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Generalization

Last post 03-26-2008 6:52 AM by ron2. 25 replies.
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  • 03-19-2008 3:30 PM In reply to Lee Charles Kelley

    Re: Generalization

    Lee Charles Kelley:

    GoldenAC: "I wish I had the full citation for the article I was reading, but it is at work, and I am at home, but it is from the most cutting edge group working on animal cognition today (the article is from 2005, I think).  It clearly shows that the dog was able to generalize, maybe not to the extent of humans, but it was much more than mere pattern recognition.  The dog had to generalize the idea of imitation in novel situations and conceptualize what the human was doing and act in a way that was similar, given the difference in the morphological difference between the human and dog."

    You say "cutting edge," but these researchers have always struck me as more like teenage kids doing a high school science project. Every one of their "studies" have major flaws in them. The last supposedly proved that dogs can conceptualize, but all that happened was 8 dogs were taught that if they touched their nose to a screen when a photo of a dog was on it, they got a treat. If they touched their nose to the screen when they saw a photo of a tree, they didn't. Which proves nothing except that dogs are good at two things: pattern recognition, and getting treats.

    LCK 

    Their research is published in the most respected peer reviewed cognitive science journals and is generally accepted and taught by the scientific community.  I spoke to a friend who is currently teaching a cognitive psychology class at the University of Michigan and will be teaching a class in dog behavior and cognition at the U next fall about these studies a week or two ago.  She has a lot of respect for these studies and researchers. 

    I am not a psychologist, so I will take my friend's and the peer reviewed journal's word that the research is good.
     

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  • 03-19-2008 6:20 PM In reply to GoldenAC

    Re: Generalization

    GoldenAC:
    Their research is published in the most respected peer reviewed cognitive science journals and is generally accepted and taught by the scientific community.

    If you're talking about this group that works in Austria (at the Max Planck Institute (with colleagues in Hungary), that's simply not true. The selective imitation study you alluded to was done with the dog's owners right there, giving them cues as to how to behave! Their most recent study (which I alluded to) was clearly a matter of learning and not cognition.

    Yes, these "researchers" have a few vocal supporters (like Marc Beckoff, who's now retired and giving seminars on how he believes animals have souls, which is a fine sentiment but hardly a scientific one), but my impression is that the vast majority of serious cognitive scientists don't give the slightest credence to their work. And by the way, when I saw a drawing they provided of the harness they fashioned for the selective imitation study I nearly fell off my chair. I looked like it was made out of an old gunny sack, held together with baling twine! I'm all for talented amateur scientists poking around with new theories, but to call these people "cutting edge!" They probably had to borrow the screen for their latest study from the local high school's AV department.

    GoldenAC:
    I spoke to a friend who is currently teaching a cognitive psychology class at the University of Michigan and will be teaching a class in dog behavior and cognition at the U next fall about these studies a week or two ago.  She has a lot of respect for these studies and researchers. 

     

    Well, maybe your friend knows something about them that I don't. If so, I would love to hear from her. But I tend to trust the kind of serious cognitive scientists who very politely pointed out that the results they got in their "selective imitation" study was "probably" just learning, and not evidence that the dogs imitated the border collie because "they thought he had a good reason" for doing what he did.

    LCK 

    "Clicker training has not taught me a whole bunch, other than that people can get wrapped up in fads and catch phrases." Bob Bailey

    "If a lion could talk we would not be able to understand him." Wittegenstein. "If a lion could talk we would understand him perfectly, but we would learn very little about ordinary lions from him."Daniel C. Dennett

    "Dogs don't care who's alpha and who's not. Only emotionally dysfunctional owners and trainers do." Jack Field
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  • 03-20-2008 9:55 PM In reply to Lee Charles Kelley

    • ron2
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    Re: Generalization

    Lee Charles Kelley:
    But I tend to trust the kind of serious cognitive scientists who very politely pointed out that the results they got in their "selective imitation" study was "

    Does this mean that the referenced studies that wil be part of the university's teaching materials are not serious or are without merit? And are the studies without merit because they had a tight budget and made do with what they had?

