Thoughts on food and food rewards

• 03-12-2008 4:12 PM

  In reply to mudpuppy

  corvus Joined on 08-02-2006 Australia (NSW) Posts 2,197 Points 80

  Re: Thoughts on food and food rewards Reply Contact Oh, that's a good analogy, mudpuppy. And something I was going to suggest myself. When Penny sits quietly and politely for the 15 minutes it takes someone to eat a meal in front of her, pack up, and start doing something else, it's because she's ever hopeful that if she's polite she'll get a bite of what the person is eating, or get to lick the bowl. I wouldn't say that was a common outcome, and if several people are eating she picks the one she thinks most likely to yield food to sit in front of. It's almost never me! I swear she goes through this complex analysis of everyone in the room and how they feel about dogs in order to choose the person most likely to feed her. In everyday life, though, she often gets "You wish, Penny" and doesn't get a smidgeon. I think she is still a little disappointed that it didn't work this time, but I don't think she was expecting it to work, just hoping. Four and Spiritdogs, even Penny will lick a plate with all the other dogs without snarking! In that situation, I think snarking would take precious time away from madly licking. I don't think the other dogs see competition when they eat side by side in most cases, but I think Penny does, and that's why she eats too fast and maybe why she steals as well, who knows. Like I've said, her food obsession dulls when she's on her own, and I think that's good evidence that some of the problem is a sense of competition in her. Even Pyry, who is more of a problem starting aggression over food than Penny, I think sees opportunities rather than competition. He gets whatever he wants, so he doesn't compete for anything with the other dogs. Melissa's family: Penny - corgi, Kit - wild hare, Bonnie - rabbit, Kivi Tarro - Finnish Lapphund "She's always talking about her hare."

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• 03-12-2008 5:12 PM

  In reply to mudpuppy

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,497 Points 365

  Re: Thoughts on food and food rewards Reply Contact People who accidentally teach their dog that he'll get a particular type of reward are people who get dogs who do cost-benefit analyses and decide to not-comply at times- if every time you call your dog you give the dog the exact same reward, whether that be affection, liver, or a ball, you will find yourself with a dog who decides that this smell over here is much better than the reward he'll get for coming when called at this moment. An undermotivated dog. That has not happened yet when focusing on social and affection rewards.  Honestly, I will admit if it does happen because that would be my observation and a very important experience to understand the why.  If that is happening then maybe some other part of the training protocal is amiss. It's the difference between a candy machine and a slot machine- if you put money in the candy machine and nothing comes out, people get angry because they have learned to "expect". If you put money in a slot machine, and nothing comes out, people keep playing and feel happy because they have not learned to "expect", they have learned to "hope". In the above analogy, the commonality is "machine".  The dog has to learn what type of machine the dog is dealing with.  Back at square one where the dog gets disappointed until the dog knows to apply "expect" or "hope".   In the absence of clear understood communication, in training, the dog is going to make a mistake and that mistake has to have something negative attached to it so it is defined as a mistake.  The negative is a correction because the dog is not suppose to go there.  How can anyone deny this correction does not exist. Muddpuppy, from what I see of your post, you always assume there is no beginning to training.  There always prerequisite to the class.

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• 03-12-2008 5:43 PM

  In reply to Pomeranian <3

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,497 Points 365

  Re: Thoughts on food and food rewards Reply Contact Pomeranian <3: Yeah exactly, that's why I really don't get this whole "dissapointment" thing... dissapointed about what? It's training, it's fun, treat or no treat. That's why I kept pointing out "humanizing" the dog because to say "oh I didn't give them a treat and they were dissapointed" that is such a HUMAN reaction; I personally think the dog had no idea what was going on and didn't respond. I started with click & treat. But every now and then I just do click & "good girl" or click & then we'll play. And this is teaching her the CLICK itself is a good thing. So soon enough it will just be "click" and she's not going to be dissapointed that she's only getting a click verses a treat, toy, etc. I've conditioned her to know the click is praise and that's all a dog should want during training... is some type of praise. Once my dog is motivated enough we will take away the "click" and I highly doubt she'll be dissapointed... it will just be a learning curve. I believe members here should be given more credit for their dog knowledge.  The preaching that an observation of being "humanizing" is a mistake of the poster when that observation is in fact based on the behavior exhibited by the dog.   There is no way to point out the Poster's mistake without applying the correction and that correction should be sufficient enough for the Poster to learn.  If the correction is ignore, then there is no learning.  We are discussing what is taking place in that "learning curve".  That learning curve is not all positive and not all fun and that is why i think that term was introduced. It is very important to know what is taking place within a training protocal when rehabbing dogs so that the negatives can be minimized or avoided.  I believe, a dog will not learn if the dog is too excited or gets too frustrated and the emotion of disappointment is very much a part and parcel of that training.

