs coming out of reputable GSD breeders are "pet quality" dogs.  As Becca (I think) was explaining earlier, a "pet quality" dog is not a bad thing and doesn't mean the dog came from someone breeding down to a lower standard.  No dog is perfect, and only a few are outstanding examples of their breed.  The rest ARE pet quality dogs.  For example, say a GSD breeder is breeding a litter and is trying to improve on pigment and drive.  Say two of the puppies have great pigment and great drive so they would do really well in an SV show (comformation AND temperament/work tests).  But say the rest might have great pigment, but are less drivey and more laid back puppies, or they lack pigment and are pretty laid back.  There's nothing wrong with those dogs, and no real reason to cull them unless there is some painful genetic disorder or severe temperament problem (which likely would never be evident at their age), so they go to "pet" homes who are prepared for a smart and very active German Shepherd dog, but not one that is so intense it really needs to be working to be happy. It's not the "pet" factor that give BYBs and millers a negative connotation, it's the reasons why they are breeding.    I guess what I don't understand is the breed clubs and the dog fanciers will make sure the dog's standards are presevered so why does it matter that Pet Quality Bred dog doesn't conform to all of the standards, especially if the line stops with the pet owner (with health issues always a consideration)? It doesn't matter, as we've said, most litters produce a few pet quality dogs, but the breeders aren't breeding solely to produce pets, they are breeding to improve the breed.  No one knows everything about genetics and nothing is 100% guaranteed.  A breeder might breed to improve ear set and tail set and end up with three pups that DO have better ear sets and tail sets than the parents, but 5 pups that are the same as the parents.  vankelderdogs.dutchbingo.net U-CH Alta-Tollhaus-Krieger Lamb Chop RA CL1-F CL1-R TT HIC TDI CGC ("Kenya", GSD) VPC's Coca-Cola CGC ("Coke", All American) Alta-Tollhaus' Bono ("Nikon", GSD)

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• 05-07-2008 11:25 AM

  In reply to mudpuppy

  Liesje Joined on 03-02-2007 Grand Rapids, Michigan Posts 7,107 Points 850

  Re: The Elitist Attitude. Reply Contact mudpuppy: And people keep talking about "show breeders" as if they weren't a problem. Show breeders tend to pick the top-winning stud dog and breed to that dog a lot. If that dog happens to have an asymptomatic genetic problem, it can rapidly be transmitted across a breed and become a serious symptomatic problem.   Very true as well.  It upsets me to see certain studs used over and over.  It's like a catch 22 b/c the stud is marketed as having produced so many champions...well of course!  He is being studded out to dozens of bitches so it figures that there should be a good handful of champions in the bunch.   For me, it all boils down to intent.  I believe good, responsible breeding places improving the dog as the number one priority.  I don't think you can do that when breeding unproven pets, as well-mannered and pretty as they might seem.  I also don't think you can do that when repeatedly studding the same few dogs over and over and over.... A good breeder should not only be able to produce the health test, but give VERY specific reasoning behind why they are pairing these specific two dogs to each other.  I should be able to ask, "Why did you not use Fero as a stud?" or "How do you expect this litter to improve on this bitch?" and get an informed answer.  vankelderdogs.dutchbingo.net U-CH Alta-Tollhaus-Krieger Lamb Chop RA CL1-F CL1-R TT HIC TDI CGC ("Kenya", GSD) VPC's Coca-Cola CGC ("Coke", All American) Alta-Tollhaus' Bono ("Nikon", GSD)

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• 05-07-2008 1:23 PM

  In reply to Xerxes

  Pwca Joined on 09-10-2006 Dallas, Texas Posts 1,327 Points 310

  Re: The Elitist Attitude. Reply Contact Xerxes: AgileGSD: This is a big generalization, there are pet breeders out there who are just as educated as show breeders are producing nice dogs. There is a group of collie breeders in my area who are pet breeders - they don't enjoy showing their dogs but love the breed. The dogs are health tested, puppies are CERF'd prior to being sold and their pedigrees have some nice dogs in them. These dogs are not low in quality, deformed, aggressive or really any different from most show bred collie litters with the exception that most are not the style that is shown hese days (they are not as massive boned, not as extreme in the head or eye and don't tend to grow HUGE coats). I had one of these collies and he was a wonderful dog - very smart, drivey and had a good work ethic. When I looked at show breeders litters, I couldn't find collies that the same type of character mine had.   They might not appear that way, but do you know for certain?  I would venture to say that they are significantly different from standard.  Things like shoulder set, angulation, movement need a trained eye to see, or put that collie next to one with good conformation and see if you can tell the difference in movement.  It takes a lot of education to learn how to "see" the parts as well as the whole, even with a breed that doesn't have a thick layer of fur over it's body.     Wings came from a breeder like that. Didn't breed CEA carriers, all dogs were hip and eyechecked- and they could work, too! She had some pups in small farm homes that were using them to work small numbers of livestock, and a couple of Wings' littermates went to agility people. The problem was, she didn't have the depth of pedigree knowlege to spot the problems in the lines she was working with. Just being CEA free and good hips isn't enough in collies. You also need to REALLY know what the heck is out there as far as the things that you can't test for- like epilepsy.

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