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Click - release or not?

Last post 05-17-2008 1:25 AM by Liesje. 8 replies.
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  • 04-01-2008 2:09 AM

    • rolenta
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    Click - release or not?

    In clicker training, is the click supposed to be a release or not? Is it personal choice? What are the advantages and disadvantages of either method? I keep trying to research and find out whether or not it is, and some people say one way and some people say another - just curious to hear your guys' input.
    Heidi and crew: Tojo (shiba inu), Rakka (shikoku), Skella, (icelandic sheepdog), Hester and Ridley (cats)
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  • 04-01-2008 7:05 AM In reply to rolenta

    Re: Click - release or not?

     It's a mix of both imo. When you want to increase the duration of say - a hold. You hold off on the click for a few seconds. The click to me says that the treat is coming and you did the right behavior. However, the click also marks the action that is correct - say a touch, for example. You aren't releasing a touch, so you click the action as the dog does it.

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  • 04-01-2008 8:20 AM In reply to Jewlieee

    • Liesje
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    Re: Click - release or not?

    My click/mark is NOT a release and I verbally correct the dog for thinking it is.  I've using marking to build Kenya's formal heel, so marking as a release defeats the purpose of building that behavior.  I want to mark her intermittently so she knows what is right, but if I mark and then she takes her eyes off me or starts stepping ahead, she gets and "eh eh, get back" ("get back" to her means move back into heel position).  I've also used marking to do a "get on your mat" which means Kenya finds her mat, lays down, and stays there until release.  I will intermittently approach the mat, mark, and give a reward, but she is to remain down on the mat until I stand along side her and say "OK!" (her release word).  For us, commands like "drop!" (moving down or down on recall), "sit", and "down" have built-in stays.  I expect the dog to remain in that position until release, but I also want to be able to mark the behavior without releasing it.  However, Kenya knows her release word and we spent just as much time making sure she understood that as we did with her commands.  I've done many exercises with her reinforcing her release word, and I like just as much attitude with the release word as I expect when I say "heel" and she prances or when I say "drop" and she SLAMS her front paws down and forward.

    vankelderdogs.dutchbingo.net
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  • 04-01-2008 8:30 AM In reply to rolenta

    Re: Click - release or not?

    It's what you make it, really.  So it can be either.  Like Liesje described or like Jewliee described.  For me it has become a release but I wish it was not as it would help with my contacts and weave work.  If I could click the correct entrance, but still have them finish up, that would be ideal.  As it is now, if the poles are not slanted/open and I click the entrance, they pop out for their reward.  Confused 

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  • 04-03-2008 11:49 AM In reply to Liesje

    • JRTzoey
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    Re: Click - release or not?

    Liesje:

     I expect the dog to remain in that position until release, but I also want to be able to mark the behavior without releasing it. 

     

    i like to have a seperate word for release, because Zoey likes a lot of reinforcement. when i taught her stay, i came across that same question, and i though to myself "well, if the click means ok you're done, then her stays will only be as long as i can hold her without clicking"... and i want her to be able to do a stay, and enjoy it! if she knows that the longer she stays there, that occasionally she'll get a little treat for being good.

    also, i thought down the road for sequencing in agility. obvisously she'll be starting in a stay, but i'll want her to be released, then go to jump, A-frame, whatever. not just run to me for her treat!

    to me, the click means "yes! that's what i wanted you to do!" but to get the next treat she might have to keep doing it, until she's released.

     

    good luck!!!! :) 



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  • 04-03-2008 1:38 PM In reply to JRTzoey

    • rolenta
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    Re: Click - release or not?

    Thanks for the responses! I have a seperate release word also, so I think I will keep the click and the release seperate.
    Heidi and crew: Tojo (shiba inu), Rakka (shikoku), Skella, (icelandic sheepdog), Hester and Ridley (cats)
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  • 05-16-2008 10:02 PM In reply to rolenta

    • brookcove
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    Re: Click - release or not?

     The bridge (click) ends the behavior most of the time, because it is a precise marker of zero mental duration.  Thus, from the dog's perspective, when the marker is heard, his or her job is done.  I wouldn't correct a dog for "releasing" on that point.  If training a release as part of the behavior, I'd chain the release word onto the end - and use backchaining to make sure the dog understands that the release is a vital part of the behavior.

    This is really interesting because it's the big giant reason we can't use conventional clicker training methods with livestock work.  Working stock is about working a flow of pressure - it would be like trying to clicker train a dog to swim - you'd cause more stress trying to break the behavior down in a way that is teachable via shaping, plus what it takes for every dog to stay afloat, is rather different.  It's safer to allow the dog to work it out holistically - the way that's right for him and for the situation of the moment.

    When marking a discrete behavior in "dry" training (ie, not involving another living creature), there's little chance the dog is thinking of anything but what he or she is doing with his body.  But 90% of stock work is mental, and if we mark something that's going on in the dog's head, that's totally inappropriate - well, you who do a lot of clicker training know how hard it is to unteach something that is mistakenly  shaped!  Big Smile 

    And then if you mark something you asked for, but the dog's mind has raced on to anticipate what needs to be done next, he'll think, "Done" and there will be a mental stopping short.  Often I see this when I am working a dog and I just can't help it, I'll praise them for something well done.  Inevitably, the dog's mind shuts off for a moment, and the problems that follow aren't worth the moment of praise I was able to get in.  I'm learning to substitute instead, tone of voice changes as reinforcement, and longer, "talky" verbal praise for moments of wonderfulness.

    However, both approaches are all about looking for the dog to give us the answers, so there's a continuity between what I do in working training, and off stock, though there are diametrically opposite differences.

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  • 05-16-2008 10:17 PM In reply to rolenta

    • jenns
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    Re: Click - release or not?

    In the Peggy Tillman book that I have "Clicking with Your Dog" it does state that the click is a release.

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  • 05-17-2008 1:25 AM In reply to jenns

    • Liesje
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    Re: Click - release or not?

    Kenya and I have been working on weaves, which is a perfect example of why I don't want my click to release.  I want to be able to click for the right entry, or click when she reaches top speed going through, etc.  I don't want her to pop out of the poles and come running for a treat when I click.  Same for working contacts.  I'll be clicking for her pause with 2on/2off, but when I click I don't want her coming off the contact.  The point of training the contact is that she remains in that position until I release her.  For us, a click means "yes, good dog you did it right!" and that meaning is created by the treat (charging the clicker each time).  The click doesn't exactly mean "ok now you get a treat!" 

    If we didn't do agility and didn't have to train such looooong heeling patterns (lookup the BH heeling pattern), then I probably would not care if a click was also a release/end behavior. 

    vankelderdogs.dutchbingo.net
    U-CH Alta-Tollhaus-Krieger Lamb Chop RA CL1-F CL1-R TT HIC TDI CGC ("Kenya", GSD)
    VPC's Coca-Cola CGC ("Coke", All American)
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