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Natural dog training - pushing

Last post 05-08-2008 4:35 PM by Chuffy. 344 replies.
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  • 05-04-2008 7:14 AM In reply to luvmyswissy

    • ron2
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    Re: Natural dog training - pushing

    luvmyswissy:

    Salut Ron,

    Juste en vérifiant pour voir si vous pouvez vraiment lire l'allemand ?Wink

    Ich kann Deutch lesen als besser dann Francische.

     

    The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb


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  • 05-04-2008 7:20 AM In reply to spiritdogs

    • ron2
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    Re: Natural dog training - pushing

    spiritdogs:
    Je pense que Ron connaît quelques mots en M''kmaq et Dine. Alors, il fait probablement lire l'allemand aussi.

    That one I did have to get translated. I know just enough words in french to get myself in trouble.

    And yes, Luvmyswissy, Anne is full of surprises.

    Y mucha peligra in otra Idiomas. Yo sabe nada. Wink

     

     

    The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb


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  • 05-04-2008 10:44 AM In reply to ron2

    Re: Natural dog training - pushing

    ron2:

    luvmyswissy:

    Salut Ron,

    Juste en vérifiant pour voir si vous pouvez vraiment lire l'allemand ?Wink

    Ich kann Deutch lesen als besser dann Francische.

     Me too.  That was fun. Big Smile

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  • 05-04-2008 11:39 AM In reply to FourIsCompany

    Re: Natural dog training - pushing


    FourIsCompany:

    DPU:
    What goes around comes around. 
    I was thinking the same thing. It's common for people who try clicker training with less than "positive" results to be accused of not doing it right. There was even a clicker training thread challenging people to give it the benefit of the doubt...

    "Not by trying it a few times in your living room, with no help.  Not by doing it incorrectly because no one ever showed you the correct way, or explained the principles behind it.  But, by actually going out and paying for a class, taking the complete course, and really doing the homework each week.  [...] doing the lessons each week might be better than criticizing without fully giving it the old college try."

    And then we have several people here saying that they have "tried" the pushing exercise (but didn't do it according to the instructions) and it didn't work or make any difference, or that their dog's bad behavior is actually resultant of the exercise, so therefore it's basically crap and to blame for the dogs' excitability or whatever. Interesting shoe-on-the-other-foot situation.


     

    Hardly fair.  I also BELIEVE I did it right,  but I am OPEN to the fact I may have made some mistake (it being new to me)  However I have had ZERO feedback from you or LCK on this. 

    As an example, when DPU told us of his experience with Marvin and clicker training, myself and others said "this sounds like what happens when your rate of reinforcemet is not high enough".  And, after much teeth pulling, we discovered that his rate of reinforcement probably WASN'T high enough for that dog.  I was NOT criticsing him, I was NOT just saying "oh you did it wrong" I was trying to HELP, based on my personal experience.  SO that he may have more success next time.

    Now the shoe is indeed on the other foot and I'm not getting that kind of help.  Kim at least, was informed she should have fed the entire meal this way.  

    I tried this with an open mind because this thread got me curious and it was made plain early on that people WANTED people to try it.  Now I have had no feedback and I feel like I wasted my time.  And, more fool me, risked my son's head in the process. I dunno, maybe all you "fans" of this exercise have just got me on "manual ignore".  Or I just missed something.  *shrugs* 

    FourIsCompany:
    You guys know what books I've bought and am reading (I LOVE Bones from the sky, BTW!)
     

     

    HOW many times did I tell you you would love that book.  I am genuinely glad you got it and you're enjoying it.  

    "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." (Pratchett, Jingo)

    "I used to look at [my dog] Smokey and think, 'If you were a little smarter you could tell me what you were thinking,' and he'd look at me like he was saying, 'If you were a little smarter, I wouldn't have to.'" - Fred Jungclaus
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  • 05-04-2008 12:52 PM In reply to Chuffy

    Re: Natural dog training - pushing

    Chuffy:
    However I have had ZERO feedback from you or LCK on this. 
     

    I don't have feedback. I'm sorry, I don't really know what you did or how you did it or for how long and I don't know enough about the methodology to even be qualified to give proper feedback. The most important thing I don't know is whether your dog would have gone for the sausage in William's hand had you NEVER done the pushing exercise at all. The pushing exercise doesn't claim to cure all bad behavior, so I am not sure it is to blame for the dog's reaching out to William (I'm REALLY glad he's ok!)  