    The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb


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  • 03-21-2008 2:35 PM In reply to Lee Charles Kelley

    Re: Generalization

    Lee Charles Kelley:

    GoldenAC:
    Their research is published in the most respected peer reviewed cognitive science journals and is generally accepted and taught by the scientific community.

    If you're talking about this group that works in Austria (at the Max Planck Institute (with colleagues in Hungary), that's simply not true. The selective imitation study you alluded to was done with the dog's owners right there, giving them cues as to how to behave! Their most recent study (which I alluded to) was clearly a matter of learning and not cognition.

    Yes, these "researchers" have a few vocal supporters (like Marc Beckoff, who's now retired and giving seminars on how he believes animals have souls, which is a fine sentiment but hardly a scientific one), but my impression is that the vast majority of serious cognitive scientists don't give the slightest credence to their work. And by the way, when I saw a drawing they provided of the harness they fashioned for the selective imitation study I nearly fell off my chair. I looked like it was made out of an old gunny sack, held together with baling twine! I'm all for talented amateur scientists poking around with new theories, but to call these people "cutting edge!" They probably had to borrow the screen for their latest study from the local high school's AV department.

    GoldenAC:
    I spoke to a friend who is currently teaching a cognitive psychology class at the University of Michigan and will be teaching a class in dog behavior and cognition at the U next fall about these studies a week or two ago.  She has a lot of respect for these studies and researchers. 

     

    Well, maybe your friend knows something about them that I don't. If so, I would love to hear from her. But I tend to trust the kind of serious cognitive scientists who very politely pointed out that the results they got in their "selective imitation" study was "probably" just learning, and not evidence that the dogs imitated the border collie because "they thought he had a good reason" for doing what he did.

    LCK 

    O.K., who are your serious cognitive scientists and what are the citations for these remarks?

    The first author of the original article are J.Topal from the Comparative Ethology Research Group, Hungarian Academy of Sciences.  The second author is R.W. Byrne is from the Scottish Primate Research Group and Centre for Social Learning and Cognitive Evolution, School of Psychology, St. Andrews University and the last, A Miklosi, is in the Department of Ethology, Eotvos University.  Not amatateurs at all. 

    Please before you dismiss the research I mentioned make sure you know what research I am refering to.

    As I said in my first post, the dog imitated the actions of a human, not other dogs.  In addition, I have stated that these articles were published in major peer-reviewed academic journals.  I was an academic historian for awhile, and I know how respected peer-reviewed journals work.  I assume you do also, but there may be readers who do not.  When one of these journals receive a submission, the internal staff go over the article and decided whether they are interested in the article and if it fits their criteria and standards.  Then,  they send the proposed article to major people in the field the research pertains to and asks for for their opinions of the methods and theoritical basis used.  If the reviewers approve of the article it will be published.  If they have major issues with the article it will not be published.

    I have no no knowledge about the internal politics or specific policies of the journal that published this article.  But given that I have found the article referenced in other major publications and indeed, I found the article through a search on Psycnet (a search engine subscribed to my major universities), I beleive it is a respected journal and that their policies meet with the approval of the scientific community.

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  • 03-21-2008 10:27 PM In reply to GoldenAC

    Re: Generalization

     

    It's entirely possible we're talking about two different things. The study I was referring to involved dogs "selectively" imitating another dog's behavior, but as I said, the dogs were cued by their owners.

    LCK 

    "Clicker training has not taught me a whole bunch, other than that people can get wrapped up in fads and catch phrases." Bob Bailey

    "If a lion could talk we would not be able to understand him." Wittegenstein. "If a lion could talk we would understand him perfectly, but we would learn very little about ordinary lions from him."Daniel C. Dennett

    "Dogs don't care who's alpha and who's not. Only emotionally dysfunctional owners and trainers do." Jack Field
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  • 03-22-2008 8:41 PM In reply to GoldenAC

    • ron2
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    Re: Generalization

    I'm going to throw caution to the wind, live dangerously, and go for broke.

    I haven't seen any proof that dogs can't generalize. Even if we are misusing the word, generalization. Maybe it's more accurated to say generalized behavior. But we train for it and expect it. We train and expect heel, sit, watch me, and recall in asundry circumstances and get it, too. Now, some of that can be explained as an emotional or energetic compatibility between us and our dogs but even that goes back to a rule of thumb I had heard growing up. The dog follows whoever feeds him.

