Constructional Aggression Treatment (4iC)

• 04-27-2008 4:44 PM

  In reply to FourIsCompany

  chelsea_b Joined on 09-10-2007 Costa Mesa, CA Posts 2,730 Points 280

  Re: Constructional Aggression Treatment (4iC) Reply Contact I was just reading about CAT in Whole Dog Journal! I don't have the help (dogs or people) to try this with Cherokee really, but I'm wondering about trying it JUST for her aggression towards Jaz.. The only problem is Jaz is really scared of Cherokee, so I'm afraid letting her work out her aggression will damage him even more. Any thoughts? Can CAT somehow be used for fearful, but not aggressive dogs? Chelsea &

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• 04-27-2008 4:50 PM

  In reply to chelsea_b

  Chuffy Joined on 12-17-2006 UK Posts 5,439 Points 10

  Re: Constructional Aggression Treatment (4iC) Reply Contact My understanding is that the other dog need to be of a rock solid temperament.  Cherokee would need to be "worked" with a bomb proof dog, one who is not fazed by her actions.  So Jaz would be out.  I have a feeling it wouldn't be right for a fearful dog, so you couldn't use the technique for Jaz. "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." (Pratchett, Jingo) "I used to look at [my dog] Smokey and think, 'If you were a little smarter you could tell me what you were thinking,' and he'd look at me like he was saying, 'If you were a little smarter, I wouldn't have to.'" - Fred Jungclaus

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• 04-27-2008 4:56 PM

  In reply to Chuffy

  chelsea_b Joined on 09-10-2007 Costa Mesa, CA Posts 2,730 Points 280	Re: Constructional Aggression Treatment (4iC) Reply Contact Chuffy: Cherokee would need to be "worked" with a bomb proof dog, one who is not fazed by her actions. I don't know ANY dogs that fit that description. I just want her to be nice to Jaz. I'm so sick of rotating dogs. Chelsea &
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• 04-27-2008 5:04 PM

  In reply to chelsea_b

  FourIsCompany Joined on 07-30-2007 Posts 4,738 Points 1,135

  Re: Constructional Aggression Treatment (4iC) Reply Contact 100% agreement with Chuffy. chelsea, probably the only option you have is getting a behavioral trainer who has a bomb proof dog. And the reason we're not using it for our dogs is because they are fearful, not aggressive. Have you read The Cautious Canine? That's basically what we're doing with both our dogs. That would probably work for Jaz. The very first thing is to get them to "look" or "focus" on you at your command. That just takes 5 minutes a day. LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself) Click Daily to Give Free Food and Care to Animals: http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

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• 04-27-2008 5:10 PM

  In reply to FourIsCompany

  chelsea_b Joined on 09-10-2007 Costa Mesa, CA Posts 2,730 Points 280

  Re: Constructional Aggression Treatment (4iC) Reply Contact FourIsCompany: Have you read The Cautious Canine? That's basically what we're doing with both our dogs. That would probably work for Jaz. The very first thing is to get them to "look" or "focus" on you at your command. That just takes 5 minutes a day. Yeah, I have the Cautious Canine. Thing is Jaz isn't mine, and while I love him to death, I have a problem "connecting" with him to do any real training or desensitizing. He doesn't listen to me, and I don't have the patience to earn his respect. If only my sister/roomate would get off her butt and do it herself...  Chelsea &

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• 04-27-2008 6:50 PM

  In reply to FourIsCompany

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,392 Points 360

  Re: Constructional Aggression Treatment (4iC) Reply Contact FourIsCompany: Well, when we got there and the instructor observed B'asia's interactions and body language with the other dogs, she was certain that B'asia was NOT at all aggressive and decided to go with a more conventional Patricia McConnell (Cautious Canine) style of desensitization, so we didn't use the CAT technique at all. I am not understanding "NOT at all aggessive".  From your previous description the dog was picking a fight with other dogs. From the CAT video:  Agression is induced by fear, or pain, predatory, defensive, territorial, dominant, maternal, etc.  Stimulus-Response Forumul:  Trigger ----> Attack. In Dr. JesusRsolales-Ruiz lecture, he draws a distinction between Desensitizing and CAT.  In describing Classical Conditioning Methods, his slides goes something like this: Aggression Solutions Classical (Respondent) Conditioning Methods: Habituation  - Refers to an organization ceasing to respond (or showing a reduction in magniture of the response) to a repeated stimulus.  Sensitization is the opposite of habituation: Responses become more and more intense as the stimulus continues or is repeated Adaption Sensory receptors become less reactive after continued exposure to a certain stimulus              e.g eyes become adapted to dark or light             same is true of touch, smell, taste, or any other senses Desenstization - The gradual descrease in strength of emotional responses to emotion-producing (frightening, or aversive) stimuli Passive Desensitization - Can occur simply by the contual exposure to the simuli, often while other things are going on.  If the level of stimulation ikss too high or too frightening, the animal may become more sensitive Active (or systematic) desensitization - The subject is as relaxed or peaceful as possible.  Trainer starts with very low values of frightening or distracting stimulus.  Trainer progressively increase the intensity of the stimulus un the animal is no longer frightened or distracted by it. Dr. Jesus says desensitization takes forever, reinforces the emotional reaction and the dog only get to a point of tolerance.  He states this is not training or learning, but management.  The Treatment does the opposite of Desensitization and uses OC.

