Incorporating Cesar CORRECTLY

• 03-25-2008 1:25 PM

  In reply to Pomeranian <3

  Gizmo83036 Joined on 02-07-2007 Southwest US Posts 134 Points 0	Re: Incorporating Cesar CORRECTLY Reply Contact Pomeranian <3: The training was easy and only took one week plus a test & more observation hours   After a weeks training you're doing puppy, basic, intermediate and CGC?!? Again, nothing against you but there is no way to be qualified for all that in a week. Petco is irresponsible in letting inexperienced trainers handle problem dogs.
  	Post Points: 0

• 03-25-2008 1:29 PM

  In reply to Liesje

  Pomeranian <3 Joined on 01-03-2008 MASSACHUSETTS Posts 1,065 Points 545

  Re: Incorporating Cesar CORRECTLY Reply Contact Liesje: I think MOST of the time, it's not that they have a bad behavioral problem, but they are pushed to hard too quickly.  Petco can be distracting even for my performance dog who has passed through every level of obedience the club offers and competes in obedience.  I can't imagine a puppy or an adolescent dog from a shelter ever being able to settle in that environment AND learn.  In someone else's thread, another member made the point that you don't really teach the dog DURING class, the trainer trains you how to teach, and you do it all on your own as homework.  I personally would not expect to see much from puppies or basic level dogs during the classes.  Not settling and/or nipping can be a behavioral problem, but it can also be a puppy going through a fear stage that is being exposed to WAY too much distraction and under pressure to learn and perform commands that are brand new.  The most helpful obedience class I ever took was one I went to...without a dog!  Good point. Totally agree about the high strung distractions, even Kayla (she's my demo dog right now) goofs sometimes because all the kids are like "ahhh look at all the dogs! bla bla bla" and yes it is really hard and intimidating for a dog which I totally expect. I have a budget so I go out and buy all the pet parents books & I create my own binder full of fun games, activites, and helpful training tips. I make a lesson plan then I give assigned homework for the week. My puppy classes are 6months old or younger and they are all so fun, loving, and eager to learn it's just so cute. Basic Obedience is 6months to whatever age... and this is where I run into trouble. First class is NO DOGS ALLOWED only the owners and we sit and discuss why they are here, what they hope for out of the class, I get to know them all on a more personal level... etc etc. Then I give them an outline of the class plus we'll add in what they would like to learn (and this is where people shout out "ow can we do Dog Whisperer stuff!") JRT & Golden (off of the experience I have right now) I would say were clear behavior cases. Hopefully my advice and reaching out to them can encourage them to see a professional. Both dogs were older (more than 3 years old) and it was like this clear deprived frustraition I could almost feel from them... it really was a new experience to me. Not to be weird or anything but I really did feel this sad energy coming from them. My heart goes out to them... I'll keep in mind about noticing warning signs based on maybe pushing the pups too far during class; but for the most part we like to all have fun and learn some cool things the "average" pet parent doesn't know. I've even encouraged a lot of the dog LOVERS to check out forums like this on the web! I think my GM got nervious when the CEI before me left and we didn't have classes for a little while so I'm getting throw with this mass amount of clients with who knows what dogs... I'll have to discuss that with her...

  Post Points: 0

• 03-25-2008 1:33 PM

  In reply to Liesje

  corgipower Joined on 09-10-2007 new jersey Posts 779 Points 0

  Re: Incorporating Cesar CORRECTLY Reply Contact Pom, I do hope that since you are now teaching classes, that you are finding a variety of resources to further your education and skills - and not just on message boards, and also outside of the petco chain. Take classes somewhere, join a kennel club, etc. Corp doesn't really care whether or not you can train a dog, as long as you have clients and make money for them. One week is extremely insufficient for somebody to learn how to be a dog trainer. The best trainers are the ones who stay within their own limitations. No one can be proficient in every aspect of dog training. When something is outside of your abilities, it is always better to refer them to someone else. As for using Cesar's philosophies in your training, what I would suggest is explain to the clients that you are not CM and that his methods are for television and are for extreme cases. Explain to them why your methods are better. Teach what you know. As your education progresses, you can add more to what you teach. Also, you should speak with your manager about how to handle such situations. You're probably better off getting guidance and assistance from your supervisor, rather than getting in over your head and ending up with problems that can't be fixed. Proud member of the tenth place CISRA 2008 team!! tweleve.org corgipower.com My Dog Votes!

