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Help and advice!

Last post 11-11-2007 5:44 AM by janet_rose. 6 replies.
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  • 11-09-2007 3:34 PM

    • MGB
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    • Joined on 11-09-2007
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    Help and advice!

    I have two dogs; a 7 yr. old male shiba inu and a 2yr. old male chiwahwah/shitzu mix.  The 7 yr. old was never neutered until recently; the 2 yr. old was neutered shortly after we got him.  The shiba was a very well trained dog; never messed in the house; never chewed and we would be gone most of the day during the week.  When the younger one came (a surprise from our daughter!) after a few months both began soiling everywhere in the house; on the carpet, up against table legs and chair legs, etc.  We removed the carpet and now have wood floors.  We removed the old table and chairs and replace it with new.  The shiba was neutered.  The little one has since chewed the brand new living room furniture cushions and both continue to soile the floors and have since peed against the new table and chair legs.  When a puppy the shiba was crate trained, but the little one was never.  I have since penned them up inside the kitchen with baby gates (making it easier to clean up messes!)  They hate it!  They run away from me every time they have to be put in there and continue to pee and poop on the floor.  They are walked at least 2x day and are let outside on a long leash several times a day (if not tied, they will run).  I am at my wits end!  Any suggestions?!?!  Thank you.  MGB

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  • 11-09-2007 3:50 PM In reply to MGB

    • denise m
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 12-06-2006
    • Toronto Canada
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    Re: Help and advice!

    I don't think this is a housetraing problem but a marking problem. Although neutering can prevent dogs from marking in some instances, it certainly is not a guarantee. My dog was neutered at 6mon and will never pass up an opportunity to mark anything over 2" tall when he is out for his walk. I can certainly stop him from marking when he is on leash but I'm not sure how you would manage that in your home. Hopefully someone will be along that has dealt with it themselves.  

     

    Good Luck and welcome to the forum! 

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  • 11-09-2007 3:53 PM In reply to MGB

    Re: Help and advice!

    I assume its a marking behavior and not a medical one.  Still my first stop would be the vets just to make sure everything on that front was ok.

    Do they do it while you are there?  If so, I'd be leashing them to you.  And crating when you arent there. Thats just me.  Since they aren't puppies, it will probably be a longer process....

    Jezabel




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  • 11-09-2007 4:08 PM In reply to MGB

    • houndlove
    • Top 50 Contributor
    • Joined on 08-28-2006
    • Pittsburgh, PA, USA
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    Re: Help and advice!

    Okay, two things going on here.

    Thing one is a housetraining issue. Marking is a housetraining issue.  Most dogs mark, male or female, neutered or not. The difference between what your dogs are doing and how my dogs operate (knock on wood that we don't see any regressions like you've had) is that my dogs know to not mark inside the house. Marking is an outside-only activity, but believe me, when they're outside and given any amount of freedom, they mark up a storm. Both dogs need to go back to Housetraining 101. Something has changed in their lives to bring this on, so it's time to back up and have a refresher course. Treat both of them like 10 week old puppies. For housetraining, confining to a kitchen is not going to act like a crate does. When a dog is crated, his den instinct to not mess where he eats and sleeps kicks in. But in the kitchen, they eat and sleep in one corner but can feel free to mess in every other corner. The kitchen is too big of a space for the dog to at first view the whole room as their eating and sleeping spot. Along with crate-training, you must supervise as if these were very young puppies. If someone can not be watching them like a hawk and whisking them outside at the first sign of sniffing in preparation for leg-lifting, they should be crated. It's not forever, just until they can both get with the program that marking does not take place inside the house. Additionally, are you cleaning with an enzymatic cleaner such as Nature's Miracle or Bio-Kleen Bac-Out? You might want to invest in a black-light to see if the dogs are smelling something that you can't see. Get ready though because I've been told by people who have done this that seeing what is actually on your floors and furniture is pretty horrifying.

    Anyway, that brings us to thing two which is your confinement issues. Personally, I think you need to nix the kitchen for now (though that might be a good next step after you've made headway with the housetraining) and go to crates, but either way you need to make the confinement area (crate or kitchen or x-pen) be a happy, wonderful, pleasant place. Feed all meals in the confinement area. Pick a couple of your dogs' absolute favorite toys and put them up and away and only bring them out when the dogs go in to their areas.  For my dogs (who aren't very toy oriented but do love toys that involve food), their Kongs (stuffed with kibble mixed with plain yogurt and then frozen), their Orka Jacks (stuffed with their kibble--we feed meals out of toys like this, not out of bowls), and any raw bones that I might be giving them only come out when they are in their confinement areas. When we release them, we pick those toys up and put them away. The result is two dogs who thunder like a pack of rampaging elephants to their confinement areas the minute they see us get up from the breakfast table in the mornings. Additionally, make sure you aren't only confining when you're about to leave for a long period. Do little "test-runs" where you confine and reward and then 5 minutes later come back. Or confine them while you're still in the house for a few minutes. Let them go in and out, over and over. Just do not ever let them out when they are fussing. That teaches them that fussing works to get released. If they're fussing, wait patiently until that 2 seconds in between fuss-sessions, then let them out.

    Cressida and her best friends:

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  • 11-09-2007 6:53 PM In reply to houndlove

    Re: Help and advice!

