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Halti headcollar

Last post 04-30-2008 9:39 AM by AgileGSD. 22 replies.
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  • 04-26-2008 12:08 PM In reply to oranges81

    Re: Halti headcollar

    oranges81:

    The dog doesn't mind it too much but they get used to it. Maze dances when she sees hers but then turns her head and pouts when I put it on..  

     Which is why I feel headcollars are one of the harshest no-pull tools available. Maze dances when she sees it because she knows it means she is going for a walk (or going out some where). It has nothing to do with her feelings of the headcollar, just what the headcollar signifies. The pouting when you put it on means she does mind and finds it very aversive. What I find most interesting is that headcollars are the only tool I have used that brings on this sort of depressed behavior in the majority of dogs it is used on, even after repeated use. I have never seen such reactions across the board from dogs with slip/choke collars, prong collars, electric bark collars or harnesses. I gave GLs a GOOD try, with a couple dogs of my own along with LOTS of class dogs and was really dedicated to using them for quite some time. In the end though, I had to listen to what the dogs were saying. No matter what some positive training gurus think, no matter what the companies claim dogs clearly tell us they find headcollars extremely aversive. And don't try to fool yourself - headcollars work becasue they cause discomfort when the dog pulls against them :)

     There are still situations where I would use them, for example in some cases when working with aggression issues, that subdued effect of headcollars comes in handy. On the whole though I have much better success with martingales or slip collars/leads for softer dogs and prong collars for stronger, more dedicated pullers. Lead position and length makes a big difference too - higher on the neck and a shorter leash will give more control with much less force and with that postion some owners find they can use just a buckle collar and have much better control.

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  • 04-26-2008 6:22 PM In reply to AgileGSD

    Re: Halti headcollar

    AgileGSD:
    And don't try to fool yourself - headcollars work becasue they cause discomfort when the dog pulls against them :)

    Who's fooling who though?

    A head halter works because it moves the dog's head in a different direction, not because it causes pain. Where the head goes, the body will follow. And if the head is turned slightly, it throws the physics of the dog's momentum off balance and it can't pull sideways. Unless you jerk the head halter (which is not how it is supposed to be used), there would be no discomfort. Annoyance that the dog can't pull, sure, but discomfort there should never be if you use it right. And I'm not saying that because I am a promoter of head halters, quite contrary I try to steer away from them as much as possible, but do and have used them, however the head halter is not a tool that works on the premise of pain when used properly, whereas that is the inherent intent of a prong or slip collar.

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  • 04-26-2008 6:54 PM In reply to Kim_MacMillan

    Re: Halti headcollar

    Kim_MacMillan:
    A head halter works because it moves the dog's head in a different direction, not because it causes pain. Where the head goes, the body will follow. And if the head is turned slightly, it throws the physics of the dog's momentum off balance and it can't pull sideways. Unless you jerk the head halter (which is not how it is supposed to be used), there would be no discomfort. Annoyance that the dog can't pull, sure, but discomfort there should never be if you use it right. And I'm not saying that because I am a promoter of head halters, quite contrary I try to steer away from them as much as possible, but do and have used them, however the head halter is not a tool that works on the premise of pain when used properly, whereas that is the inherent intent of a prong or slip collar.

     If head collars made it physically impossible to pull, which seems to be how you believe it works than no dog would be able to pull against them. We all know that some dogs can and do still pull with headcollars (just as some can and do still pull with slips, anti-pull harnesses and prong) because for some dogs the discomfort is not great enough to stop the behavior. I am not saying they cause"pain" but certainly they cause discomfort as the collar puts pressure on the nose when the dog attempts to pull. Dogs seem to find headcollars pretty uncomfortable, based on the common reactions of struggling against the collar, fighting to take the collar off and change in personality while wearing the collar such as becoming noticeably "depressed" or as one poster here said "pouting". If that reaction was merely the dog being "annoyed" because he isn't getting his way, the reaction would be the same across the board regardless as to the tool being used if it was stopping the dog from pulling.