  Post Points: 0

• 03-25-2008 1:37 PM

  In reply to Gizmo83036

  Pomeranian <3 Joined on 01-03-2008 MASSACHUSETTS Posts 1,065 Points 545

  Re: Incorporating Cesar CORRECTLY Reply Contact Gizmo83036: Pomeranian <3: The training was easy and only took one week plus a test & more observation hours   After a weeks training you're doing puppy, basic, intermediate and CGC?!? Again, nothing against you but there is no way to be qualified for all that in a week. Petco is irresponsible in letting inexperienced trainers handle problem dogs. I'm only doing puppy & basic right now. No inquiries about Intermediate & CGC yet (which I'm glad b/c I'm not ready just yet... still more reading, studying, and planning I'd like to do first). I also want to throw in extra activity classes like Agility, etc... I have to talk to corporate about that. PETCO isn't irresponsible at all, the owners are. If I was aware that my dog had behavior issues I wouldn't sign up for a class. But it is obvious that the owners are not aware of their dogs behavior. The thing I am going to discuss tho is that I should be in charge of who takes my class. And maybe this one other Team Lead who knows a lot about dogs too. Inititally PETCO was just promoting like crazy and we just took in who ever wanted to come. That's the only irresponsible thing part I can think of... which I am going to talk about with them on Thursday. But as for a week of training plus a test and that's really it... yeah that's all you need. Do I agree with that? No way, I've met some horrible PETCO trainers b/c of it... Lucky enough I really really have a passion for dogs and I've been doing great with raising Kayla, researching, and looking for lots of advice. I may not be the most experienced person but one day I hope to be.

  Post Points: 0

• 03-25-2008 1:45 PM

  In reply to corgipower

  Pomeranian <3 Joined on 01-03-2008 MASSACHUSETTS Posts 1,065 Points 545

  Re: Incorporating Cesar CORRECTLY Reply Contact corgipower: Pom, I do hope that since you are now teaching classes, that you are finding a variety of resources to further your education and skills - and not just on message boards, and also outside of the petco chain. Take classes somewhere, join a kennel club, etc. Corp doesn't really care whether or not you can train a dog, as long as you have clients and make money for them. One week is extremely insufficient for somebody to learn how to be a dog trainer. LOL oh yes believe me... See, since this is all via the internet I assume people look at me like "wait what the crazy girl who comes on the forum constantly asking for advice is all of a sudden a trainer" yeah I know that's what everyone sees and assumes. The fact is if you saw my apartment I have a whole entire book case of training books & manuels. I'm about to become an official member of the Bay Colony Pomeranian Club and I'll be participating in local obedience & agility trials (waiting for the new puppy to arrive and settle first). I plan on learning to Exhibit & possibly Handle dogs in the ring (as yet another hobby) I've also been discussing with a lot of friends (and Pwca from the forum, thanks hun!) about going back to school to obtain two different associates degrees: one in Behavior Science and another for Vet Tech purposes. Eventually I want to work part-time with local shelters and help rescued dogs recover and learn basic obedience. My LONG TERM goal is to open a New England Small Dog Rehabilitation Rescue & Shelter... So yeah I'm the crazy girl who gets bored with my office job and checks the forum a lot... but what I'm doing is bouncing off different ideas going through my head trying to get an opinion from a certain "media" of people. And thank you to everyone with some great advice you've offered.

