The independent, willful dog

• 02-18-2008 1:43 AM

  corvus Joined on 08-02-2006 Australia (NSW) Posts 2,150 Points 80

  The independent, willful dog Reply Contact So, I really love breeds that basically give you the finger every now and then when you ask them to do something. Pyry is a prime example. He doesn't care for games or hanging out with his people, and he only cares for treats sometimes. When you ask him to do something, he usually ignores you unless he thinks it might be something he does actually want to do. He can do no wrong in my eyes, even though he's far and away the most difficult dog I've had to deal with. He's a pain in the neck, but I can never stay mad at him. He's just so cute with his little pixie ears and his "I'll do what I want" gruff man attitude. Besides which, if you don't love him for his independence, it's hard to love him at all. So my question is, what do you do with the independent dog? How do you convince a dog whose favourite passtime is hunting small animals or barking at nothing that he should stop hunting small animals and barking at nothing to come and do something less exciting? How do you make yourself fun to hang out with for a dog that isn't very social in the first place and has no problem doing things alone? How do you get them to play with you when they feel like it once a week if that? In short, how do you live with an independent dog? Melissa's family: Penny - corgi, Kit - wild hare, Bonnie - rabbit, Kivi Tarro - Finnish Lapphund "She's always talking about her hare."

  Post Points: 0

• 02-18-2008 8:59 AM

  In reply to corvus

  Jewlieee Joined on 03-23-2007 MI Posts 5,743 Points 4,170	Re: The independent, willful dog Reply Contact Well my independent dog is very food motivated, so I do a lot of trick training with her. She seems to enjoy that - probably because there's food involved. what you do is find something that the dog enjoys that you can take part in too. Tracking, running, whatever.
  	Post Points: 0

• 02-18-2008 10:08 AM

  In reply to corvus

  mudpuppy Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 5,497 Points 100	Re: The independent, willful dog Reply Contact try the book 'When pigs fly". It's all about how to convince an independent, willful dog to enjoy obeying your commands.
  	Post Points: 0

• 02-18-2008 10:36 AM

  In reply to mudpuppy

  jennie_c_d Joined on 09-10-2007 Southeast Georgia Posts 8,710 Points 75

  Re: The independent, willful dog Reply Contact I've heard very good things about that book. Isn't that the one that the author has obedience-titled Bull Terriers, or some similar breed?   With my independent, willful dog.... well, she turned velcro. I don't know how and I don't know when, but she wants to be RIGHTNEARME, now. It's odd, but wonderful. It happened sometime in the course of training her for competition obedience. She learned that being near me is a VERY GOOD thing. She's still willful. She still gives the "F YOU" look, sometimes IN the ring. She wears a t shirt that says 'Go Fetch Yourself'. That just about sums up her attitude towards most people, LOL. I can't say I'd have it any other way. I loooove a dog that really thinks for itself, regardless of the level of training or velcro or any other factor. Terriers are my group. I love them all.  Mischeif N Miracles, CGC, RE (PRT, 10/13/2003) Libby's Monkey N The Middle (Chinese Crested, 1/26/2008) Teenie Weenie at the Bridge (Dachshund, ???-12/28/2007)

  Post Points: 0

• 02-18-2008 7:41 PM

  In reply to jennie_c_d

  willowchow Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 6,321 Points 300

  Re: The independent, willful dog Reply Contact I've sort of stopped all that at this point.  Willow is always in the same room with me.  If she wants to come up on the couch, she lets me know.  If she wants to play she will grab a ball.  I just follow her cues.  I found trying too hard made her more aloof, more powerful (in her own head, LOL). But, if she's given a specific command that she knows she must follow it thru.  She's not allowed to ignore. If I really, really want to engage her in play and it's not when she really wants to play I've got to up the game excitement quite a bit to get her going---run away with the toy, throw the ball really high or crazy.  When I was training her commands we had to use very good treats, there were no other options if we wanted her to want them.

