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Possible Cushings any advice

Last post 01-13-2008 11:18 AM by westiegirl3. 25 replies.
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  • 01-10-2008 8:52 AM

    Possible Cushings any advice

    Im pretty positive Mattie my Westies has Cushings. She is 8 1/2 years old and we have seen something brewing with her for some time now. We did the  complete test yesterday and she stayed at the vets for over 8 hours. We should have the results back today. Mattie has all the classic signs of drinking water excessive.... urinating a lot and wanting to eat eat eat....My Vet has taken a special interest in Cushings disease dogs and is working with a Doctor at some Unniversity that specializes in this.... I can't remember who she mentioned...........

     Iv researched all about Cushings and my question is this....

     Im reading that the side effects of the med's can be far worse than the disease.

     I ran onto this which is more of a natural suppliment.

    Supraglan for Cushing's disease in dogs

    • Effective natural treatment for dog Cushing's disease
    • Improves adrenal functioning
    • Reduces symptoms of Cushing's disease
    • Restores skin health
    • Promotes healthy coat, stops hair loss
    • Reduces thirst and urination
    • Safe and vet-approved
    • 1 bottle is a 2-month supply for most dogs

     

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  • 01-10-2008 12:29 PM In reply to terrierlover

    Re: Possible Cushings any advice

    The vet called... its showing neg for Cushing but she is going to have them run and even more exclusive test again to see....  The problem she is showing is very dilute urine.... more dulute than WATER... she said water must be going right thru her and her bladder must be full all the time... We need to find out what is causing this.... Blood work for diabetes and other functions all looked good..... But something is clearly going on....... The signs point to cushing to me... I would think her urine be dilute from all the water she drinks....

    My vet said we need to figure out why her body is telling her to drink so much she said this is complicated to explain.... I will wait for the second test to be ran.... if I don't like what IM hearing Im going to take her to the speciality clinic next week.....

    Just curious if anyone has delt with issues like this.....

     
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  • 01-10-2008 12:52 PM In reply to terrierlover

    Re: Possible Cushings any advice

    Unfortunately yes- -- Billy's headed for another Cushings test next week.

    My early answer on Cushings is yes -- the treatment is worse than the disease.  The regular veterinary treatment is to literally get the adrenals to stop producing cortisol (the body's own steroid) by killing part of the gland itself with the drugs.  So ultimately ... altho you can manage it for a long time, you just run out of time.

    It's the one illness that I have long decided if I EVER had a dog with it, we would treat with homeopathics.  It IS a body balance problem, and homeopathics tend to be good for that kind of thing anyway.  You might want to GET and read "The Nature of Animal Healing" by Dr. Martin Goldstein. 

    Homeopathy is very very different from other natural methods and you have to understand it a bit to understand how it can help so differently.  GET THAT BOOK -- it's amazing.

    That being said ... this also sounds like renal failure problems, and yes, I've been there done that with two dogs. 

    1.  Are you seeing ANY nausea??  I mean ANY reluctance at all to eat anything that is typically enjoyed???  Any turning away to then devour something ELSE?    Starting great guns on food only to then shake her head and walk away almost at the bottom of the bowl but then be 'hungry' later?

    2.  Just a blood panel might or might not show much.  You need a sterile urine draw and a complete urinalysis (Antech is now showing micro-albuminaria which is one of the pre-cursors to renal failure).  You also need the test for albumin in the urine specificially.  Even testing for minute amounts is helpful. 

    You then compare blood results (and get a whole Super Chem panel -- so you can see pancreatic results and everything - don't just have a senior blood panel done) with urinalysis results.  To see if the protein is high in the urine and low in the blood and other things.