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• 03-12-2008 8:07 PM

  In reply to Pomeranian <3

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,497 Points 365

  Re: Thoughts on food and food rewards Reply Contact Pomeranian <3: Food obsession? WELL that's something that could happen and could be broken as well. That's why we teach dogs "leave it" or "wait". You have to teach the dog that the "jackpot" or "food" is not the goal here... listening is. Food is a great luring tool to BEGIN with. Oh, you must expand on this.  Interesting how a dog could expand the meanings of obedience commands taught.

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• 03-13-2008 7:13 AM

  In reply to DPU

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,497 Points 365

  Re: Thoughts on food and food rewards Reply Contact Here is a story  from Karen Pryor.  Right away I think Karen's story is slanted toward her favoritism of this particular training method, but the lesson I got out of this story is the Owner knows the dog and how much this experienced dog can endure.  And, secondly people interpret behavior differently.  There is no doubt in my mind that the dog experienced disappointment and frustration in getting to the final objective of the game. "giving a seminar for John Fisher's associates, and I asked if someone wanted to demonstrate the box game on stage. A woman came up with her nice Border collie. The audience chose the behavior—going under a chair. After getting clicked once for interacting with the chair, the dog tried a dozen or more different behaviors related to the chair, to the point where the audience was crying out, "Stop it, the poor dog, that's enough." But the dog seemed calm, and the owner knew its capacity; the decision was hers. Next, the dog poked its nose under the chair, got a click, peered under the chair, click, understood the behavior, skipped its treat, scooted under the chair, and came out with all flags flying! The ratio was challenging, but not too hard for that experienced dog. Every single thing it tried that did not get clicked, it abandoned at once. What we saw was NOT extinction, but a decision, a shift in the search pattern, if you like. The actual behavior—looking for that click—stayed very strong."

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• 03-13-2008 9:11 AM

  In reply to DPU

  Pomeranian <3 Joined on 01-03-2008 MASSACHUSETTS Posts 1,065 Points 545

  Re: Thoughts on food and food rewards Reply Contact DPU: I believe members here should be given more credit for their dog knowledge. I agree! But I enjoy throwing out my theory/method and seeing what others think or can add to it. I enjoy reading this thread because the trainers I work with and know use the same methods as I do... so it's nice to read a different perspective. And when I provoke a response; it is merely to provoke a response. Because I simply do not understand where placing the correct "emotion" comes in. DPU: The preaching that an observation of being "humanizing" is a mistake of the poster when that observation is in fact based on the behavior exhibited by the dog. There is no way to point out the Poster's mistake without applying the correction and that correction should be sufficient enough for the Poster to learn. If the correction is ignore, then there is no learning. Well my question overall is, at what point do you decide your dog is dissapointed? The emotion "dissapointed" is associated very negatively in my mind. At no point during my training do I find my dog "dissapointed." Rebelling? Yes. Learning Curve? Yes. Trial & Error? Yes. But at all times she is wagging her tail very bubbly and eager to please me. DPU: We are discussing what is taking place in that "learning curve". That learning curve is not all positive and not all fun and that is why i think that term was introduced. It is very important to know what is taking place within a training protocal when rehabbing dogs so that the negatives can be minimized or avoided.  I believe, a dog will not learn if the dog is too excited or gets too frustrated and the emotion of disappointment is very much a part and parcel of that training. So therefore this is where we disagree. I believe I have conditioned my dog to believe/know that training/please me is a fun game & activity for her. No matter how many times she "messes up" she still wants to continue and throws behaviors at me. Over excitement is almost a display of "fast thinking" to me. Eager eager eager and throwing behaviors at you. This is why I enjoy a CLICKER so much. Once I "CLICK" she STOPS (freezes position)  then I praise/give her a treat. At that exact moment my dog LEARNS ahhh okay THAT'S what I do to get the reward I want. At some point the reward won't always be food and we would have done so much repetition that it is not needed; at this point I would consider my dog "trained" and conditioned to do what I ask. Tools or no tools my dog is very eager to please me. Stubborn puppy at times (wanting to just play/fool around) but I never ever sense an emotion of "dissapointment." When you speak of your own dogs, or dogs you have worked with, feeling dissapointment are you PREVENTING them from doing something? When I was teaching Kayla that a  knock at the door means you sit on this piece of tape on the carpet she would wiggle/squirm and be all eager to just race off to the door, but once again I don't think she was dissapointed that she couldn't. I would like see "example" of "dissapointment" to you. Because if your method works, it works; I just want to understand it better. It's not going to make me change my own methods (since mine work great as well) but I'm willing to see another perspective.

