Prerequisites to Agility Question - Update on pg 3

• 03-13-2008 10:22 PM

  In reply to AgileGSD

  Ado Joined on 01-10-2008 Posts 131 Points 110

  Re: Prerequisites to Agility Question Reply Contact    How do you suggest dealing with dogs in class that run off between obstacles or don't come when they are called if they are to be only worked off lead?   If a dog has the proper foundation skills and is never allowed to self reward on the equipment, having them run off or get the zoomies isn't an issue.  And if that does become an issue, then all training on the equipment is stopped asap and the dog and handler is taken back to working on more focus and control.  If I have to have a dog on leash for agility training, then that dog isn't trained well enough to be doing the equipment in the first place, imo.  We also have to be aware of why a dog is doing those behaviours. Is it a stress behaviour?   If so, training should be taken back to the level that the dog isn't stressed or reduce the distractions etc.  Or does the dog completely understand its job? If a dog and handler team is having focus issues at the start of a class (and its not usually a problem), then we can assume the dog is having a 'oh I feel great today' , the team leaves the agility ring and works on burning off some of that excess energy and working on focus, then rejoining the class.  Or we can assume that either the dog or the handler is having a 'bad' day, in either case, going down a level or two of training and expectations usually works.  I always find it so interesting to watch how dogs react to the moods or excitment of the handlers.  Amazing how a handler can get frantic or over the top themselves and then wonder why their dog isn't performing as they would like lol I have one student that when she gets like that, I can see her dog's mind leave the building/ring.  The second I remind her to settle down, calm down and to take the pitch out of her voice, her dog doesn't put a foot wrong.

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• 03-14-2008 1:29 AM

  In reply to Ado

  AgileGSD Joined on 09-16-2007 Posts 451 Points 0

  Re: Prerequisites to Agility Question Reply Contact Ado: If a dog has the proper foundation skills and is never allowed to self reward on the equipment, having them run off or get the zoomies isn't an issue.  And if that does become an issue, then all training on the equipment is stopped asap and the dog and handler is taken back to working on more focus and control.  If I have to have a dog on leash for agility training, then that dog isn't trained well enough to be doing the equipment in the first place, imo.  We also have to be aware of why a dog is doing those behaviours. Is it a stress behaviour?   If so, training should be taken back to the level that the dog isn't stressed or reduce the distractions etc.  Or does the dog completely understand its job?   All that is great but not real typical of dogs and students in most basic agility classes I've attended. As for my 4H classes - the first one or two levels of USDAA's Junior Handling program is on lead and that is what is used in our state for 4H. It works for the members and it worked for my "just for fun" agility students years back too.

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• 03-14-2008 3:07 PM

  In reply to AgileGSD

  mudpuppy Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 5,492 Points 100

  Re: Prerequisites to Agility Question Reply Contact I think it's incredibly dangerous to the dog to work obstacles on lead- ever seen a dog get his leash caught while running an a-frame and get violently hung? I have. Also seen dogs get so frightened by pulling a jump standard down with a leash that it took weeks to get them to consider approaching a jump. If you can't keep your dogs attention off-lead IMHO you have no business trying any of the equipment. Also counter-productive: you need your dog to learn to move fast and work away from you from the get-go. A dog trained on lead cannot go fast, and cannot work away from you, and you're setting yourself up for a major re-train or a disaster later on. Foundation training should be all about attention and focus and handling and the ability to work off-lead. Once you've got that, you work on each individual obstacle. Once you've got that, then and only then do you start sequencing.

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• 03-14-2008 4:46 PM

  In reply to mudpuppy

  jdata Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 523 Points 2,440

  Re: Prerequisites to Agility Question Reply Contact Could it be that the dogs are really obedient however they have low thresholds in certain situations? I think raising the requirement for the obedience level is sort of unfair that is of course if you are basing it on certificates or actual documentation. My reason? Because while I took obedience lessons back in the late 80s, I did not take any classes for the dogs I have now and I don't plan to do so. So that school would be crossed off my list.  Perhaps the class is too big or perhaps the obedience/learning levels of each handler/dog team are not equal enough? Our instructors switch the dogs around so that all the dogs are on a equal curve. And we've had one dog go out because the majority of the class was moving forward and they were not progressing and another dog come in from another class with an equal learning curve. Our class just seems to be learning at a fast rate and yes, we have a dog go out of control everyone now and then. Our instructor knows the difference between a stressed dog and a dog that just want to blow you off. If you run the class with an iron fist, then agility isn't going to be fun anymore IMHO. I remember the main reason I wanted to do agility and thats the bonding fun experience with the dog(s) on the course in a positive light. And yeah, I want to get some Q's too! I'd be lying if I didn't say that. Sure, I understand why they want to increase the requirement to be fair to others (IOW, all the monetary return value) but you are also screwing over the potential of other students like myself with no paperwork -if that is the case. In the end, I am glad that I read this forum prior to starting agility. When one of the trainers cited that you had to break some of the obedience behaviors taught your dog in order to do agility, I am glad that I started to back off on my dog. At the first day of class, the instructor pointed out what of training/control was required in agility and it was not to be confused with obedience training. She stressed that heavily. You can see the differences with dogs with strict obedience handling - most of the time they think they are in work mode and don't know how to have fun. Ever been to an agility trial held by an obedience club? The atmosphere is sterile and tense and the dogs are zombies as compared to a Kennel club which is lively and the atmosphere is alive.