    While I have been fond of noting that sit in the house is one behavior and sit in a public place is another behavior, especially for some dogs, to whom context is everything, that does not preclude the dog's ability to generalize. And what about the dog for whom context means everything? If they don't hear the cue the same way everytime, it's a different behavior. Aren't they exhibiting some differential thought or ability, the converse of generalization? The dog knows what sit is. What is different to some of them is having to sit in this public place with these other dogs and/or smells.

    In my own anecdotal way, I see some cognitive processes in dogs. I also see that humans don't always generalize, even as adults. Which brings me to question the value of using humans as a rule of thumb for the ability to generalize. Which I don't guess we can help, much. We are differentiating, but so do dogs. And that, to me, suggests that it is more likely that dogs do have cognitive ability, including the ability generalize. Which I find more important than finding that man is fallible with feet made of clay.

     

    The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb


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  • 03-24-2008 8:16 PM In reply to ron2

    Re: Generalization

    Ron, I wouldn't worry.........you seem to be right in line with current research, and as you said, there is no solid evidence that dogs can't generalize.

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  • 03-25-2008 1:16 PM In reply to ron2

    Re: Generalization

    ron2:
    In my own anecdotal way, I see some cognitive processes in dogs. I also see that humans don't always generalize, even as adults. Which brings me to question the value of using humans as a rule of thumb for the ability to generalize. Which I don't guess we can help, much. We are differentiating, but so do dogs. And that, to me, suggests that it is more likely that dogs do have cognitive ability, including the ability generalize.
     

    I agree that much of human cognitive processes are mechanical and not self-aware. However, when it comes to things like generalizing, I think it depends on how much of a stickler you are for what that means.

    In terms of cognition there are two basic definitions: 1) the process of formulating general concepts by abstracting common properties from a set of variables (which clearly doesn't apply to dogs as they don't have the cognitive architecture for conceptual and abstract thinking), and 2a.) the ability to transfer a response learned in relation to one stimulus to a similar stimulus, or 2b.) the ability to learn something in a certain context and apply it to other contexts as well. To avoid confusion I would define both of these 2nd cognitive phenomena as cross-contextualization, not generalization.

    You also have to remember that when dealing with levels of cognition in dogs, humans, apes, whatever mammal you choose, that neuroscientists and cognitive scientists are now finding that there are pre-cursors built in to the more primitive parts of the brain, which dogs and humans share. These pre-cursors support, and in fact are necessary to the higher forms of cognition, which are shown to take place in parts of the brain that dogs don't have. For instance:

    There seems to be a pre-cursor to language in primitive forms of imitation, mimicry, and non-cognitive forms of expression.

    There seems to be a pre-cursor to a sense of self in an area of the mid-brain diencephalon called the periaquaductal gray*.

    There is clearly a pre-cursor to logical thought in the ability to recognize patterns.

    I would say it's pretty clear that dogs are very capable of the kind of thought generated through these pre-cursors, but not their more evolved constructs. 

    And I think that's why it's easy to believe that dogs are capable of the higher levels of thought because they involve these pre-cursors, that were a step in the evolution of these higher types of consciousness.  We interact with our dogs through language regularly, and they respond as if they understand the meanings of our words. So it's hard not to think that they "understand" symbolic language, because on the simplest level (for below that of conscious thought) they do: they learn to respond to our words. But there's a difference between a learned ability and one that is hard-wired or innate. Also, it's very doubtful that wolves and coyotes give names to one another, but we give names to our dogs, and those names are associated with all sorts of interactions we have with our dogs on a regular basis, and it's hard not to think that dogs have a sense of their own identity when they respond not only to their names, but the names of other dogs they like. Hence we tend to think they must have a sense of self, which is a kind of requirement for first-level cognition, and a subsequent theory of mind. But EEC (embodied embedded cognition) would explain these behaviors quite easily without needing to circumvent all the evidence showing that dogs DON'T have identities, or a sense of self, in anything close to the same way that we do.