  Post Points: 0

• 02-18-2008 9:26 PM

  In reply to corvus

  Kim_MacMillan Joined on 11-21-2006 Eastern Canada Posts 1,105 Points 200

  Re: The independent, willful dog Reply Contact I too love those dogs who love to think for themselves, and have their own ideas of how the world should be! corvus: How do you convince a dog whose favourite passtime is hunting small animals or barking at nothing that he should stop hunting small animals and barking at nothing to come and do something less exciting? Well, since I have a girl whose favorite acivity is chasing/hunting small animals, I can relate! The first step for working with an independent breed is to have a strong, healthy relationship, IMO, and making yourself fun to be around. I did that by teaching check-ins first. Being around mama gets you random and fun rewards. I did this off-leash in an enclosed area first, then on a long line, then on a longer line, and eventually with no leash/dragging leash. I also use Premack - that is, reinforcing lower probability behaviours with higher probability behaviours. It works very well. But basically by building that strong foundational relationship and then strong behaviours in confined areas, you have to just work slowly upwards in distractions as the dog is ready. The other goal of course is knowing what is your dog's favorite thing in the world, the hierarchy of rewards at any given moment, and use them to your advantage. I have used "chasing a bird" or "treeing a squirrel" as a reward, and they are very strong reinforcers for my guys! corvus: How do you make yourself fun to hang out with for a dog that isn't very social in the first place and has no problem doing things alone? How do you get them to play with you when they feel like it once a week if that? The thing about really aloof dogs is that I don't force myself on them. If/when they want something,they'll let me know. And that's fine with me. I don't feel the need to push my "love" or "trust" on them, often doing so with such a dog only pushes the dog further away. That's where it comes down to knowing your dog, and responding to that dog as an individual rather than a "one size fits all" approach. When working at the kennel, we had certain "known" dogs that were quite independent and non-caring of what you thought of them, and usually these dogs ended up enjoying playing with me within a day simply by letting them be their own dog and not trying to make them into any other personality. When they needed/wanted something, I fulfilled it and you build trust in that manner.

  Post Points: 0

• 02-18-2008 9:42 PM

  In reply to Kim_MacMillan

  westiegirl3 Joined on 11-05-2007 Posts 546 Points 1,365

  Re: The independent, willful dog Reply Contact My middle Westie, Treasure, is very independent and likes to hunt small animals.  She can become really focused on whatever activity she is doing at the moment.  I do things with her that she loves to do, such as playing with special toys.  She also loves it when I teach her new things with treats.  I use the clicker sometimes and she just comes running if she sees it.  You can watch her try to decide what I am going to ask her to do.  Actually, my younger Westie also loves it also when I get the clicker.  They also love to go on their walks and she will come running for that.  So basically, I just try to do things that she finds really fun to do.  It is like the above poster stated, I have just learned what Treasure likes to do with me, and then she is willing to drop what she is doing to come and spend time with me.  Mom to Bell, Gracie, Treasure, Olivia, and Katza--the Cat Sophie--My Heart, My Joy