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• 03-14-2008 11:40 PM

  In reply to jdata

  Ado Joined on 01-10-2008 Posts 131 Points 110

  Re: Prerequisites to Agility Question Reply Contact We have a riot is my classes, they are very relaxed and down right funny sometimes.  I also firmly believe that dogs and handlers that have proper foundations often progress much faster and have success over those that don't. How can a handler have fun if their dog is out of control, missing obstacles, running off, sniffing  and getting the zoomies??  Not to mention the stress, frustration and embarrassment that they feel, which of course just makes the dog worse!

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• 03-15-2008 12:23 AM

  In reply to mudpuppy

  AgileGSD Joined on 09-16-2007 Posts 451 Points 0

  Re: Prerequisites to Agility Question Reply Contact mudpuppy: I think it's incredibly dangerous to the dog to work obstacles on lead- ever seen a dog get his leash caught while running an a-frame and get violently hung? I have. Also seen dogs get so frightened by pulling a jump standard down with a leash that it took weeks to get them to consider approaching a jump. If you can't keep your dogs attention off-lead IMHO you have no business trying any of the equipment. Also counter-productive: you need your dog to learn to move fast and work away from you from the get-go. A dog trained on lead cannot go fast, and cannot work away from you, and you're setting yourself up for a major re-train or a disaster later on. Foundation training should be all about attention and focus and handling and the ability to work off-lead. Once you've got that, you work on each individual obstacle. Once you've got that, then and only then do you start sequencing.   Interestingly I have not had anything occur due to this "dangerous" practice in 9+ years of doing it.  Perhaps you should tell USDAA that it is dangerous and inappropriate to have an onlead Junior Handling class? Or CPE who allows training in the ring on lead for no score with Level One dogs. My 4H students start on lead and are only on lead for the first year because that is the first level of competition in USDAA/4H. That is what they need to practice/know for first year competition.Sorry you don't approve but again, that is something to take up with USDAA.   No I have never seen a dog be "violently hung" on an Aframe with it's leash. Yes occasionally the leash knocks an upright, dogs occasionally knock jumps off lead as well and if they are going to freak about it isn't going to matter if it was on or off lead. I have seen off lead dogs do all sorts of things which could injure them in agility jumping off or falling down contacts, crashing through jumps, knocking tires, crashing into their handler or an obstacle and getting tangled in the chute off the top of my head. My own dog, Jagger managed to catch his foot between the teeter and it's base once at practice. Another time at practice Jagger hit the teeter and it went flat under him because whoever set it up didn't secure the chain. I have seen dog walk planks fall from under dogs as well, having come loose some how. It is not as though the only time something bad can happen in agility is when you're using a leash.  As I stated earlier - we have some FAST dogs in 4H and all were trained on lead and put back on lead routinely if they couldn't behave in a class. These dogs are competive in non-4H venues as well and one is often the fastest dog in his classes at CPE trials. One dog, a husky mix took several years to be reliable off lead in all places but once she was - wow! She was a very fast, accurate dog who naturally worked at a distance. That isn't to say that some dogs don't have speed issues or don't have velcro issues, just that the ones who do tend to be less confident, lower drive dogs who IMO would have those issues anyway. We do work on foundation training with first year members and dogs but generally are teaching obstacles early on as well such as tunnels, tables and simple jump sets.  You seem to think only your way is the proper way to teach agility. You state "First you teach this, then that, then this. Then and only then do you start teachingthis other thing" and training on lead "causes this problem and that problem" as though it is an accepted fact that everyone knows. There are as many ways to teach agility as there are instructors and there many different, yet valid methods.

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• 03-15-2008 12:26 AM

  In reply to jdata

  AgileGSD Joined on 09-16-2007 Posts 451 Points 0

  Re: Prerequisites to Agility Question Reply Contact jdata: Ever been to an agility trial held by an obedience club? The atmosphere is sterile and tense and the dogs are zombies as compared to a Kennel club which is lively and the atmosphere is alive. What a vast generalization LOL  Would be interested to know what behaviors I will need to break my obedience dog of to make him be able to do agility....