    3.  Fast her before the blood and urinalysis.  They've got to get enough concentrated urine to do the test, and you need a very accurate blood test as well.  (man, you're reading my LIFE Here right now, know that??? *sigh*)

    Now IF you're looking at early renal failure -- then my best advice is TCVM.  FAST.  There are Chinese herbs that are superb to help the body balance in early renal failure.  We caught Foxy's at the very early part and KEPT IT LEVEL for the last 2 1/2 years of his life.  That's unheard of in regular veterinary medicine.  Once a dog shows ERF it progresses ... FAST usually (and faster in smaller dogs *sigh*). 

    The teapills I'm talking about are Zhu Gui and You Ghi -- (Left Side Replenishing and Right Side Replenishing) -- and you alternate them .. You Ghi is given in the morning and Zhu Gui is given at night. 

    Now acupuncture will help BOTH Cushings and Renal problems.  Just because I said homeopathy above doesn't mean I wouldn't use TCVM at all -- they can compliment each other a great deal.  (I know she knows what I'm talking about from prior conversations, but for those of you not familiar "TCVM" is Traditional Chinese Veterinary Medicine -- and those Chinese herbals are STRONG and good medicine -- THIS HELPS!!)

    Gee I'm sorry -- I'm sorry we both have to know so much about this stuff.  I've got something going on with Billy too and by gosh I'm GONNA FIND IT.  (Determined face -- man, I am NOT gonna let this slip by me with this dog!)

    The other thing you might think about is an ultrasound before you go a whole lot further. 

    Let me know ... Billy's got a big gonzo vet appt for next week Wednesday (Dr. Bailey's gone all week -- so all I can do right now is fret *sigh*)


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  • 01-10-2008 1:27 PM In reply to calliecritturs

    Re: Possible Cushings any advice

    calliecritturs:

    .  Just a blood panel might or might not show much.  You need a sterile urine draw and a complete urinalysis (Antech is now showing micro-albuminaria which is one of the pre-cursors to renal failure).  You also need the test for albumin in the urine specificially.  Even testing for minute amounts is helpful. 

    You then compare blood results (and get a whole Super Chem panel -- so you can see pancreatic results and everything - don't just have a senior blood panel done) with urinalysis results.  To see if the protein is high in the urine and low in the blood and other things.

    3.  Fast her before the blood and urinalysis.  They've got to get enough concentrated urine to do the test, and you need a very accurate blood test as well.  (man, you're reading my LIFE Here right now, know that??? *sigh*)

     Hi Callie we did all this.....

    My Vet has that one other test she is going to have the lab do with the blood that was drawn yesterday to possible see if we are missing cushings somehow.

    No cortisole (sp) spillage into her urine..No UTI.. No protein.... No gluscose.... bloodwork on the kidneys looked good....etc.... They injected her early in the morning and began the 4 hour blood draws.... Mattie had fasted as well..... her urine isn't concentrate.....any ideas what this could be???

     She has been so hungry ..... Mattie has never been a begger at all... She would eat and that was that.... Now she wants to eat 3 times a day and run in the kitchen when she hears me getting something.... SO NOT HER at all...... her signs have been.. HUNGER... THRISTY.... and PEE PEE PEE

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  • 01-10-2008 7:06 PM In reply to terrierlover

    • loretta
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    Re: Possible Cushings any advice

    You probably already did this, but, has her thyroid been checked?  My dog had the same symptoms and that is what it was.

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  • 01-10-2008 7:54 PM In reply to terrierlover

    Re: Possible Cushings any advice

    I am so sorry to hear about Mattie.  I had a Westie (Sophie) in 2006 that had the exact same symptoms.

     I do not think the vet that I took her to knew what to look for, performed a test that lasted over night, and Sophie passed away the next day.  She did not pass away from the illness, but because of the test performed.  Towards the end of the test, when she was already critical, my daughter called a vet in Atlanta for advice.  This vet said that they had seen a dog just prior to this incident with the same symptoms.  That dog had Diabetes Insipidus, which is NOT the same Diabetes that most people think about.  But it was too late for Sophie.  Please ask your vet to check for Diabetes Insipidus. 