     The owner of the place I used to work always used the "they're just annoyed" or "they're just mad" agruement for headcollars as well. But when I stopped using them in my classes and started instead using what I always had prior to teaching there (martingales, slips or prongs depending on the dog) I had much more success than the other instructors. The dogs in my classes learned better leash manners, the training tools no longer involved a human vs. dog battle and no one had to deal with the behavioral side effects of headcollars. And of course I no longer work there now ;)

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  • 04-27-2008 5:12 AM In reply to AgileGSD

    Re: Halti headcollar

    it's not physically impossible to pull with them on.. A dog can still pull if it's determined enough. Maze always turns her head and pouts even her collar goes on for the day so it's not just a head halti thing. if I had the overall strength to properly train Maze not to pull I would but as it is I don't have the strength in my wrists and she has cracked them a couple times so the Halti to me is a savior.. Would I use it on my next dog.. Probably not but then I also won't be making the same mistakes I made with Maze..

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  • 04-29-2008 6:49 PM In reply to AgileGSD

    Re: Halti headcollar

    AgileGSD:
     If head collars made it physically impossible to pull, which seems to be how you believe it works than no dog would be able to pull against them.

    I didn't say it makes it impossible, I said it gives you the ability to control the head, and if you can properly control the head, you can properly control the pulling. You don't just slap it on and BINGO, the dog stops pulling. It takes effort and concentration on behalf of the human. If the human doesn't use it right, and just uses it as a regular collar, of course the dog will learn to pull into it. The human has to actually control the dogs head in order to have *control* of the situation.

    The same way it can learn to pull into any tool. The dog can learn to pull in choke chains, prongs, harnesses, martingales, and flat collars, if you just stick it on and do nothing with it. How many dogs have I seen pulling like a freight train on chokes and prongs, I cannot even begin to count. Head halters don't totally prevent pulling, unless the human uses it as it is meant to be used, and its proper use should not involved physical discomfort.

    AgileGSD:
    Dogs seem to find headcollars pretty uncomfortable, based on the common reactions of struggling against the collar, fighting to take the collar off and change in personality while wearing the collar such as becoming noticeably "depressed" or as one poster here said "pouting". 

    Some dogs do, certainly. But some dogs don't, as well. And for those dogs it causes a complete depression in, I wouldn't use one either! For those dogs that do just find it annoying at first (the same way dogs find wearing clothes, or a vest, or a seatbelt, or even a puppy first learning to wear a collar), and once used to the idea totally ignore it or come to really love it. Some always find it a bit irritating, sure. But there's not a generalization that can be be made to say that *dogs feel this way about head halters*. Because then there are some dogs that take to it like a fish to water on the first try, and absolutely dont' care at all.

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  • 04-29-2008 10:27 PM In reply to Kim_MacMillan

    Re: Halti headcollar

    Kim_MacMillan:
    Because then there are some dogs that take to it like a fish to water on the first try, and absolutely dont' care at all.

     The dogs I have seen who don't seem to mind it were dogs that I didn't think really needed them either. IME the majority of dogs even if they have mostly given up strongly fighting against it still rub their heads on your legs or swat their faces here and there.

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  • 04-30-2008 7:01 AM In reply to AgileGSD

    Re: Halti headcollar

    AgileGSD:

    Kim_MacMillan:
    Because then there are some dogs that take to it like a fish to water on the first try, and absolutely dont' care at all.

     The dogs I have seen who don't seem to mind it were dogs that I didn't think really needed them either. IME the majority of dogs even if they have mostly given up strongly fighting against it still rub their heads on your legs or swat their faces here and there.

     

     

    Don't small puppies do the very same thing when you first put a collar on them? When you put a leash on them?



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  • 04-30-2008 9:39 AM In reply to tessa_s212

    Re: Halti headcollar

    tessa_s212:
    Don't small puppies do the very same thing when you first put a collar on them? When you put a leash on them?

     IME no - young puppies do often fight against the collar at first but they don't have prolonged episodes of trying to rub the collar off, pawing at it or resisting. They generally accept it fairly quickly and don't bother with it after the first few days. I have never seen a puppy seem bothered by the collar for months or years after it was introduced but I have seen that in many dogs wearing GLs.

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