    Personally, I think it's fascinating to actually study and read how these abilities developed and evolved, what parts of the brain are involved, and how one can know with a pretty high level of certainty where the cut-off points are, neurologically and behaviorally speaking.

    But maybe that's just me,

    LCK

    *From "Empathy and Consioussness" by Evan Thompson:

    Jaak Panksepp has proposed that the panoply of emotional states we experience can be analysed into certain core affective comportments, probably common to all mammals, that depend on distinct, basic emotional operating systems in the brain, and are tied to an animal’s social and biological relationships to conspecifics and members of other species. These core affective comportments are seeking/expectancy, rage/anger, fear, nurturance/sexuality, social bonding/separation distress, and play/joy. Panksepp hypothesizes that each of these affective comportments is subserved by its own core neural network in the midbrain-diencephalon. Each network has certain key chemical neuromodulators, and all project to an area called the periaquaductal gray (PAG). Panksepp proposes that the PAG serves as the substrate for a primordial sense of self, again probably common to all mammals, because in this area ‘there is a massive convergence of a diversity of basic emotional systems (fundamental value schema), various simple sensory abilities (perceptual schema), and primitive but coherent response systems (action schema)’ (1998b, p. 568). -- "Affective neuroscience: basic emotional operating systems of the mammalian brain,” Jaak Panksepp (1998a,b)

    "Clicker training has not taught me a whole bunch, other than that people can get wrapped up in fads and catch phrases." Bob Bailey

    "If a lion could talk we would not be able to understand him." Wittegenstein. "If a lion could talk we would understand him perfectly, but we would learn very little about ordinary lions from him."Daniel C. Dennett

    "Dogs don't care who's alpha and who's not. Only emotionally dysfunctional owners and trainers do." Jack Field
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  • 03-25-2008 8:38 PM In reply to Lee Charles Kelley

    • ron2
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    Re: Generalization

    Lee Charles Kelley:

    There seems to be a pre-cursor to language in primitive forms of imitation, mimicry, and non-cognitive forms of expression.

    There seems to be a pre-cursor to a sense of self in an area of the mid-brain diencephalon called the periaquaductal gray*.

    There is clearly a pre-cursor to logical thought in the ability to recognize patterns.

     

    I could agree with that. As far as mechanical brain structure, I'm not so sure.

    I can concede that humans hold the top honors in language, symoblic to the nth degree. That dog communication may not be at the same level or complexity, sure, at least as far as how humans define it. But how much of what we call human language is possible only because of the motor control we have. Vocal chords with an incredibly wide range. For example, Geoff Tate, singer of Queensryche, has a 5 octave range. He can go from a gut rumbling low to a glass-shattering high (pardon my superlatives). We have a prehensile tongue and a loose mandibular coronoid process. And we have oppoasable thumbs and control of our digits not matched by any other animal. These tools allow us to express so easily whatever we think and feel. I also agree that humans may have higher levels of thought. I don't think my dog can do single and multi-variable calculus like I can, but then, I haven't been able to ask him, either.Wink

    On the other hand, state of theoretical correctness aside, look at Stephen Hawking. He can't use his fingers or his voice. And he has been the premier cosmologist, as much of a celebrity and superstar as Einstein ever was. So having those motor skills may not mean that much, after all. In the same breath, just because dogs can't belt out "I awoke on impact, under surveillance from the camera eye searching high and low" ("I don't believe in Love" by Queensryche) doesn't mean they can't communicate.

    But time will tell.

    And thanks for a well written post, even if I don't always agree, at least your posts are easy to read.

     

    The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb


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  • 03-26-2008 12:05 AM In reply to ron2

    Re: Generalization

    ron2:
    And thanks for a well written post, even if I don't always agree, at least your posts are easy to read.
     

    Thanks, I try.

    ron2:
    just because dogs can't belt out "I awoke on impact, under surveillance from the camera eye searching high and low" ... doesn't mean they can't communicate.