    I continue to miss Sophie so very much and now wish I had taken her to Atlanta instead of where I took her.  I do know that I did do the very best I knew at the time for her. 

    I wish the very best for you and Mattie.  Please keep me updated. 



    Mom to Bell, Gracie, Treasure, Olivia, and Katza--the Cat
    Sophie--My Heart, My Joy
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  • 01-10-2008 8:38 PM In reply to terrierlover

    Re: Possible Cushings any advice

     Kim; I don't have any advice but wish the best for Mattie and hope the vet can diagnose this very soon.

    Life isn't about waiting through the storm; it's about learning to dance in the rain.

    Janice
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  • 01-10-2008 10:04 PM In reply to jessies_mom

    Re: Possible Cushings any advice

    I'll continue to think on it - still sounds like early renal problems to me -- the body demanding water because it's like a rough form of dialysis for the body to flush itself out with water.

    The TCVM exam (and I'm not sure you found a good TCVM vet last time --but it sure would be worth a shot) will tell you more because of how the kidney pulses react.


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  • 01-10-2008 10:38 PM In reply to westiegirl3

    Re: Possible Cushings any advice

    westiegirl3:
    check for Diabetes Insipidus. 

     

    Yes I will ask tomorrow.. What is so strange is she doesn't act sick or anything..... I will call tomorrow.. I will make notes when talking to her and go over this and a few things Callie mentioned..I will keep you guys up to date when I hear how the second test went....

     Im very fortunate to have a great speciality clinic I can take her to and will do so if I don't get the answers I want tomorrow.....

     

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  • 01-10-2008 10:51 PM In reply to terrierlover

    Re: Possible Cushings any advice

    Westiegirl3 question...

     How long was this going on with your Westie??? Mattie doesn't seem sick was your Westie really sick?? Can you fill me in on the details a bit more if you don't mind please... Thank you so much

      I did some research and this article sounds like Mattie.... Im calling a 8 am to go over this with the vet...

     

    Diabetes Insipidus

    Definition

    Diabetes Insipidus is a completely different disease from diabetes mellitus. In extreme cases, both of these diseases can occur together.

    Diabetes Insipidus is a disorder of water balance. The animal is unable to concentrate urine, so the volume is very high and the urine is dilute. “Insipid” means tasteless --referring to the dilute urine. This illness is caused by lack of the hormone ADH (antidiuretic hormone) which concentrates urine. This can be because the body is not producing enough of this hormone or because the animal’s kidneys do not know how to use the hormone. Therefore the amount of water taken in is not balanced with the amount of fluid the animal urinates.

    Symptoms

    • Increased thirst/drinking
    • Increased urination
    • Often increased urination even if he or she isn’t drinking a lot
    • Urine will be very dilute and clear

    How using ThePetCheckup regularly can help

    Consistent abnormal readings on ThePetCheckup tests can be an indication of diabetes insipidus. If this is suspected, your veterinarian may want to do further testing.

    If the animal’s kidneys are working fine and there is a lack of the hormone ADH, treatment usually involves giving the animal the hormone in the form of a spray or drops.

    As with most imbalances, early detection provides the key to being able to provide effective treatment for your canine or feline.

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  • 01-11-2008 5:42 AM In reply to terrierlover

    Re: Possible Cushings any advice

    Sophie did not show any other symptoms and was only sick for maybe a month.  I had been out of work for several months prior to her illness because of an auto accident.  She started shortly after I started back to work and I orginally thought she was having seperation anxiety relating to me going back to work.  I was concerned, of course, and took her to the vet. 

    The vets orginally did blood work because I was concerned about Diabetes Mellitus.  They did the full panel, and it was not Diabetes mellitus, this was one of the first things they checked, because of my concern.  They did a full blood panel.  They were also concerned that it was the beginning stages of renal failure, it was not. Sophie only passed away because something went terribly wrong with the last test they did.  They did a Water Deprevation Test.  Her electrolytes became very abnormal and her fever became very high.  It was not the illness that caused her death--something went very wrong with the procedure.  If you did not know about her problems, she seemed healthy in every other way.  My family only knew about it because I told them about it.  They probably even thought that I was over exagerrating. 