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• 03-17-2008 5:25 PM

  In reply to AgileGSD

  jdata Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 523 Points 2,440

  Re: Prerequisites to Agility Question Reply Contact AgileGSD: jdata: Ever been to an agility trial held by an obedience club? The atmosphere is sterile and tense and the dogs are zombies as compared to a Kennel club which is lively and the atmosphere is alive. What a vast generalization LOL  Would be interested to know what behaviors I will need to break my obedience dog of to make him be able to do agility....     Sorry over-generalizing their behavior (But I have been to several trials held by obedience clubs not to be confused with local kennel clubs) but we do have a good canine citizen dog and obedience class attended dog in class. He is an aussie and he is very hesitant to show some enthusiasm. Our instructor told her to break the velcro strap on him, let me him be a dog. When he is in class, he is in work mode which means he is so uptight and attentive to his handler - he doesn't want to break loose of his handler.  The dog always looked back at her if it was OK to be alive. His handler told us that he doesn't play with toys so I offered one of my toys to him and he went nuts over it.  So our instructor got him all fired up and ran the dog in a sequence, it was a different dog and she told him to relax limits and told her this is agility not "formal" obedience. After a couple of runs, the dog started to smile. So the instructor reminded her what she told everybody at the first eight week class. The dog didn't know he was suppose to have fun with his handler.

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• 03-18-2008 12:40 AM

  In reply to jdata

  AgileGSD Joined on 09-16-2007 Posts 451 Points 0

  Re: Prerequisites to Agility Question Reply Contact jdata: Sorry over-generalizing their behavior (But I have been to several trials held by obedience clubs not to be confused with local kennel clubs) but we do have a good canine citizen dog and obedience class attended dog in class. He is an aussie and he is very hesitant to show some enthusiasm. Our instructor told her to break the velcro strap on him, let me him be a dog. When he is in class, he is in work mode which means he is so uptight and attentive to his handler - he doesn't want to break loose of his handler.  The dog always looked back at her if it was OK to be alive. His handler told us that he doesn't play with toys so I offered one of my toys to him and he went nuts over it.  So our instructor got him all fired up and ran the dog in a sequence, it was a different dog and she told him to relax limits and told her this is agility not "formal" obedience. After a couple of runs, the dog started to smile. So the instructor reminded her what she told everybody at the first eight week class. The dog didn't know he was suppose to have fun with his handler.    Many of the agility trials here are AKC OB/Agility clubs, some are agility only clubs. So far I can't say at all that I have ever seen a difference between dogs competing in one vs. the other. Overall CPE trials have a more laid back feel but otherwise, it is a lot of the same people going to all of them any way. Sounds like you must just have an OB club in your area that isn't very good - doesn't mean all OB clubs are the same as that one or that all OB trained dogs are like the Aussie you mentioned.  As for the Aussie - sounds more like a bad/inexperienced agility handler than a problem with the dog's training since the dog worked well as sson as the instructor (experience agility person/trainer) took him. Motivation based obedience training (using treats/toys/games to teach behaviors) compliments agility training very well. Just because a dog has been trained in OB doesn't mean he won't know "it is ok to be alive" or will think he can't have fun with his handler. Of course using overly harsh training methods can sour any dog's attitude but that applies to any venue.  I want an upbeat, happy working dog in any venue and that is what I train for. My training methods actually are very consistent in the different venues - just the behaviors being worked on are different. All training is after all, just teaching behaviors and the dogs don't know the difference between the games you play with them (as in this one is supposed to be "fun" and that one is supposed to be "work"). Teaching X behavior doesn't mean the dog can't learn Y behavior or will ruin the dog's ability to be any good at Z behavior.  Kind of reminds me of the conformation people who think that training a dog in OB will ruin it as a show dog. I find it a bit silly to me that people actually still believe stuff like that.

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• 03-18-2008 10:31 AM

  In reply to AgileGSD

  KarissaKS Joined on 06-01-2007 La Crosse, WI Posts 628 Points 795

  Re: Prerequisites to Agility Question Reply Contact Jdata -- The example you have given is not the dog's fault.  That behavior is NOT due to his obedience training, but rather the way in which his handler views training in general (agility included, apparently).  Some people are really uptight and this transfers to their dogs.  If the handler loosens up and has fun, so will the dog.  If the handler is rigid and demands perfection from their dog and tries to train as though they are in the obedience ring it's not going to work. My friend came from obedience to agility and she learned VERY FAST that the requirements are vastly different.  They are in "work mode" during obedience training & trialing, but agility is nothing but fun, fun, fun.  It has worked incredibly well for them.  It is up to the handler to make the switch; not the dog. Luke -- Lab/Shepherd (1-1-04) Open Versatility, EAC, EJC, TN-E, TG-E, HP-O Kaiser -- Alaskan Klee Kai (12-30-07) Future Agility Star!

