The Role of Reinforcement (Reward)

• 01-22-2008 8:16 AM

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 11,723 Points 1,020

  The Role of Reinforcement (Reward) Reply Contact  Hopefully, we can also have a parallel thread discussing the role of reinforcment in training.  Possible topics for discussion: Who picks the reinforcer, the dog or the human? Variable schedules of reinforcement Accidental reinforcement of a behavior chain Secondary reinforcers Etc.   Have fun!!!!    Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 20 1/2 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog In memory of Mike, please become an organ donor today. "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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• 01-22-2008 8:36 AM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  glenmar Joined on 09-10-2007 The Florida Panhandle Posts 13,483 Points 405

  Re: The Role of Reinforcement (Reward) Reply Contact Great idea! Who picks the reinforcer?  In my home, it's pretty typically the dog.  Some work wonderfully for praise, a hard head rub, some for food (ok...alllll will work for food, but still have other higher value rewards), fetch is it for some.....a cuddle for others......I try to find which works BEST for each individual dog, what motivates him/her the most.  Theo loves to run and chase the other dogs chasing the ball, but has absolutely no interest in getting it himself.  HE would rather I sit down and do a really rough head rub....he LOVES that.   A house without fur is not a home. Glenda ,

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• 01-22-2008 9:40 AM

  In reply to glenmar

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 11,723 Points 1,020

  Re: The Role of Reinforcement (Reward) Reply Contact  In my house, some of the dogs' favorite reinforcers, aside from interactions with the human) are: Sequoyah - Flippy Flopper FRISBEE (the green one), food (cheese, roast beef, anything soft and smelly), tennis balls Sioux - liver brownies, salmon brownies, licking the bottom of my coffee cup Maska - food, any food (well, he is a hound, after all) Fergie - Charley Bear treats, tripe      Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 20 1/2 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog In memory of Mike, please become an organ donor today. "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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• 01-22-2008 9:45 AM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  glenmar Joined on 09-10-2007 The Florida Panhandle Posts 13,483 Points 405

  Re: The Role of Reinforcement (Reward) Reply Contact I'll ask you this question Anne.  It came up on the punishment thread.  Apparently "eh eh, no bite" and a redirection to an appropriate chew thing is considered postive punishment.  That being the case, how would a person raising a litter of foster pups go about teaching the whole bunch of them that chewing on foster mommy isn't nice, without punishment?  The "correction" is gentle and loving followed immediately by a toy to chew on, but if that's considered punishment, is there another option? The toys are always there and available.  But I'm thinking of the scenerio where 7 pups are laying by my chair and suddenly decide that my feet/legs/ankles look a whole lot more appealing than said toy. A house without fur is not a home. Glenda ,

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• 01-22-2008 2:14 PM

  In reply to glenmar

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 11,723 Points 1,020

  Re: The Role of Reinforcement (Reward) Reply Contact glenmar: I'll ask you this question Anne.  It came up on the punishment thread.  Apparently "eh eh, no bite" and a redirection to an appropriate chew thing is considered postive punishment.  That being the case, how would a person raising a litter of foster pups go about teaching the whole bunch of them that chewing on foster mommy isn't nice, without punishment?  The "correction" is gentle and loving followed immediately by a toy to chew on, but if that's considered punishment, is there another option? The toys are always there and available.  But I'm thinking of the scenerio where 7 pups are laying by my chair and suddenly decide that my feet/legs/ankles look a whole lot more appealing than said toy.   Well, some people just let the pup chew on them until the pup backs off, then C/T.  I don't have a problem with an interruption for that particular behavior, since puppies do it to one another as part of normal play.  But, I don't use English if I do that - I simply yelp as if puppy bit my ear too hard.  The normal behavior is that the puppies stop play for an instant, then resume (presumably with a lighter bite).  The process, during normal play, gets repeated many times, resulting a gradual lessening of the bite pressure (until the pups are mouthing each other harmlessly as they play).  Most humans want it to go faster.  That's why some of them opt so quickly for punishment, I guess.  There is also one school of thought that says if you slather butter on your hand, you teach puppy to lap you rather than bite.  I don't know about you, but I hate greasy hands and don't really want my hound slurping me every day (the girls might be more ladylike about the dogslime LOL).   Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 20 1/2 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog In memory of Mike, please become an organ donor today. "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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• 01-22-2008 2:21 PM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  FourIsCompany Joined on 07-30-2007 Posts 4,738 Points 1,035

  Re: The Role of Reinforcement (Reward) Reply Contact spiritdogs: The process, during normal play, gets repeated many times, resulting a gradual lessening of the bite pressure   But isn't that the very definition of punishment?   Definition: Punishment is a term from Psychological Learning Theory that has a precise meaning; it refers to something that causes a behavior to lessen in intensity. There is nothing that is intrinsically punishing. A thing is called punishing if, when it is applied, it results in the reduction of behavior that you want to reduce.   LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself) Click Daily to Give Free Food and Care to Animals: http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