  Post Points: 0

• 03-25-2008 1:47 PM

  In reply to corgipower

  Pomeranian <3 Joined on 01-03-2008 MASSACHUSETTS Posts 1,065 Points 545

  Re: Incorporating Cesar CORRECTLY Reply Contact corgipower: The best trainers are the ones who stay within their own limitations. No one can be proficient in every aspect of dog training. When something is outside of your abilities, it is always better to refer them to someone else. As for using Cesar's philosophies in your training, what I would suggest is explain to the clients that you are not CM and that his methods are for television and are for extreme cases. Explain to them why your methods are better. Teach what you know. As your education progresses, you can add more to what you teach. Also, you should speak with your manager about how to handle such situations. You're probably better off getting guidance and assistance from your supervisor, rather than getting in over your head and ending up with problems that can't be fixed. Yep exactly! Totally agree 100% which is why I'm not afraid to say "ahh timeout I don't think I can handle this..." And I will be speaking with management on Thursday

  Post Points: 0

• 03-25-2008 1:55 PM

  In reply to Pomeranian <3

  Gizmo83036 Joined on 02-07-2007 Southwest US Posts 134 Points 0

  Re: Incorporating Cesar CORRECTLY Reply Contact Pomeranian <3: PETCO isn't irresponsible at all, the owners are. If I was aware that my dog had behavior issues I wouldn't sign up for a class. But it is obvious that the owners are not aware of their dogs behavior.   The owners are at least somewhat aware of their dog's behavior or they wouldn't be taking a class, and I'm willing to bet that they wouldn't be taking that class if they knew their teacher only has a week of training. Some other people have stated things much better than I have, so I'll leave it to them after stating bluntly... you are in over your head and Petco is irresponsible in putting you there. They are a supply store first and foremost, with training added as a money maker, and training just doesn't work like that.

  Post Points: 0

• 03-25-2008 2:00 PM

  In reply to Gizmo83036

  rwbeagles Joined on 09-10-2007 DFW, TX Posts 14,543 Points 2,025

  Re: Incorporating Cesar CORRECTLY Reply Contact Mod speaking, We're all perhaps a bit sidetracked...discussions on training criterium etc perhaps could be another thread. This thread was started with a specific question/inquiry...let's stick to that. Hand raised guilty for wandering. Returning to topic here...everyone else should do the same, and let's remember that we need to avoid getting personal, and refrain from the same ole' back and forth that can cause a thread to lose all sense of direction. Thanks! Gina H. dog.community Moderator "But my dreams...they aren't as empty, as my conscience seems to be."-The Who

  Post Points: 0

• 03-25-2008 2:06 PM

  In reply to Gizmo83036

  Pomeranian <3 Joined on 01-03-2008 MASSACHUSETTS Posts 1,065 Points 545

  Re: Incorporating Cesar CORRECTLY Reply Contact Gizmo83036: The owners are at least somewhat aware of their dog's behavior or they wouldn't be taking a class, and I'm willing to bet that they wouldn't be taking that class if they knew their teacher only has a week of training. Some other people have stated things much better than I have, so I'll leave it to them after stating bluntly... you are in over your head and Petco is irresponsible in putting you there. They are a supply store first and foremost, with training added as a money maker, and training just doesn't work like that. Anyone I work with is well aware I'm the new trainer. But they still take the classes because I know things they don't know and they have all ready seen great results. Some people are even repeats from the last trainer and have comment on my "better skills" verses him. In life you have to start somewhere. It's like from the book Matilda where Ms. Trunchbull says "I was never a child"; some people can stand the fact that in life at some point you were vulnerable and a beginner. I'm not afraid with knowing that right now I'm not an expert but I am okay with saying that when it comes to my current classes I am well aware of what I am doing and what I'm capable of. What I'm not able to do is help aggressive & anxiety problem based dogs; because I'm not a professional behaviorist I'm a basic obedience trainer. And if what PETCO, PETSMART, etc don't "work" then why do people continue to use our services and come back??? Some people lose sight of the fact that most pet owners just want a basic obedient well behaved dog. Some people don't even know where to begin when teaching "sit" or when it comes to proper  socializing or good nutrition or good exercise... thats where people like me come in. Do I think I'm some expert? No and never claimed to be. But one day maybe after years of working with dogs, learning, and growing, I too can become a professional... but you have to start SOMEWHERE **To get back onto topic** (thanks & sorry Gina) As most of you know I have stated that the Dog Whisperer is just a TV show and if they feel their dog is at that level then they need to consult someone else since it is an obedience class not a specific behavior class. Exercise & Discpline CM methods have opened up people's eyes a lot; same with using that "one word" to redirect behavior... but if I witness any type of red flag people from now on I'm going to suggest else where for them.