    My dogs would NEVER jump out to take something from anyone's hand without permission. That's just a basic of good manners here. To be fair, the food was being offered to the dog. Now, if I had done the exercise and my dogs started jumping at food, then I would certainly wonder about it. But I had JUST THE OPPOSITE result. B'asia takes food from my hands more gently than ever.  

    Secondly, I am NOT saying that anyone did it wrong. Smile I said I believe I'm the only one who followed the instructions completely. I don't know exactly what you did. That's why I say "I believe". My point was that when someone says "the clicker doesn't work for me", the first thing out of the mouths of some is, "Well, then you're doing it wrong." But when that shoe is on the other foot, as it is in this thread, it's the method or technique that is faulty, not the operator. That is my ONLY point in getting back into this thread. I have nothing to prove about pushing.

    By the way, I tend to think that in 90% of the cases, if someone's having trouble with clicking, they're doing something wrong.  Wink

    LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself)

    Click Daily to Give Free Food and Care to Animals:
    http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3
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  • 05-04-2008 4:20 PM In reply to FourIsCompany

    Re: Natural dog training - pushing

    FourIsCompany:
    I don't have feedback. I'm sorry, I don't really know what you did or how you did it or for how long and I don't know enough about the methodology to even be qualified to give proper feedback. The most important thing I don't know is whether your dog would have gone for the sausage in William's hand had you NEVER done the pushing exercise at all. The pushing exercise doesn't claim to cure all bad behavior, so I am not sure it is to blame for the dog's reaching out to William (I'm REALLY glad he's ok!)  
     

    No I was not confident she wouldn't have gone for the sausage either.  That's why I placed my hand on her chest, in addition to giving her a verbal cue.  I am reasonably confident that she would not have PUSHED past my hand without me doing this exercise for almost a week solid.  In EVERY other area of life with her, my hands on her in that manner are for gentle guidance or restraint and she accepts that.  Or she did.  I am confident that if she had taken anything from him, she would have done so gently, not hit him with all the momentum behind her her "push", which would have been enough to push ME over never mind a baby).  It wasn't her TAKING the food that was the problem.  She still takes food gently.  She just thought it was time for that game again, and I wasn't ready for it.  She was probably expecting to feel more resistance from me to be honest.

     

    FourIsCompany:
    My point was that when someone says "the clicker doesn't work for me", the first thing out of the mouths of some is, "Well, then you're doing it wrong." But when that shoe is on the other foot, as it is in this thread, it's the method or technique that is faulty, not the operator. That is my ONLY point in getting back into this thread. I have nothing to prove about pushing.

    Well MY point is that I would APPRECIATE someone telling me I may have done it wrong!  For someone - anyone - to pipe up and say, "that sounds familiar -I had that problem and it turned out to be because I did X instead of Y".  (Just as some of us did with DPU for example) Because no one has done that, or even told me what specific details they needed to hazard a guess as to where I went wrong, then I can only surmise that it OS the method taht is faulty and will eave well alone until I have gleaned more information... enough to change my opinion. 

    "Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." (Pratchett, Jingo)

    "I used to look at [my dog] Smokey and think, 'If you were a little smarter you could tell me what you were thinking,' and he'd look at me like he was saying, 'If you were a little smarter, I wouldn't have to.'" - Fred Jungclaus
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  • 05-04-2008 8:40 PM In reply to Chuffy

    • ron2
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    Re: Natural dog training - pushing

    Funny thing is, when I need pointers on clickers, and someone said, you need to try it this way, I took it as just that. Advice. However, when I ran into a glitch, I didn't run in saying that clckers don't work or wrong. Maybe because the science and method is clearcut and simple, with an elegant mathematical simplicity. I might go as far as to say that it's binary. (Had to sneak in a math term. Bad Ron, bad Ron ...) But, I haven't seen many here complain that we are telling them that they are doing it wrong with a bad attitude or intention of making them feel less than capable. Now, if someone is throwing the treat then clicking, they are doing it wrong and there's no way to say that it's not wrong. Maybe it's just the way I take advice. I don't assume that I know everything and I lack the right vanity to feel affronted if someone says I was doing it wrong. Maybe, I'm just lucky, having had success with it from the start, even with some of my stumblings or self-perceived mistakes.