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• 01-22-2008 2:22 PM

  In reply to FourIsCompany

  houndlove Joined on 08-28-2006 Pittsburgh, PA, USA Posts 4,054 Points 995	Re: The Role of Reinforcement (Reward) Reply Contact Yes, it is negative punishment, which clicker trainers do use.  Cressida and her best friends:
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• 01-22-2008 3:33 PM

  In reply to houndlove

  FourIsCompany Joined on 07-30-2007 Posts 4,738 Points 1,035	Re: The Role of Reinforcement (Reward) Reply Contact houndlove: Yes, it is negative punishment, which clicker trainers do use.   What's negative about yelping? That's adding something to the environment. LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself) Click Daily to Give Free Food and Care to Animals: http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3
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• 01-22-2008 3:41 PM

  In reply to FourIsCompany

  AthenaBear Joined on 01-15-2008 Posts 58 Points 15

  Re: The Role of Reinforcement (Reward) Reply Contact What I have been doing and what seems to be working (and what has worked for me in the past), is when she begins biting on me I make an unhappy sound...similar to a yelp... and pull away from her or put her off of the couch. Usually she will then lick me instead of bite. I am trying to discourage biting as much as possible. I have a baby coming in April and I don't want her thinking its ok to bite at all. [url=http://pregnancy.baby-gaga.com/][/url

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• 01-22-2008 3:42 PM

  In reply to FourIsCompany

  houndlove Joined on 08-28-2006 Pittsburgh, PA, USA Posts 4,054 Points 995	Re: The Role of Reinforcement (Reward) Reply Contact I thought you were referring to the stopping of play, which is removing something. Cressida and her best friends:
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• 01-22-2008 3:53 PM

  In reply to houndlove

  FourIsCompany Joined on 07-30-2007 Posts 4,738 Points 1,035

  Re: The Role of Reinforcement (Reward) Reply Contact Nope. The removing of play would be a consequence of the yelp, and not something Spiritdogs did, but something the dogs did as a result of her yelp. The yelp is something added to the environment that results in the behavior lessening. In other words, punishment. spiritdogs: Who picks the reinforcer, the dog or the human? The dog. if the behavior doesn't increase, it's not a reinforcement. LSTM (Laughing Silently to Myself) Click Daily to Give Free Food and Care to Animals: http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces?siteId=3

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• 01-22-2008 4:12 PM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  corgipower Joined on 09-10-2007 new jersey Posts 792 Points 0

  Re: The Role of Reinforcement (Reward) Reply Contact spiritdogs: Who picks the reinforcer, the dog or the human? The dog for the most part, although if the dog views multiple things as reinforcers, some stronger than others, then I select which to use at any given time. The dog also determines what is high, low and medium value. I then can select a high medium or low value reward to use at any given time, based on what my dog likes, depending on what I am trying to accomplish in the training. Proud member of the tenth place CISRA 2008 team!! tweleve.org corgipower.com My Dog Votes!

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• 01-22-2008 4:50 PM

  In reply to FourIsCompany

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 11,723 Points 1,020

  Re: The Role of Reinforcement (Reward) Reply Contact FourIsCompany: spiritdogs: The process, during normal play, gets repeated many times, resulting a gradual lessening of the bite pressure   But isn't that the very definition of punishment?   Definition: Punishment is a term from Psychological Learning Theory that has a precise meaning; it refers to something that causes a behavior to lessen in intensity. There is nothing that is intrinsically punishing. A thing is called punishing if, when it is applied, it results in the reduction of behavior that you want to reduce.     Absolutely, but if you stop looking for "gotchas" long enough to really get to know me, you'll find that I do use punishment occasionally, especially when it's this benign.   I have never said otherwise on this forum.  My first inclination is to use positive techniques, however, and while I used this mild punisher with Sioux, Sequoyah was trained with the clicker, and neither dog mouths me. Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 20 1/2 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog In memory of Mike, please become an organ donor today. "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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• 01-22-2008 4:55 PM

  In reply to houndlove

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 11,723 Points 1,020

  Re: The Role of Reinforcement (Reward) Reply Contact houndlove: I thought you were referring to the stopping of play, which is removing something.   It is, then you are correct.  I assume that FIC is referring to the verbal "correction", however.  If you simply stop play, without making any noise, yours is an accurate assumption.  An operant response is followed by the removal of the appetitive stimulus (in this case, play), which constitutes negative punishment (-P) Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, CGC, TDInc. Maska, CGC, TDInc. Sequoyah, CGC Fergie, Retired Lap Dog, Age 20 1/2 Dancer, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog In memory of Mike, please become an organ donor today. "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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• 01-22-2008 5:34 PM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  sillysally Joined on 09-10-2007 Indiana Posts 3,826 Points 45	Re: The Role of Reinforcement (Reward) Reply Contact The yelping thing worked really well for Jack.  I think that I can count on one hand how many times he "puppy bit" both DH and I....  ~Christina~ Sally the Pibble Mix Jack the Lab "Fifteen men on the dead man's chest- Yo-ho-ho, and a bottle of rum!"
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