  Post Points: 0

• 04-13-2008 9:53 PM

  In reply to Gizmo83036

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 9,945 Points 715

  Re: Incorporating Cesar CORRECTLY Reply Contact Gizmo83036: Pomeranian <3: 30% of them are rescue dogs with a lot of behavior issues that go beyond the need of basic obedience I got biten by a JRT in a private session... bit... they left because they felt so guilty. After becoming a basic obedience trainer I have realized how many more dogs have behavior issues verses obedience issues help!! it's making me, a first time trainer, SCARED!   Some dogs have no business being in a training environment like Petco, particularly with an inexperienced trainer. Nothing against you or Petco, but you shouldn't be referring these people to Cesar, you should be referring them to a qualified behaviorist that will make in-home visits or works out of a dedicated training facility. I admire that you are trying to help, but some situations may be out of your ability, even with the great advice you may get here.   Since I am an experienced trainer who also does behavior consultations, I want to echo these sentiments.  To be honest, I know that you are quite inexperienced just from your posts on the board (that's not a criticism, we all started somewhere), and I'm thinking that before you start incorporating Cesar's methods (or anyone else's, for that matter), that you really do need to spend some more time learning from more experienced trainers, observing dogs, going to seminars, seeing (in real life) what works and what doesn't and examining the work of other trainers and behaviorists, not just want to incorporate his ideas because they are popular with the general public.  You aren't there to pander, you are there to educate.  It is a complete contradiction to tell people, on one hand, that they can get their dogs to walk nicely (whether in front, next to, or behind them) using clicker training, and then refer them to a methodology that suggests that you keep the dog on a short leash and force it to walk behind using physical means.  You may get a lot of rubes who won't notice, but you'll have a hard time explaining the rationale to someone who sees the incongruity of that and poses the question to you.  Generally, the two philosophies are incompatible.  That's not to say that there aren't some things that Cesar does that are acceptable and fine to do, but if you recommend his ideas, you need to be prepared for the fact that some of your clients will try more of them than you planned on... As to the Jrt incident - you got bitten, so go back in your mind and try to determine what you did that caused it (it may not have been your fault, but all good trainers self-examine). Did you approach the dog frontally?  Did you stick your hand out or let the dog come to you?  Did you stare or loom over the dog?  Did you attempt to take its collar?   What led to the bite, and what could you have done differently?  If you want to PM, I'm happy to try to help you analyze and not have it happen again.    Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 19 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

  Post Points: 0

• 04-14-2008 8:23 PM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 9,945 Points 715

  Re: Incorporating Cesar CORRECTLY Reply Contact To answer your question: And if what PETCO, PETSMART, etc don't "work" then why do people continue to use our services and come back??? In my neck of the woods, people go there because you charge less for your classes.  Puppy class at PETCO - $109.  Puppy class with me - $140. Puppy class with my friend - $150.  Puppy class at my nearest competitor  - $155.   Anyway, my sense is that you need to decide what your basic training philosophy is.  Then, try to learn more from the experienced trainers who share your world view.  Mixing Cesar with clicker training is somewhat akin to mixing apples and oranges.  Both fruit, but leave a different taste in the mouth. Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 19 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