     It could be one of several things.  I just mentioned the Diabetes Insipidus, because the vet in Atlanta said that sometimes it gets overlooked and it occurs morre than people realize.  They had only just recently had a dog with the same exact symptoms and that dog did have the Diabetes Insipidus.  After this occured, I researched the disease and found in my research that it occurs more than people realize also.  Supposedly there is medicine that can be taken for it.   I truly hope that you find the real problem, whatever, it may be.  I just wanted to make sure she was checked for that along with all of her other diagnostic tests.

    Please keep us informed.  You and Mattie will be in my thoughts and prayers. 



    Mom to Bell, Gracie, Treasure, Olivia, and Katza--the Cat
    Sophie--My Heart, My Joy
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  • 01-11-2008 10:58 AM In reply to westiegirl3

    Re: Possible Cushings any advice

    westiegirl3:
    They did a full blood panel.  They were also concerned that it was the beginning stages of renal failure, it was not. Sophie only passed away because something went terribly wrong with the last test they did.  They did a Water Deprevation

     

     Oh that makes me so sick just sick to hear this....... Did they admit to doing something wrong????

     I talked to the vet this morning... this Diabetes Insipidus test what we will get back today. It can be complicated as well as she says there are 2 kinds of Diabetes Insipdius..... So I will keep you posted. My Vets are good darn good but if they can't pin point it I will again take her to the speciality clinic next week.

    Thanks for sharing your story. I know that has to be hard ..... To think something they did went terribly wrong :(

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  • 01-11-2008 11:45 AM In reply to terrierlover

    Re: Possible Cushings any advice

    terrierlover:

    They did a Water Deprevation

    I just got Matties results back... Yes its Diabetes Insipidus. I told her about Sophie and she said that is a very DANGEROUS test that isn't used anymore.... She said a Dog iwth Diabtetes Insipidus can't be without water for more than 4 to 5 hours and after that the dog becomes dehydrated and can die.....

    My vet still wants me to do a couple urine catches for documentation and we are putting her on the meds. My vet and I went back and fourth cause Im very strong with how I want to treat my dogs.... LOL But they respect me a lot cause they know I research and Iv seen a lot of sick dogs......

    Thanks Westiegirl3 for jumping in a telling your STORY.... you helped to educate me and get the ball going much faster.....so Thank you Thank you that is why this site is so fabulous to have access to so we can all share and learn and help each others dogs....

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  • 01-11-2008 1:05 PM In reply to terrierlover

    Re: Possible Cushings any advice

    Glad you got a diagnosis.  Hopefully now you can start working toward getting your dog better.

    ~Steph



    "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein



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  • 01-11-2008 4:31 PM In reply to terrierlover

    Re: Possible Cushings any advice

    I AM SO GLAD THAT I WAS ABLE TO HELP WITH MATTIE!  It hurts so bad, but I am glad that Mattie has a chance because of my little Sophie.  She was truly a wonderful little Westie, and helped me through a very difficult time in my life.  It was like God gave her to me for that reason, and to think that she helped with Mattie.  I am truly happy for you for both you and Mattie.  I know Sophie is jumping with joy, because Mattie was helped--that was just the kind of dog she was.  I hope all goes well with Mattie. 

    I have been very angry with the vet that did the procedure and am having to deal with that.  Not only did he do the test, I honestly believe she was not monitored as she should have been.  Needless to say, I will NEVER use that vet again.  Sophie seemed so very healthy in every other way prior to this, she just had increased thirst and urination.  It all happened so quickly and to think it was only 5 days prior to her third birthday.

     Please, please keep me updated about both you and Mattie. 



    Mom to Bell, Gracie, Treasure, Olivia, and Katza--the Cat
    Sophie--My Heart, My Joy
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