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• 03-18-2008 12:26 PM

  In reply to KarissaKS

  VanMorrison Joined on 07-02-2007 Probably North of you... Posts 1,264 Points 770

  Re: Prerequisites to Agility Question Reply Contact Here's an update for you all.... Morrison got his CGC on Saturday so he has that prerequisite under his "belt".  We start Intermediate class tonight but I got an email from the trainer today that is interesting.  She stated that all the dogs/handlers in my class want to do agility so it will be "Obedience for Agility" meaning that a lot of attention will be given to the dogs watching for commands and being able to follow sequences as well as crossovers and such. To me, this sounds like good groundwork to do before equipment is introduced so I feel a little better about the club.  I'll let you all know how the class goes.

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• 03-18-2008 2:17 PM

  In reply to KarissaKS

  AgileGSD Joined on 09-16-2007 Posts 451 Points 0

  Re: Prerequisites to Agility Question Reply Contact KarissaKS: My friend came from obedience to agility and she learned VERY FAST that the requirements are vastly different.  They are in "work mode" during obedience training & trialing, but agility is nothing but fun, fun, fun.  It has worked incredibly well for them.  It is up to the handler to make the switch; not the dog.    People who want good working OB dogs want the dog to think obedience is fun as well :)

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• 03-21-2008 8:28 AM

  In reply to AgileGSD

  mudpuppy Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 5,492 Points 100

  Re: Prerequisites to Agility Question Reply Contact   Perhaps you should tell USDAA that it is dangerous and inappropriate to have an onlead Junior Handling class? Or CPE who allows training in the ring on lead for no score with Level One dogs. I cringe when I see someone bring a dog on lead into a CPE trial. I don't think it should be allowed, way too dangerous. I know they do it to make the handlers feel better- but should we do this at the expense of the dogs health? No, I don't think so.  I'm curious, have any of your "trained on lead" first dogs ever mastered distance challenges later on?  I don't put a dog on the obstacles until I can run him through a course of cones with him thirty, forty feet away from me. I don't want the dog to think he has stay within six feet of me. What a handicap to overcome later. Even novice NADAC demands the dog work quite far from the handler.

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• 03-21-2008 10:59 AM

  In reply to mudpuppy

  KarissaKS Joined on 06-01-2007 La Crosse, WI Posts 628 Points 795

  Re: Prerequisites to Agility Question Reply Contact Actually, NADAC has removed the distance lines in regular agility.  The only time that distance work is tested is in chances -- I believe that the absolute maximum distance line in novice is 10'.  Not hard at all.  It gets a lot harder in open, especially since they've been doing a lot of discrimination at a distance and the dreaded weaves at a distance. Even off lead, I don't know of a single beginner student who would be able to, or even comfortable with any sort of distance work.  Experienced agility competitors with a young dog, yes.  But not someone new to agility. It would be nice if everyone could start their dog off leash on the obstacles, but in a busy agility club with class sizes of 6+ students, often it's just not safe/possible. You are looking at this from the eyes of someone with a lot of training & agility experience.  You have to recognize that the majority of our students do NOT have that background.  When I get an experienced agility person in my beginner class I let them pretty much do what they are comfortable with -- because I know they are there mostly for obstacle introduction moreso than my instruction.  And because these experienced trainers have often done all of their foundation work, yes, most of them are off leash the entire time. Luke -- Lab/Shepherd (1-1-04) Open Versatility, EAC, EJC, TN-E, TG-E, HP-O Kaiser -- Alaskan Klee Kai (12-30-07) Future Agility Star!

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• 03-21-2008 11:38 AM

  In reply to mudpuppy

  agilebasenji Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 2,387 Points 200

  Re: Prerequisites to Agility Question Reply Contact mudpuppy:  I'm curious, have any of your "trained on lead" first dogs ever mastered distance challenges later on?  I don't put a dog on the obstacles until I can run him through a course of cones with him thirty, forty feet away from me. I don't want the dog to think he has stay within six feet of me. What a handicap to overcome later. Even novice NADAC demands the dog work quite far from the handler. Considering that's how we trained dogs 10+ years ago, yep.  My first agility dog (http://forum.dog.com/forums/t/76632.aspx) didn't have much problem getting his Open Gamblers title (back when NADAC had gamblers) before we stopped doing NADAC.  Of course I've never known a basenji who thought he had to stay six feet within mom/dad.  Of course, I'm not training Zpuppy that way, nor did I train the malinois that way, but I also don't have either in class.

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