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• 04-27-2008 7:30 PM

  In reply to DPU

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 10,133 Points 735

  Re: Constructional Aggression Treatment (4iC) Reply Contact  While you are all discussing constructional aggression treatment, it's interesting to simultaneously consider the other part of Dr. Rosale-Ruiz's work concerning the poisoned cue.  The research scenario: dogs were taught a behavior, once using positive reinforcement only and once using a leash correction when the dog made an incorrect choice.  The behaviors were the same, but the experimenters used a different verbal cues for each training method. When the dog was given the cue that had been taught using only positive reinforcement (with no punishment, however mild) the dog happily and quickly performed the requested behavior.  When asked to do the same behavior, but using the cue that was taught by leash corrections combined with positive reinforcment, the dog did the behavior, but showed signs of stress.  Also, the dog  showed some preliminary reluctance to do the behavior.  The cue that was taught using both methods is what Rosale-Ruiz calls a "poisoned" cue.  Once you see the video, you should be able to identify it in your own dogs.  To train successfully, you absolutely should learn to read stress signals.  Some are subtle and easily missed - others quite obvious.  Of course, not all cues will be poisoned if you use correction, but when you use it on shy, reactive, anxious, confused, or already-stressed dogs (such as kenneled dogs or dogs in shelters), then you may end up doing more harm by using both methods together, slowing the dog's learning, and causing additional stress. Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 19 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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• 04-27-2008 7:35 PM

  In reply to DPU

  FourIsCompany Joined on 07-30-2007 Posts 4,738 Points 1,135

  Re: Constructional Aggression Treatment (4iC) Reply Contact DPU: I am not understanding "NOT at all aggessive".   Sounds like you have a pretty good understanding of it to me. That post was from 3 days ago. You've posted since then. If you want to argue with someone, you're going to have to find someone else. This thread is about CAT, not B'asia. LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself) Click Daily to Give Free Food and Care to Animals: http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

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• 04-27-2008 8:12 PM

  In reply to FourIsCompany

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,392 Points 360

  Re: Constructional Aggression Treatment (4iC) Reply Contact FourIsCompany: That post was from 3 days ago. You've posted since then. If you want to argue with someone, you're going to have to find someone else. This thread is about CAT, not B'asia. Yes, but your description of your two dogs interacting in the dog park and then how they behaved in the training class that took place in that same park was confusing and in fact contradicting at times.  You seem to be more assertive online than when face to face to people.  Otherwise why would you have not interviewed the 2 behaviorist/trainer as to what they were going to do advance.  I am not understanding why they would not have initiated an interview.  You seem to take for granted their words just because they call themselves behaviorist or trainers and what appears to be namedropping CAT.  You approach the problem as either fear aggression and lack of social skills.  You select to do the Pushing Exercise and sing its praise for working and then at the same time explore using CAT and  go further by seeking help from professionals..  You say the behaviorist/trainer says it is not aggression but they don't say what it is or at least you did not say what they said. I think your whole experience of grasping at solutions is setting a poor example to others.  The best advise I can give you is take to time to observe what is actually happening with the dogs and then also take the time to plan a strategy and then stick to it. There was a lot effort to explain CAT to you and when it would be appropiate to use.  I would have still would have continued to question the 2 behaviorist/trainers by asserting your own observations and not theirs.  If they are good behaviorist/trainer they would be able to reconcile the difference.