  Post Points: 0

• 02-18-2008 10:15 PM

  In reply to westiegirl3

  corvus Joined on 08-02-2006 Australia (NSW) Posts 2,150 Points 80

  Re: The independent, willful dog Reply Contact Hmmm. I think a lot of the frustrations we have with Pyry are related to him not being all that suited to my mother, whose dog he is. It's not that they don't have a good relationship, or that they don't love each other, they just don't really like the same things. When I visit, I often take Pyry for a forage in the bush off the paths. It's something he always wants to do, but my mother doesn't ever want to do. She'll stay by the lake throwing balls for Jill and me and Pyry go bush. He gets to follow game trails and pretend he's a hunter. If he finds something interesting, I get in there and try to help him flush it out. I got the impression he appreciated that kind of thing, which was strongly reinforced one day when he had got out of the yard and found a birds nest he wanted badly to get at. When he saw me coming over, he actually ran right over to me, eager for me to help him. Unfortunately, you only have to take advantage of that once to make him resolve never to fall for that trick again. Although maybe if he was my dog and we spent more time together he'd be less suspicious. I also think he got too much freedom too early. My mother was giving him check-in rewards, but he got away from her a few times and the check-ins don't really work anymore. He'll come in for a treat sometimes, but other times he decides he'd rather go do things on his own. He does love tug and little games of fetch, and no one really tries to coax him to play when he doesn't want to. I was just wondering how you go training dogs like that - whether you have to pick your times for when they're motivated, or if you can motivate them yourself.  It seems to me that one of his main problems is that his prey drive doesn't have enough outlet. My mother says she just can't seem to find a way to satisfy him. Long games of tug on his own and long walks in the bush don't do much. He's allowed to get empty food boxes out of the recycling to tear them up into little pieces whenever he feels like it, and then he spends a lot of time in the yard poking around looking for small creatures to harass. If he finds one, that's it. He'll keep at it every time he's outside for days. Melissa's family: Penny - corgi, Kit - wild hare, Bonnie - rabbit, Kivi Tarro - Finnish Lapphund "She's always talking about her hare."

  Post Points: 0

• 02-19-2008 1:44 AM

  In reply to corvus

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 10,140 Points 735

  Re: The independent, willful dog Reply Contact  Some predatory dogs like frisbee as a motivator.  Especially the soft frisbees that they can shake and "kill".  Might be worth a try.  I like "When Pigs Fly" as a resource, too.  But, don't discount food as a motivator for the independent dog.  Just ramp up the value (use tripe or roast beef, not kibbles) and make the training sessions short, but productive.  You were probably right that he got too much freedom too soon.  These are dogs that need convincing that "come" isn't optional, and it can take quite some time on a long line to convince them. Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 19 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

  Post Points: 0

• 02-19-2008 6:52 AM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  ron2 Joined on 09-10-2007 far north central Texas Posts 9,831 Points 500

  Re: The independent, willful dog Reply Contact Shadow has independence bred into him. Out on the snow and ice, he would have to listen to a musher commanding from behind yet stop the whole team if instincts and cues tell him danger is ahead. Dogs can hear better, such as rushing water underneath the ice or a chasm ahead. And smell better, such as a beastie ahead and alert on it. But I think all breeds can show some independence. 1.) I can't see punishing a dog for being what it is. And I'm not sure that independence makes them more biddable to punishment training. 2.) Therefore, motivate the dog. And this may require work and investigation. Me, I'm just plain, darn lucky. Shadow likes food, especially human food. It is worth calculating pi to get some of my pork chops. Anyway, the point is, I would find what is truly motivating to the dog and ramp it up. As of consequence, Shadow is close to us humans. I firmly believe that dogs learn from reinforcement, not punishment. Maybe the independent dogs are simply keyed into their own reinforcement, so well. But isn't a less independent dog also following their own reward as defined by whatever they get from you?   The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb

  Post Points: 0

• 02-19-2008 7:23 AM

  In reply to ron2

  pumaward Joined on 09-10-2007 Central Vermont Posts 668 Points 45

  Re: The independent, willful dog Reply Contact You mentioned that he loves tug and that he has a strong prey drive. In my opinion, that's a perfect combination. Maddi never really loved food when I first began +R type training. I could have the yummiest food on the planet, but the smell of squirrel was always way more appealing. I read in Culture Clash  that I could use play has a reward alternative. Maddi loves tug (it is a predatory game after all) and I taught her a decent recall using it as the reward. I also played games of chase with her... there was one catch though. When I called her, she had to come or I wouldn't play. She wasn't (and still isn't) going to get a reaction from me if she runs away unless I give the cue ("I'm gonna GET you!"). Her reward for coming when called is that I chase her.  I unfortunately have limited offleash options to work on recall and obedience. I'm stuck on a tennis court, but things could be worse. I'm working on finding a long line that I can use without the risk of her jerking me off my feet if she sees a vole 50 yards away *sigh.* We abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect. - Leopold