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• 03-13-2008 9:15 AM

  In reply to DPU

  Pomeranian <3 Joined on 01-03-2008 MASSACHUSETTS Posts 1,065 Points 545

  Re: Thoughts on food and food rewards Reply Contact DPU: Pomeranian <3: Food obsession? WELL that's something that could happen and could be broken as well. That's why we teach dogs "leave it" or "wait". You have to teach the dog that the "jackpot" or "food" is not the goal here... listening is. Food is a great luring tool to BEGIN with. Oh, you must expand on this.  Interesting how a dog could expand the meanings of obedience commands taught.  Well I don't find it that interesting... I've known dogs my whole life that LISTEN to their masters without any training tools/rewards. If you asked your dog to come to you right now... would they come? Why? Well they want to listen to you right? They want to obey you right? I believe food is a "tool" that helps lure the dog into ACTION but is not necessarily the primary focus of the dog FOREVER... Does that make sense? And how do we teach this? Well with great training techniques and steps. TPR (time, patience, and practice).

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• 03-13-2008 9:18 AM

  In reply to DPU

  Pomeranian <3 Joined on 01-03-2008 MASSACHUSETTS Posts 1,065 Points 545

  Re: Thoughts on food and food rewards Reply Contact DPU: Here is a story  from Karen Pryor.  Right away I think Karen's story is slanted toward her favoritism of this particular training method, but the lesson I got out of this story is the Owner knows the dog and how much this experienced dog can endure.  And, secondly people interpret behavior differently.  There is no doubt in my mind that the dog experienced disappointment and frustration in getting to the final objective of the game. "giving a seminar for John Fisher's associates, and I asked if someone wanted to demonstrate the box game on stage. A woman came up with her nice Border collie. The audience chose the behavior—going under a chair. After getting clicked once for interacting with the chair, the dog tried a dozen or more different behaviors related to the chair, to the point where the audience was crying out, "Stop it, the poor dog, that's enough." But the dog seemed calm, and the owner knew its capacity; the decision was hers. Next, the dog poked its nose under the chair, got a click, peered under the chair, click, understood the behavior, skipped its treat, scooted under the chair, and came out with all flags flying! The ratio was challenging, but not too hard for that experienced dog. Every single thing it tried that did not get clicked, it abandoned at once. What we saw was NOT extinction, but a decision, a shift in the search pattern, if you like. The actual behavior—looking for that click—stayed very strong." The only people in this story that are displaying dissapointment is the AUDIENCE. The dog kept going... the dog kept trying... the dog was EAGER to figure it out and please their master. Where/how was the dog dissapointed?

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• 03-13-2008 11:28 AM

  In reply to DPU

  mudpuppy Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 5,639 Points 100

  Re: Thoughts on food and food rewards Reply Contact   you always assume there is no beginning to training. huh? what does this mean? of course there is a beginning. Let's say I just brought home my dog from the shelter. The dog isn't barking, so I click and give the dog supper. The dog spontaneously sits, so I click and toss the ball. The dog doesn't chew on the couch legs, so I praise. How is the dog "disappointed"?  from his perspective he's getting great stuff just for doing things he did spontaneously. So after a few days you have a dog who is offering all sorts of "good" behaviors in your presence in the HOPES that he'll win a prize- he's sitting, he's lying down, he's moving into heel position, he's not-barking, he's not-eating-the-couch, he's poking the target with his nose. Now you're ready to put behaviors on cue, to start free-shaping all sorts of tricks and behaviors, and you have a dog who is willing and able to offer all sorts of behaviors in HOPES of getting something good. Where is the "correction"? where is the "disappointment"? where is the "withholding"? you don't seriously believe that a dog who has been trained to sit on command gets "disappointed" when he spontaneously sits and doesn't get food, do you?