    Absolutely awesome post, Houndlove!!

    MGB this is something that happened over time -- the resolution is INCREDIBLY hands-on, time-consuming, and has to be done with 100% consistency.

    I have to echo what she said -- marking IS a house-training issue.  If they are marking IN the house it is "house-training" (which is teaching them NOT to elminate in the house EVER!)

    In order to do this realize you have two dogs who are essentially in competition with each other.  My guess is you probably have a little one who is really "dominant" and the Shiba is saying "Huh?  THAT little thing?  Noooooooooooo, I'll leave MY calling card to fix that!"

    In order to get control of this, frankly YOU have to get "control" of the whole thing.  If I were you I would read everything I could get my hands on about "Nothing In Life Is Free" -- it's a dog training system that helps YOU, as the owner, realize that by letting the dog successfully call the shots, you *are* actually teaching them that they CAN do what they want.

    So essentially you have to get their respect in addition to everything else.

    It can be done.  Truly it can.  But it will change how you see these dogs, how you deal with them, and how you interact with them.  You may think "I can't watch  them ALL the time".  yeah -- you can. 

    Crate ****training**** is probably your job #1.  You can't just leave them in a crate -- it has to be TRAINING.  You feed them in the crate, you give treats in there, you leave them in there literally just a minute without shutting the door with something yummy like the Kong in there.  You change the dog's mind about the crate -- see good things DO happen in there!!!

    But also -- you don't let THEM win.  You don't let the dog out just because it's pitching a fit.  You reward negative behavior and YOU were trained to let the dog what it pleased!!!! 

    Even if you have to stick your fingers in to pet the dog for a second you create a situation where the dog STOPS barking ***BEFORE*** you let them out. 

    you'll learn to be a master at setting up the situation so YOU win -- and that you give the good thing or do the good thing when the behavior is acceptable.  NOT when the dog is doing something 'bad'. 

    It takes a long time and it takes patience -- but it CAN be done. 

    But don't chase the dog around the house.  NOT EVER.  That's a game only a dog can win. 

    Instead - put a leash on **each** of them and leave the leashes on until you are satisfied that the dog will 'come' when you call first time every *single* time.  If that dog won't 'come' to you for ANY reason then that dog needs to be on leash even IN the house so it is ultimately under your control 24/7.  If you chase the dog, he wins -- foregone conclusion.

    You will also be surprised -- a dog ON LEASH even in the house knows inately that he's "busted".  It will change behavior right away -- because they know you can now get hold of them.  You have suddenly tipped the scales in your own favor.

    And if you have to tie those leases TO you until you get the house-training issues resolved fine.  But I have, at times, left a dog to drag a leash for months until the dog decided that listening TO me was the path it would take.  You don't have to be mean, you don't have to yell -- just let them drag a leash.  It's a marvelous equalizer.

    "The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart."
    Helen Keller



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  • 11-09-2007 7:08 PM In reply to MGB

    Re: Help and advice!

    Happily age is not an issue with crate training Smile it may take a bit longer with the older kid to retrain but it is not impossible, btw I have had "surprizes" from my kids for years so I understand totally . At any rate I would do the following, first start crating once again, feed ONLY in the crates , every time they go into the crate they get a cookie and don't always make them stay , sometimes it's a simple "crate up for cookie" moment and then off you go , no strain no stree, say dogs won't go in?? again , not a problem, put thier food dishes in thier crate and CLOSE the door... allow them to want to go inside.  Make crates a happy and safe place. NEVER a place of punishment.  Keep spray bottles of professional doggie odor remover around and when an accident happens scold the accident, not the dog. They don't really connect to the mess, so saying "OMG what did YOU do???!!!!" won't make a dent, but saying " YECKKKKK How nasty !!!" etc makes the dog as unhappy with the messes as you are, they remember you being unhappy at things better than themselves, no idea why, clean and treat the areas promptly. Never leave dogs uncrated , take them in and out constantly and never , ever leave them unsupervised. IF you can catch them in the act then you can scold till the cows come home and they will respond a bit better. Also if you have "distractors" water pistols, cans with coins taped inside  etc that you can use when you catch them in the act all the better.   A noisy can tossed near by will shock a dog without them connecting it to you , you say nothing just let the noise do the correction.  Have you tried bitter apple on your woods??  also like any sulfa based oils as the taste is nasty enough to discourage most dogs... remember they aren't destroying your new furniture , they are carefully antique'ing it !! Good Luck !!

    Bonita of Bwana

    Bonita of Bwana
    AKC Rhodesian Ridgebacks
    Champions, Therapy Dogs and Awesome Companions
    To learn more about Rhodesian Ridgebacks on a Positive and Ethical Site visit us at ,
    http://www.bwanakennel.com/

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  • 11-11-2007 5:44 AM In reply to MGB

    Re: Help and advice!

    You have gotten some good advice.  Here is my suggested way of house training:

    http://community.dog.com/forums/p/65518/515008.aspx#515008

    It is written for pups, but much of it applies to adults, too.

    One thing I have not seen mentioned for adult male dogs is belly bands - diapers for males.  Examples:

    http://malteserescue.homestead.com/MaltShopPages/BellyBamds.html
    http://www.petorphans.com/bellybands.html
    http://www.decotogs.com/bellybands/bellybandinfo.htm

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