    But not once did someone say that I was incapable of using clickers, even if I had expressed doubt previously. No one said I couldn't understand how to do it when I was not into clickers before. But, I have been told that I can't be trusted to do the pushing exercise because I have theoretical problems with it and I didn't do it exactly as described. I have been told that I stuck in a paradigm. I've actually been through more than a few paradigms. "You know I've been to the edge. And I stood and looked down. I lost of lot of friends there, baby. Got no time to mess around ..."

    I used to defend Cesar Millan, even though I wasn't using his techniques. Now, I take issue with his techniques and some of his philosophy and that has cost me, as well as putting me "in the other camp."

    So, in the end, it doesn't hurt my feelings that I didn't do it right. And perhaps, I am stuck in a paradigm and the experiences of Kim and Chuffy seem to confirm my thoughts. Kim, our Lady of no Labels, And Chuffy, who mentions previously using physical pressure as a needed barricade, something I have not done in quite some time. People that I would trust to "give it the old college try." Balanced with Four's positive experience and evident adherence to the procedure. Yet, I wonder, with the positive results, she still went to see about CAT. No judgement there, just highlighting her "salad bar" approach, and there's nothing wrong with that. Dogs do what works, so do people.

    Maybe I just have a tough hide and, as I have said before, most of my feelings have been burned out or surgically removed. I do have a few feelings left but they are well-guarded.

    The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb


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  • 05-04-2008 8:47 PM In reply to ron2

    Re: Natural dog training - pushing

    ron2:
    Yet, I wonder, with the positive results, she still went to see about CAT.
     

    Oh, Jeez! You're going THERE? LOL I didn't "go to see about" CAT. I didn't search it out. A trainer mentioned it to me and I did research on it. That's all. 

    And I am proud of my salad bar approach. Fruit salad, vegetable salad, meat salad, whatever. I prefer to look at all the offerings and take what I like than to subsist on radishes alone. Smile
     

    LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself)

    Click Daily to Give Free Food and Care to Animals:
    http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3
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  • 05-04-2008 9:21 PM In reply to FourIsCompany

    • ron2
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    Re: Natural dog training - pushing

    FourIsCompany:

    Oh, Jeez! You're going THERE? LOL I didn't "go to see about" CAT. I didn't search it out. A trainer mentioned it to me and I did research on it. That's all. 

    Didn't mean to offend. I think you still did the right things.

    FourIsCompany:
    And I am proud of my salad bar approach

     

    "Salad bar" was meant as a compliment. Did you read the rest of the phrase? Dogs do what works and so do humans.

     

    The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb


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  • 05-05-2008 6:56 AM In reply to ron2

    • corvus
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    Re: Natural dog training - pushing

    Chuffy, the kind of problem you encountered was exactly the kind of thing that I had misgivings about with this exercise. I feel a little like the discussion was so centred around discrediting that I don't know which way to turn and who to believe. After what you experienced, and being told that the exercise has no place in the life of a dog with no apparent behavioural issues, I've gone pretty cold on it all of a sudden. 4IC likes her salad bar approach and I like my "paint all animals with the same brush, just pick the right colour" approach. I don't think either of us or any other approach people on this board have is necessarily superior or "the right way". One thing I've learnt is that animals get accustomed to the way you do things, which kind of turns most approaches into the "right" approach for that dog, barring the person taking an approach that jars wildly with a particular animal's personality.

    So my conclusion, once again, is to stick to things that come naturally to me.

    Incidentally, Penny is apparently over whatever inhibition she's had for the majority of her life about playing with people. Yesterday she not only played with me all on her own, but jumped all over me in a very uncharacteristically exuberant way while she was at it. I can only assume she's missed me and has forgotten about her playing inhibition. So I no longer have a reason to do the exercise anyway. 

    Melissa's family: Penny - corgi, Kit - wild hare, Bonnie - rabbit, Kivi Tarro - Finnish Lapphund

    "She's always talking about her hare."
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  • 05-05-2008 8:47 AM In reply to corvus

    Re: Natural dog training - pushing

    corvus:
    So my conclusion, once again, is to stick to things that come naturally to me.
     

    That's great advice!  I agree! If it doesn't "feel" right to you, for heaven's sake, don't do it!