  Post Points: 0

• 02-19-2008 9:39 AM

  In reply to ron2

  mudpuppy Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 5,497 Points 100

  Re: The independent, willful dog Reply Contact And I'm not sure that independence makes them more biddable to punishment training. these are actually the type of dog that is LEAST likely to respond to punishments. You punish one, he decides you suck and refuses to have anything to do with you in future. Or freezes up and refuses to do anything. That's how they get the label "willful, independent,stubborn" because they simply don't respond to traditional punishment-heavy training methods. But they do respond to modern motivational training methods, play training, NILIF programs.

  Post Points: 0

• 02-19-2008 8:14 PM

  In reply to mudpuppy

  ron2 Joined on 09-10-2007 far north central Texas Posts 9,831 Points 500

  Re: The independent, willful dog Reply Contact mudpuppy: these are actually the type of dog that is LEAST likely to respond to punishments. You punish one, he decides you suck and refuses to have anything to do with you in future. Or freezes up and refuses to do anything. That's how they get the label "willful, independent,stubborn" because they simply don't respond to traditional punishment-heavy training methods. But they do respond to modern motivational training methods, play training, NILIF programs. That's been my thinking, too. Some dogs will take all the pokes, and prods, and pops in stride and may not even feel them very much, theoretically. Other dogs, if you are lucky, instead of biting, will simply turn tail and run out of range or run off. I don't know the stats but I wonder, especially in the past, how many dogs that actually turned on their owner and how many times was that following a particular painful or frightening punishment? In talking about independence, I also think of wolves. Let's pretend for a moment that dogs are like wolves. Let's pretend that they are descended from wolves. Now, let's see a human go out there and "finger-bite" or scruff and pin a wolf. With paramedics and a wolf wrangler with a tranq dart standing by. I'm not implying that anyone here is punishing that hard but how well would it work to try one of these corrections that are suppose to imitate dominance work on a truly independent canid. Just theoretical musings.   The way you treat your dog in this life determines your place in heaven. - chukchi proverb

  Post Points: 0

• 02-19-2008 11:42 PM

  In reply to ron2

  corvus Joined on 08-02-2006 Australia (NSW) Posts 2,150 Points 80

  Re: The independent, willful dog Reply Contact That is so true mudpuppy and ron. Pyry has never been trained by punishment as far as I'm aware, and god help the person who tries. I think it highly unlikely he'd hurt someone, but extremely likely that he'd shrug and head for he hills and never come back. We have a lot of trouble with him picking up on tricks. Like if he's out barking and someone makes him think there's food on the offing back at the house and then shut him in and don't give him any food, that just makes him think twice before believing there might be food the next time. He often holds off doing something he's been asked to do until treats are produced so he can be sure he will actually get something. Mother bribes him a lot, which means he always decides if what he's doing is better than a possible treat or not. The problem with using play as a reward is that he's not a particularly playful boy. You'd be lucky to entice him into a game once a week, I'd think. Jill plays all the time, but even when she's tearing around the yard with Penny, Pyry isn't interested. At the moment he's got some kind of infection that has resulted in sore feet and joints somehow, so he can't do anything much right now. Thanks for the tips, though. I think the independent dog is neglected a little in some of our discussions. Like corrections. I'm pretty confident Pyry would respond quite negatively to corrections. He's always, always thinking what's in it for Pyry. He rarely just accepts things and never right off the mark. He's always looking for what will most benefit him in every situation. I would call him calculating, even. Penny often just reacts and realises later that something was good or bad, whereas Pyry decides before he acts and acts on what he thinks will be best for him.   Melissa's family: Penny - corgi, Kit - wild hare, Bonnie - rabbit, Kivi Tarro - Finnish Lapphund "She's always talking about her hare."