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• 03-13-2008 6:04 PM

  In reply to mudpuppy

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,497 Points 365

  Re: Thoughts on food and food rewards Reply Contact mudpuppy: So after a few days you have a dog who is offering all sorts of "good" behaviors in your presence in the HOPES that he'll win a prize- he's sitting, he's lying down, he's moving into heel position, he's not-barking, he's not-eating-the-couch, he's poking the target with his nose. Now you're ready to put behaviors on cue... Wait a minute, how did it go from "for every spontaneous behavior offered, you get a treat everytime"  to HOPE or randomly treating.  The dog has awareness the first time that something changed, something is up because he did not get a treat like before.  Surely you must see a smidgen of disappointment in that transition.  And if a smidgen is acknowledged then individual dogs will react differently.  That is what happened in the extreme case of Marvin the hound.  Anyway, go back to Karen Pryor's own story.  The audience saw it and the dog owner recognized it because if there was nothing to recognized, the owner would not have had to make the CALL to continue the exercise.

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• 03-13-2008 9:45 PM

  In reply to DPU

  Cita Joined on 12-13-2006 CT Posts 4,665 Points 735

  Re: Thoughts on food and food rewards Reply Contact I guess my philosophy boils down to the idea that sometimes, you just gotta suck it up. Dogs will sometimes face disappointment. Children will sometimes face disappointment. If the dog isn't disappointed that it's not getting a food reward, it will be disappointed that it's not getting an affection reward, or a toy reward. And as long as this isn't taken to extremes (i.e. taking out a steak and holding it above the dog's head), this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Children who never face adversity or disappointment are known as "spoiled" and are usually a pain in the neck to be around. I think it's not giving dogs enough credit to think that they wouldn't be able to cope while humans can. IMO, the disappointment a dog feels by not getting a reward every single time it does something correct is much less than what it would miss out on (sense of purpose, fun, companionship, achievement) by not doing training exercises. I think where you and most others here differ, DPU, is that you think using food rewards always makes this feeling of "disappointment" worse, in all dogs, and most people feel differently.

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• 03-13-2008 10:37 PM

  In reply to Cita

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,497 Points 365

  Re: Thoughts on food and food rewards Reply Contact Cita: I think where you and most others here differ, DPU, is that you think using food rewards always makes this feeling of "disappointment" worse, in all dogs, and most people feel differently. No, you are wrong.  Where others differ from me is the claim that it DOES NOT exist, never existed, will not ever occur, not in the beginning learning stages, throughout the learning, or even like with Karen Pryor's story where the experienced dog SEEMS ok.  We can't talk about "this feeling of "disappointment" worse" until that fundamental fact is acknowledged.

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• 03-13-2008 10:42 PM

  In reply to DPU

  Cita Joined on 12-13-2006 CT Posts 4,665 Points 735

  Re: Thoughts on food and food rewards Reply Contact I don't think anyone is arguing that a dog wouldn't prefer to have a reward than to not-have a reward. (Otherwise it wouldn't be a reward, would it?) However, I think most (myself included) feel that this not-having-a-reward feeling is not such a bad thing, and is outweighed significantly by the more positive feelings also associated with training, such as having a bond with the human, understanding what is being asked, having something to actively think about, "having a job," getting attention, having an opportunity to get rewarded for behavior, etc.

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• 03-13-2008 11:04 PM

  In reply to Cita

  DPU Joined on 09-19-2006 Indiana Posts 4,497 Points 365

  Re: Thoughts on food and food rewards Reply Contact "not have a reward" is not neutral and a dog can experience the same level of the pleasure as it does with the opposite, displeasure.  For my SA hound, the feelings were skewed because the displeasure brought about a very intense reaction.  In time and through repeition but without escalating the reward, I agree it may eventually outweighed significantly the positive feeling associating with the training.  It comes down to how much you want to and how much the dog can endure the "not have a reward" or displeasure.

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• 03-14-2008 7:11 AM

  In reply to DPU

  corvus Joined on 08-02-2006 Australia (NSW) Posts 2,197 Points 80	Re: Thoughts on food and food rewards Reply Contact I think that's a good point and it was sort of what I was getting at with the idea that some rewards are just too exciting for some dogs on an everyday sort of basis.  Melissa's family: Penny - corgi, Kit - wild hare, Bonnie - rabbit, Kivi Tarro - Finnish Lapphund "She's always talking about her hare."
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