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• 04-27-2008 8:44 PM

  In reply to DPU

  FourIsCompany Joined on 07-30-2007 Posts 4,738 Points 1,135

  Re: Constructional Aggression Treatment (4iC) Reply Contact Dude, you're way out of line. I did talk to the trainer about what she was going to do up front. But that was before she had seen the dog. She suggested using CAT so I explored it here. Once she met the dog and asked me a bunch of questions, she changed her approach to better fit what she viewed as the problem. DPU: You select to do the Pushing Exercise and sing its praise for working   It did work to make B'asia more confident. That's why I did it and it worked. I'm not sure of your problem with me doing it.   DPU: and then at the same time explore using CAT   Is there something wrong with exploring  behavioral techniques and methods? I don't get it. DPU: go further by seeking help from professionals   I sought help from professionals and they MENTIONED CAT and I explored it here. It was a possible treatment that was never used. I still find it interesting, though. DPU: You say the behaviorist/trainer says it is not aggression but they don't say what it is or at least you did not say what they said.   They did say what it is and I DID say what it is. Fear. DPU: I think your whole experience of grasping at solutions is setting a poor example to others.   We're each entitled to our opinions. But I'm not grasping at anything. I used 2 techniques in dealing with 2 different issues in my dogs. Is that OK with you? DPU: The best advise I can give you You are one of the LAST people I would take advice from. Thanks anyway.   DPU: There was a lot effort to explain CAT to you and when it would be appropiate to use. I wasn't holding a gun to anyone's head. No one is under any obligation to explain things OR to take advice from others here.   DPU: I would have still would have continued to question the 2 behaviorist/trainers by asserting your own observations and not theirs. I have never in my life worked with a dog who showed aggressive displays, whether from fear, or whatever. I am the LAST person to tell the trainer what to do. She DID ask me a lot of questions about B'asia's behavior. She observed B'asia. Only then, did she decide NOT to use CAT. There were no differences of opinion, because I didn't have an opinion.   LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself) Click Daily to Give Free Food and Care to Animals: http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

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• 04-27-2008 8:52 PM

  In reply to FourIsCompany

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,392 Points 360	Re: Constructional Aggression Treatment (4iC) Reply Contact FourIsCompany: DPU: The best advise I can give you You are one of the LAST people I would take advice from. Thanks anyway. Oh, so I am still on the list.
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• 04-27-2008 9:40 PM

  In reply to FourIsCompany

  luvmyswissy Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 1,536 Points 25

  Re: Constructional Aggression Treatment (4iC) Reply Contact FourIsCompany: Dude, you're way out of line. I did talk to the trainer about what she was going to do up front. But that was before she had seen the dog. She suggested using CAT so I explored it here. Once she met the dog and asked me a bunch of questions, she changed her approach to better fit what she viewed as the problem. WOW!!!   Let me just say that 4IC did everything right!!!   1.  First she recognized there was a problem 2.  She sought out a professional 3.  She researched and discussed (with others here) a possible treatment that the trainer might use before blindly supporting a training method she knew nothing about. 4.  and last, she decided to trust her trainer with her evaluation of the dog and problem. What is wrong with any of this??  This is exactly what EVERYONE should do!!   And as for taking advise I choose to do things that makes sense to me and I learn alot on this forum and others.  I get to hear others opinions, pointed to research I can read and I have people on this forum who's opinions I highly respect even if I am not always in 100% agreement.  Then there are those members who never make sense to me ever and usually just like to keep the pot stirred.  I work with people like that too and know how to LSTM.  http://www.tickerfactory.com/weight-loss/w9SNymY/

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• 04-27-2008 9:56 PM

  In reply to luvmyswissy

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,392 Points 360

  Re: Constructional Aggression Treatment (4iC) Reply Contact luvmyswissy: 4.  and last, she decided to trust her trainer with her evaluation of the dog and problem. Once again, this poster just pops in without reading all the post between about 4 threads and then gives blind support to a "friend" and then bashes the others.  Some are just predictable with their track records.  If you did keep up on the posting you would know the 4ic did not trust her trainer and followed the advise of a few people here.  Although I agreed with the advise of the members here, the reason stated for doing it was sooooo irrelevant.

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• 04-27-2008 10:07 PM

  In reply to DPU

  luvmyswissy Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 1,536 Points 25	Re: Constructional Aggression Treatment (4iC) Reply Contact Just because I don't participate dosen't mean I don't follow a post.  http://www.tickerfactory.com/weight-loss/w9SNymY/
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• 04-27-2008 10:08 PM

  In reply to DPU

  FourIsCompany Joined on 07-30-2007 Posts 4,738 Points 1,135

  Re: Constructional Aggression Treatment (4iC) Reply Contact DPU: If you did keep up on the posting you would know the 4ic did not trust her trainer and followed the advise of a few people here.  Although I agreed with the advise of the members here, the reason stated for doing it was sooooo irrelevant.   Perhaps you'd better read again, DPU. It is you who are mistaken. Maybe that's why your pants are in a knot. What swissy said was exactly right. I DID trust the trainer. YOU need to keep up with the posting. I don't know what advice from people here I supposedly took. or why the reasoning was irrelevant. Maybe you should have a cup of coffee and read the thread again.   LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself) Click Daily to Give Free Food and Care to Animals: http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

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