  Post Points: 0

• 02-21-2008 6:51 PM

  In reply to corvus

  agilebasenji Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 2,387 Points 200

  Re: The independent, willful dog Reply Contact Well, it's not like I have any experience with independent, willful dogs, (stop laughing!) but I'll try to help corvus with what I've done.   So my question is, what do you do with the independent dog?  Conformation, agility, lurecoursing, rally, pet therapy, sofa sitting, reading, movie watching and napping.  Somedays more of one than the other.  Having basenjis suits me because when it's cold out, there's no point in going outside for more than a quick potty trip.  I don't like cold or windy days, nor do my dogs.  (Although Tri-ing has done coursing in the snow.)  I suspect hairy dog owners feel obligated to go out and train when it's really cold out.    How do you convince a dog whose favourite passtime is hunting small animals or barking at nothing that he should stop hunting small animals and barking at nothing to come and do something less exciting?  Uhm well, don't have a problem with the barking thing, but the truth is, I am never going to be more exciting than chasing rabbits to the basenjis.  Just not going to happen.  Brindlewonderkid has more prey drive than any dog I've ever met.  At 11 years old, I think I'm starting to see the edge of that knocked off.  But when we train, we usually train in my agility or dog yard.  With my puppy, I take her leash off, feed her a treat (or two) THEN say "bye-bye" which is her cue to run off.  I feed her the treat so that the leash coming off is NOT the cue for her to run off, which I inadvertently trained.  So, now I'm in the process of un and re-training her behavior.  I've been doing things this way for almost a month and it's really starting to pay off.  We're in the agility yard, Z's run off, and I have a chance to set up what I want to train and she has a chance to chase rabbits and/or pee.  I give her a chance to do stuff, but ON MY CUE.  Sometimes I call her, treat, the say "bye-bye" sometimes I call her, treat and we start the "agility game".  I use HIGH value treats - meatballs, steak, roasted chicken, etc.  The agility game is FUN!  That's my responsiblity.  We have special agility toys (ONLY seen in context of training and I have control of them) and reward often.  Quit when you're ahead.  Quit when you're ahead.  Quit when you're ahead.  Today's training looked like this - I did weaves first b/c I want a fresh excited dog for that.  I take things slow and make it easier if I need to.  Ideally the dog should NEVER make the same mistake 3 times.  Then we did contacts (dogwalk today; easier and she really loves them), then we did some jump work (started pinwheels today), then we did the teeter (again a contact she loves it) then we just did some play.  Somewhere in there I think we did some flat work, but that might have been yesterday.  And of course we play while training.  And make sure you Quit when you're ahead.   How do you make yourself fun to hang out with for a dog that isn't very social in the first place and has no problem doing things alone?  I have these way special toys that we can play lurecoursing with and/or tug with, I have way good food that I'm generous with, I make funny squealing noises and run in unexpected patterns, and I don't do anything for long peroid of time.  And I try not to correct the dog (sometimes we do have "try again" but I do this is a happy voice.)  What dog wouldn't LOVE that?  And, if this dog doesn't want to join my agility party, he/she can sit in the expen while I have an agility party with someone else.    I've got 3 other dogs on the sideline just waiting to play this game.  Yea, any of my dogs can decide NOT to play, but they don't get to go off and hunt or do much if they don't want to play the agility game.    How do you get them to play with you when they feel like it once a week if that?  While I've found it easier with a puppy, you can train your dog to play with toys/you.  I have agility toys that are the best, most wonderful toys on earth.  They are not where the dog can play with them when he/she decides.  They are MINE!  and I get to decide when they come out.  I have a rabbit skin, a squeeky tug, a blue bird that chirps on a leash (our "coursing" toy) and a couple of pouch toys that I can stuff food in them.  See, I told you they are the best, most wonderful toys on earth.  (And that's key too.  My attitude.  I may not be more exciting than chasing prey, but giving an agility field with no bunnies, I am the best thing out there.  And those toys?  You just wish you could play with them little pup.  Well, if you're good and play my game I might let you.)   In short, how do you live with an independent dog? All in all, I find it pretty easy.  How does one live without one?

  Post Points: 0