    Ron, I'm not at all offended. Just amused. Really. Smile 

    LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself)

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  • 05-05-2008 2:19 PM In reply to ron2

    • Winnie's Dad
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    Re: Natural dog training - pushing

    ron2:
    "You know I've been to the edge. And I stood and looked down. I lost of lot of friends there, baby. Got no time to mess around ..."

    I come in and lurk on this thread from time to time, first, because I was interested in reading about the pushing exercise and NDT, and later to watch the pushing exercise and mental sparring that ensued.   I NEVER would have expected to find a Van Halen quote in here, so Kudos to ron2 for adding a chuckle to my lunchtime lurking.

    ~wd

    (this space available for a witty sig...)
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  • 05-05-2008 8:52 PM In reply to Winnie's Dad

    • ron2
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    Re: Natural dog training - pushing

    Winnie's Dad:

    I come in and lurk on this thread from time to time, first, because I was interested in reading about the pushing exercise and NDT, and later to watch the pushing exercise and mental sparring that ensued.   I NEVER would have expected to find a Van Halen quote in here, so Kudos to ron2 for adding a chuckle to my lunchtime lurking.

    And points for you for catching that. I wasn't sure if anyone might catch the lyrics as being oddly familiar.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C4v8ZEGcYU&feature=related

     

    The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb


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  • 05-05-2008 10:49 PM In reply to ron2

    Re: Natural dog training - pushing

    ron2:
    But, I have been told that I can't be trusted to do the pushing exercise because I have theoretical problems with it and I didn't do it exactly as described. I have been told that I stuck in a paradigm. I've actually been through more than a few paradigms.
     

    I never said I didn't trust you to do it, just that I wasn't sure if I could trust the results you and others might get with it. You in particular seemed very intent on trying to fit it into your known paradigm in ways that, to me, were several layers of hypotheses built on top of more layers of speculation. That's my impression. And as for changing paradigms, I would also remind you that if I remember correctly you have even said that you were stuck in the dominance paradigm for a while, and it took you some time to let it go. Or did I get that wrong?

    LCK 

    "Clicker training has not taught me a whole bunch, other than that people can get wrapped up in fads and catch phrases." Bob Bailey

    "If a lion could talk we would not be able to understand him." Wittegenstein. "If a lion could talk we would understand him perfectly, but we would learn very little about ordinary lions from him."Daniel C. Dennett

    "Dogs don't care who's alpha and who's not. Only emotionally dysfunctional owners and trainers do." Jack Field
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  • 05-05-2008 10:58 PM In reply to Chuffy

    Re: Natural dog training - pushing

    Chuffy:
    Hardly fair.  I also BELIEVE I did it right,  but I am OPEN to the fact I may have made some mistake (it being new to me)  However I have had ZERO feedback from you or LCK on this. 
     

    I'm sorry for that. The only thing I read was what seemed to me to be a very cryptic statement of yours, something to the effect of, "so I did the exercise and guess what happened?" Well, I don't know what happened. That's a mystery to me.

    The only other thing of yours I saw was quote in someone else's post where there was a reference to something about the exercise giving the dog "bog" eyes a term I've never encountered before (unless that was a typo for "bug" eyes). So, I have no idea how you did the exercise or what exactly your results were. Maybe you posted something else that was more descriptive and decipherable (to me at least) and I just didn't see it. Sorry.

    And by the way I'm not criticizing anybody for "doing it wrong." Ron didn't even do the exercise, really, and I don't know if Kim's ideologically-driven omission of the one of the rules is responsible for her results or not. I do know that you can't judge the exercise based on three pieces of possible data that weren't even observed directly by someone who actually knows how to judge the performance and the results.

    It sounds like you're not really interested in pursuing this, which is fine. I'm not here to push the exercise. But, seriously, if you need my help or input, you kind of have to ask me for it directly. Sorry. 

    LCK 

    "Clicker training has not taught me a whole bunch, other than that people can get wrapped up in fads and catch phrases." Bob Bailey

    "If a lion could talk we would not be able to understand him." Wittegenstein. "If a lion could talk we would understand him perfectly, but we would learn very little about ordinary lions from him."Daniel C. Dennett

    "Dogs don't care who's alpha and who's not. Only emotionally dysfunctional owners and trainers do." Jack Field
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