  Post Points: 0

• 04-19-2008 6:39 PM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  FourIsCompany Joined on 07-30-2007 Posts 4,723 Points 1,135	Re: Incorporating Cesar CORRECTLY Reply Contact spiritdogs: Mixing Cesar with clicker training is somewhat akin to mixing apples and oranges.  Both fruit, but leave a different taste in the mouth.   Mmmmm... Don't you just LOVE fruit salad?   LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself) Click Daily to Give Free Food and Care to Animals: http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3
  	Post Points: 0

• 04-19-2008 7:03 PM

  In reply to FourIsCompany

  glenmar Joined on 09-10-2007 Northwestern Michigan Posts 11,384 Points 405

  Re: Incorporating Cesar CORRECTLY Reply Contact I'm not a trainer, didn't stay at a HOliday Inn last night, and don't even play one on TV........ That said , I absolutely disagree with mixing +R with CM's basic stuff.  And I do agree with Anne that the two are really not compatible.  I also agree that your job is to educate and not "give in the demands" for something that basically goes against what YOU believe in. You may already be doing this, but in your first class, and every one thereafter, I'd suggest driving home the point that you are there to teach the humans how to teach the dogs.  Your job really isn't to teach the dogs, but to teach the people how to do so.  At least, that's my understanding of a trainers job. And wow, talk about being up to your *** in alligators.  You really got thrown into the deep end.   A house without fur is not a home. Glenda

  Post Points: 0

• 05-04-2008 9:00 AM

  In reply to glenmar

  ron2 Joined on 09-10-2007 far north central Texas Posts 9,464 Points 500

  Re: Incorporating Cesar CORRECTLY Reply Contact I agree with a lot of the points here. Decide on your training philosophy and see how that fits in with the Petco situation. And, unless Petco has changed a directive, you are not there to teach CM techniques, even if they have worked for some elsewhere. Let the people that want to research that go and do it on their own. At our local Petsmart, the trainer uses clickers and she is upfront about that. If a client is uncomfortable with that, they are welcome to go elsewhere, not a as a rude blow-off but simply in the sense of "if this isn't what you are looking for, then you should seek that thing though it may lead away from here." Also be mindful that CM does not think of himself as a dog trainer but as a people trainer and a person who tries to re-establish the role of the dog within the family, based on his notions of pack and leader, etc. Which may or may not have much to do with obedience and socialization classes. And actually, the professional liability of the store and yourself is better suited by referring to a behaviorist, rather than a t.v. show. Yes, it is possible to encounter adults old enough to vote and raise families and hold jobs and sign legal and binding contracts who can be grossly unaware of other things in other areas and simply go by what they see on t.v. You will run into that, ad nauseum. The hard part, of course, is to steer them in the right directions without appearing to do so, so that they can think it was their idea from the start. So, you have to be a bit of a human psychologist, too.   The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb

  Post Points: 0

• 05-04-2008 9:20 AM

  In reply to ron2

  FourIsCompany Joined on 07-30-2007 Posts 4,723 Points 1,135

  Re: Incorporating Cesar CORRECTLY Reply Contact ron2: Also be mindful that CM does not think of himself as a dog trainer but as a people trainer and a person who tries to re-establish the role of the dog within the family, based on his notions of pack and leader, etc.   Excellent point, ron! And the very reason that clicker-training or positive training or dog-friendly training or whatever denomination one calls themselves CAN be incorporated with Cesar's philosophy. It can be done and it is done all the time. I do it every day. I train my dogs with positive reinforcement for the most part, while being a strong, calm and assertive leader. The best of all worlds! ron2: The hard part, of course, is to steer them in the right directions without appearing to do so, so that they can think it was their idea from the start.   Oh, yay. Just what I want from my trainer. To be manipulated and deceived instead of having them be up front and honest with me. Yeah, I'd pay for that... NOT. LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself) Click Daily to Give Free Food and Care to Animals: http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

  Post Points: 0