    I never said they can't communicate. I stated several times (ad naseum to some here, I'm sure) that they can, but that there are two types of communication, one which is done with the intent to report information, and which requires the use of symbolic language thru words, written, spoken, or signed. The other is the expression of an internal state (mental or emotional), and which in humans may be expressed through symbolic language, and may also have an intent to communicate, but is most often done through things like body language, which is usually done unconsciously. For instance, a carpenter, working alone, hits his thumb with a hammer. So he lets out a string of words, which are certainly spoken. Probably quite loudly. But is he reporting information or just expressing an internal state? Now that's a situation where symbolic language is being used, but to what purpose? To relieve his internal tension, or to report information?

    Here's another example: A young woman comes to a party where she doesn't know many people. As she comes in she smooths her dress and looks around the room a bit nervously. That's body language. Is she intending to report information to the people there? Very likely not. Then some time passes and a nice young man has engaged her in an interesting conversation. She smiles and nods her head, she occasionally touches her arm or flips her hair back. Here she may or may not be conscious that she's communicating through body language (she probably is quite aware of it to some extent). So in both cases she's communicating. In the first instance she's doing so with no conscious intent at all. In the second, there's some thought and deliberation behind the behavior, but she's still only expressing her internal states ("I'm attracted to this guy."), and is not reporting specific information. To do that she needs to use words, written, spoken or signed. And while she's communicating something, and doing so with intent, she's not really reporting information. That would require her to say something like "I think you're attractive," or "Are you here with someone--a girlfriend?" etc. Yes, she may have a desire to let him know she's attracted to him, but that can be done with or without words, meaning it falls into the second category of communication. That's where dogs are basically stuck, because they simply have no ability to communicate symbolically.

    Much of a dog's body language is done without the dog even knowing what he's expressing. Certainly, he can learn that he can get what he wants if behaves in such-and-such a manner. To paraphrase Eugene Morton of the National Zoo (when talking about bird calls), it's not so much about what the dog is trying to get you to understand, it's what he's trying to get you to do. Here's an example: A dog comes into the living room where his owner is watching TV, reading, or talking on the phone. The dog is holding a leash in his mouth. Clearly the dog is communicating something. But is the dog (a) reporting that he wants to go for a walk? or (b) trying to get his owner to take him for a walk? I go for (b) because it comes from a lower faculty of consciousness and satisfactorily explains all aspects of the behavior. So it obeys Morgan's canon.

    Going back to Eugene Morton, he says that to really understand the sounds that birds make (which some people think of as a kind of language), it's best not to try to understand what they mean, but what they accomplish (which is what I paraphrased above). If we translate that to canine body language we can see that it's not about what the postures and facial expressions mean to the other dog (or human), it's about what they get the other dog (or human) to do: to back off, to come closer, to play a game, to not play so rough, etc. Yes, their body language can be remarkably complex, But is it done with the conscious intent to report information, or is it simply the unconscious expression of emotion?

    Maybe I'm wrong, but I think if we're to truly understand our canine companions it's important for us to make this distinction. 

    LCK 

    "Clicker training has not taught me a whole bunch, other than that people can get wrapped up in fads and catch phrases." Bob Bailey

    "If a lion could talk we would not be able to understand him." Wittegenstein. "If a lion could talk we would understand him perfectly, but we would learn very little about ordinary lions from him."Daniel C. Dennett

    "Dogs don't care who's alpha and who's not. Only emotionally dysfunctional owners and trainers do." Jack Field
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  • 03-26-2008 6:52 AM In reply to Lee Charles Kelley

    • ron2
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    Re: Generalization

    Lee Charles Kelley:
    it's about what they get the other dog (or human) to do: to back off, to come closer, to play a game, to not play so rough, etc.

     

    And that's a good point. As you might put it, the diadic nature of attraction and resistance. Very binary.

    And, until I can figure out how it was just an emotional state, I will still think my dog communicated coordinate information in the example I have mentioned a number of times.

    There are some things in body position and behavior that mean something to dogs. And yes, they do convey info, even if it's emotional info. Such as dog doing a play bow (I feel like playing and I am no threat). However, I remember recently one person talking about how their dog could such a thing and go after the other dog in a not playing mood (can dogs deceive?).

    Sometimes, when my dog is barking with the neighbor dogs, I will just listen, trying to catalog in my mind, the different tones and inflections, but also including body position. Language, to me, is a musical thing.

     

    The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb


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